RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[bledredwine]

Top PER

Jordan 31.71
James 31.67
Jordan 31.63
James 31.59
Jordan 31.18
Jordan 31.14
James 31.10


Top 5 seasons BPM
Jordan James
13.0 13.2
12.0 11.8
11.9 11.7
11.2 10.9
11.2 10.9

Top 5 seasons win shares
Jordan James
21.2 20.3
20.4 19.3
20.3 18.5
19.8 15.6
19.0 14.5

Top 5 seasons DWS
Jordan James
6.2 6.5
6.1 5.7
5.6 5.3
5.4 5.2
5.4 4.7


Top 5 seasons VORP
Jordan James
12.5 11.8
11.4 10.3
10.8 9.9
10.6 9.8
10.4 9.4


Jordan regular season winning pct 65.9
James regular season winning pct 64.5

Jordan playoff winning pct 66.5
James playoff winning pct 63.8

Jordan against 60 win teams in the playoffs 7-2
James against 60 win teams in the playoffs 3-5

Jordan is the greatest player i have ever seen and he clears James in accolades and advanced stats

This is why I always post in and love these threads. Jordan’s stacked the deck and it’s almost unfair to debate from his side. You can literally debate 5-6 or more posters without much effort. It gets really unfair when you include best seasons lists and highest performances lists.

Jordan has 7 of the top 10 playoff scoring averages of all time. James, 0.

Jordan has 19 out of the top 100 gamescores, James 3. Defensive consistency isn’t even close nor is DRTG.

Back to LeBron beating the 2016 Warriors I see in the post to which you replied, who were obviously not even the best GSW team ever, that being the 2017 team who presented him with rather more problems.

Exactly. Steph had been hobbled and wasn’t himself since that unreal regular season. Adding KD… now that was the strong team and we saw how that panned out. But whatever narrative desired is what’s chose, apparently.

[SlimShady83]

Is this the same topic as the big-ass stickied GOAT thread at the top of the board or something else is going on here? I'm super groggy and almost merged it but maybe I'm confused lol.

It's Sunday morning for me, I just woke up and saw this, thought what did you do Bisme, what did you do? LOL.

[SlimShady83]

Let's see if we can figure out the consensus on who's a top 10 guy of all time, as of today (Jokic/Giannis/Wemby/Luka all obviously have a shot at it)

I will start with this-KAJ, MJ, LBJ, Shaq, Duncan really have to be in the top 10
Few of us saw Russell and Wilt play, but let's have both of them as locks as well, somewhere in the top 10

That leaves 3 spots-who do you have?

For me it's Magic, Bird, Hakeem, with Kobe/Curry just outside. Who you got?

First thread Is here ... Take a look at Poll. viewtopic.php?t=2393113

This Is the 2nd thread for all goat talk ... (main purpose of this thread Is to help out mods so they don't have to deal with a thousand goat threads per day/week and they can just merge Into one).

Threads will be merged here, If Mods feel like .

Peace out.

[The4thHorseman]

You picked cumulative stats, how shocking! I’m talking per game and how high a level a player performs throughout a season.

Jordan is first in history in all of those. He simply played at a higher level Funny how lebron has to use longevity and cumulative to lead in any of it. Then there are the obscure stats lebron fans pick to try and dance around the fact. We can dissect this if you’d enjoy that!

No, he's not.

Jordan's best season in PER is 6th all time. The last 4 Jokic seasons and 08-09 LeBron are better
Exact same for BPM
Jordan's best single season win share is 9th all time

Playoffs single season:
Jordan's best VORP season Is 7th all time. 3 of the top 4 are LeBron. The other 3 ahead of Jordan are Duncan, Bird, Jokic.
Jordan's best BPM is 2nd all time, behind LeBron.
Jordan's best win share was 9th all time, LeBron had 4 seasons better than that
Win Share/48: Jordan's best was 4th all time, with .3325, #1 is LeBron .3994
PER: Jordan's best was 8th all time, behind two separate seasons by LeBron.

