The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[hugolizard]

Murray is as streaky of a player as you can find in the NBA. He can score 50 one game and then shoot 30% the next couple of games. Fact is overall as a player he’s never been an all star and tbh never been close. He was not once on anyone’s all star snubbed list. Now how many great players have won without an all star Batman?

Because he's trash in the regular season. It's the post season when he suddenly decided to turn into Allen Iverson or Steph Curry. If you can stop Murray, or he stops himself, then the Nuggets become a breeze match up. He's the X factor. Always has been.

Murray does