Only 1 player has led all players on both teams in points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals in any series in NBA playoff history. LeBron. Who did that in the 2016 NBA Finals to beat a 73 win team. That series, beating that team, is when he became the GOAT.

https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/lebron-james-becomes-first-player-on-record-to-lead-series-in-points-rebounds-assists-steals-and-blocks

Will he always be the GOAT? I sure hope not. How bad is it for the sport of players don't keep getting better?.

Jordan was the GOAT before he won 6 championships, even though several players had more championships than him at the time and one important one has many more than Jordan. Jordan is no longer the GOAT after that 2016 finals.

Top PER

Jordan 31.71
James 31.67
Jordan 31.63
James 31.59
Jordan 31.18
Jordan 31.14
James 31.10


Top 5 seasons BPM
Jordan James
13.0 13.2
12.0 11.8
11.9 11.7
11.2 10.9
11.2 10.9

Top 5 seasons win shares
Jordan James
21.2 20.3
20.4 19.3
20.3 18.5
19.8 15.6
19.0 14.5

Top 5 seasons DWS
Jordan James
6.2 6.5
6.1 5.7
5.6 5.3
5.4 5.2
5.4 4.7


Top 5 seasons VORP
Jordan James
12.5 11.8
11.4 10.3
10.8 9.9
10.6 9.8
10.4 9.4


Jordan regular season winning pct 65.9
James regular season winning pct 64.5

Jordan playoff winning pct 66.5
James playoff winning pct 63.8

Jordan against 60 win teams in the playoffs 7-2
James against 60 win teams in the playoffs 3-5

Jordan is the greatest player i have ever seen and he clears James in accolades and advanced stats

The thing about MJ's stats above is you have to make sure that they're all from 1993 or earlier. You can't use stats after 1993 and compare them to LeBron’s considering MJ left the league and took time off in his prime. All of LeBron’s stats have been achieved in consecutive years with no time off. That goes for any player who gets compared to MJ's stats and/or accolades.

[RRR3]

just say "AFTER russell, kareem, bird, magic, and mj", and get on with the obsession

in fact there should be a top10 for before/after 2000
otherwise a top10 makes almost no sense

Bird and Magic

[ScrantonBulls]

Watch on YouTube

KG and Pierce dub LeBron the GOAT. Not only that, they dub him the greatest scorer ever. Hard to argue with that given his career ppg average and the scoring record. KG is one of the few great players that played against both players for multiple seasons during their primes.

[RRR3]

It's going to remain a debate between LBJ and MJ, but hopefully Wemby surpasses both and ends it because that would be pretty fun and also I want to see how MJ fans would react to someone CLEARLY superior to him (assuming Wemby can get there).

[michaelm]

No, he's not.

Jordan's best season in PER is 6th all time. The last 4 Jokic seasons and 08-09 LeBron are better
Exact same for BPM
Jordan's best single season win share is 9th all time

Playoffs single season:
Jordan's best VORP season Is 7th all time. 3 of the top 4 are LeBron. The other 3 ahead of Jordan are Duncan, Bird, Jokic.
Jordan's best BPM is 2nd all time, behind LeBron.
Jordan's best win share was 9th all time, LeBron had 4 seasons better than that
Win Share/48: Jordan's best was 4th all time, with .3325, #1 is LeBron .3994
PER: Jordan's best was 8th all time, behind two separate seasons by LeBron.

Only 1 player has led all players on both teams in points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals in any series in NBA playoff history. LeBron. Who did that in the 2016 NBA Finals to beat a 73 win team. That series, beating that team, is when he became the GOAT.

https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/lebron-james-becomes-first-player-on-record-to-lead-series-in-points-rebounds-assists-steals-and-blocks

Will he always be the GOAT? I sure hope not. How bad is it for the sport of players don't keep getting better?.

Jordan was the GOAT before he won 6 championships, even though several players had more championships than him at the time and one important one has many more than Jordan. Jordan is no longer the GOAT after that 2016 finals.

Top PER

Jordan 31.71
James 31.67
Jordan 31.63
James 31.59
Jordan 31.18
Jordan 31.14
James 31.10


Top 5 seasons BPM
Jordan James
13.0 13.2
12.0 11.8
11.9 11.7
11.2 10.9
11.2 10.9

Top 5 seasons win shares
Jordan James
21.2 20.3
20.4 19.3
20.3 18.5
19.8 15.6
19.0 14.5

Top 5 seasons DWS
Jordan James
6.2 6.5
6.1 5.7
5.6 5.3
5.4 5.2
5.4 4.7


Top 5 seasons VORP
Jordan James
12.5 11.8
11.4 10.3
10.8 9.9
10.6 9.8
10.4 9.4


Jordan regular season winning pct 65.9
James regular season winning pct 64.5

Jordan playoff winning pct 66.5
James playoff winning pct 63.8

Jordan against 60 win teams in the playoffs 7-2
James against 60 win teams in the playoffs 3-5

Jordan is the greatest player i have ever seen and he clears James in accolades and advanced stats

The thing about MJ's stats above is you have to make sure that they're all from 1993 or earlier. You can't use stats after 1993 and compare them to LeBron’s considering MJ left the league and took time off in his prime. All of LeBron’s stats have been achieved in consecutive years with no time off. That goes for any player who gets compared to MJ's stats and/or accolades.

And you demonstrate your need to be selective to make your argument, taking it to rather an extreme imo to dismiss a guy leading his team to consecutive titles at the ages of 33, 34 and 35, with one of those seasons not very arguably the best ever with 72 regular season wins capped by a title. I somehow rather doubt Jordan had his father shot to help his GOAT case, just as LeBron didn’t cause the Covid pandemic to help him (at age 35) and the notoriously injury prone AD arrive at the play-offs healthy.

The possibility also exists Jordan might have won 8 titles rather than 6, although as I recall he did say himself he regained motivation for the second threepeat during his break from playing.

[Rust_Cohle]

Watch on YouTube

KG and Pierce dub LeBron the GOAT. Not only that, they dub him the greatest scorer ever. Hard to argue with that given his career ppg average and the scoring record. KG is one of the few great players that played against both players for multiple seasons during their primes.

Pierce was a LeBron hater too for a while. Good find

[Rust_Cohle]

It's going to remain a debate between LBJ and MJ, but hopefully Wemby surpasses both and ends it because that would be pretty fun and also I want to see how MJ fans would react to someone CLEARLY superior to him (assuming Wemby can get there).

Wemby pulling a Djokovic on the MJ/LeBron debate would be hilarious

[bledredwine]

It's going to remain a debate between LBJ and MJ, but hopefully Wemby surpasses both and ends it because that would be pretty fun and also I want to see how MJ fans would react to someone CLEARLY superior to him (assuming Wemby can get there).

It'd probably be the same way you guys react to Jordan being clearly superior to Lebron.

Wemby has a long way to go and has to improve a lot. But I'm rooting for him.
He's actually likeable and competitive.

Watch on YouTube

[michaelm]

It's going to remain a debate between LBJ and MJ, but hopefully Wemby surpasses both and ends it because that would be pretty fun and also I want to see how MJ fans would react to someone CLEARLY superior to him (assuming Wemby can get there).

It'd probably be the same way you guys react to Jordan being clearly superior to Lebron.

Wemby has a long way to go and has to improve a lot. But I'm rooting for him.
He's actually likeable and competitive.

Watch on YouTube

I would enjoy seeing a new GOAT, insofar as I give credence to the whole GOAT thing which I don’t overly, myself. If it is Wemby so much the better, he seems like a great kid, but he has a ways to go, and with his physique will imo have trouble matching the durability of the likes of LeBron and Jordan, although Kareem managed to be a contributor at an advanced age.

[fantomex]

Impressive as MJ has been out of the league for quite some time and still widely considered the GOAT. I'm giving it to Jordan. Won more in a shorter amount of time. To ME that's more impressive than longevity. Lebron top 4 for me.

[bledredwine]

Watch on YouTube

KG and Pierce dub LeBron the GOAT. Not only that, they dub him the greatest scorer ever. Hard to argue with that given his career ppg average and the scoring record. KG is one of the few great players that played against both players for multiple seasons during their primes.

Pierce was a LeBron hater too for a while. Good find

He states longevity and that’s it.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

There are many more of these from players who faced both but I’m on an iphone.

[bledredwine]

Watch on YouTube

KG and Pierce dub LeBron the GOAT. Not only that, they dub him the greatest scorer ever. Hard to argue with that given his career ppg average and the scoring record. KG is one of the few great players that played against both players for multiple seasons during their primes.

Pierce was a LeBron hater too for a while. Good find

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

There are plenty more and if I dig, I’m sure I can find new ones but I’m on an iphone. And I’m talking about players who faced both lebron and Jordan. KG just used longevity as his reason like you guys, but whenever he talked about the level Jordan played at, it was Jordan no question. Same with Pierce. This is for debate sake.

[bledredwine]

By the way,

let’s clear up some things about help.

Jordan played with an all star 8 times. One time, Scottie was sick and he didn’t play alongside, and one time he only played 17 games with rust. So every time he played with a healthy allstar, he won the championship. Think about that.

The other six, he won the championship every single time. You sure as hell can’t say that about Lebron and he’s even lost when he should have won.
People were calling him GOAT after his first championship. Thats how dominant he was. Lebron’s been chasing a ghost even at age forty because he’s not transcendent like the GOAT.

Lebron sure as heck can’t take over a game like MJ, that much we’ve seen.

[michaelm]

Watch on YouTube

KG and Pierce dub LeBron the GOAT. Not only that, they dub him the greatest scorer ever. Hard to argue with that given his career ppg average and the scoring record. KG is one of the few great players that played against both players for multiple seasons during their primes.

Pierce was a LeBron hater too for a while. Good find

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

There are plenty more and if I dig, I’m sure I can find new ones but I’m on an iphone. And I’m talking about players who faced both lebron and Jordan. KG just used longevity as his reason like you guys, but whenever he talked about the level Jordan played at, it was Jordan no question. Same with Pierce. This is for debate sake.

What would Ray know ?. He wouldn’t have watched all the footage of Jordan I am told current players do 25 years on so they can make an unbiased assessment in regard to the LeBron vs Jordan question.

[Kobe187]

1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Kobe
4. Wilt
5. Magic

6. Russell
7. Duncan
8. James
9. Bird
10. Shaq

11. S. Curry
12. O. Robertson
13. H. Olajuwon
14. N. Jokic
15. M. Malone
16. K. Malone
17. C. Barkley
18. K. Garnett
19. K. Durant
20. J. West


If you know, you know, and for the young bucks that don’t know, y’all better ask somebody.

[bledredwine]

Pierce was a LeBron hater too for a while. Good find

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

There are plenty more and if I dig, I’m sure I can find new ones but I’m on an iphone. And I’m talking about players who faced both lebron and Jordan. KG just used longevity as his reason like you guys, but whenever he talked about the level Jordan played at, it was Jordan no question. Same with Pierce. This is for debate sake.

What would Ray know ?. He wouldn’t have watched all the footage of Jordan I am told current players do 25 years on so they can make an unbiased assessment in regard to the LeBron vs Jordan question.

Ray played against Jordan and Lebron. He says Jordan “no question” and emphasizes that he was much more skilled

[michaelm]

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

There are plenty more and if I dig, I’m sure I can find new ones but I’m on an iphone. And I’m talking about players who faced both lebron and Jordan. KG just used longevity as his reason like you guys, but whenever he talked about the level Jordan played at, it was Jordan no question. Same with Pierce. This is for debate sake.

What would Ray know ?. He wouldn’t have watched all the footage of Jordan I am told current players do 25 years on so they can make an unbiased assessment in regard to the LeBron vs Jordan question.

Ray played against Jordan and Lebron. He says Jordan “no question” and emphasizes that he was much more skilled

Sorry, I was intending to be sarcastic in view of a previous post about how current players would be in a position to judge Jordan. Played against Jordan, Celtics big 3 and contributed to a Heatles championship.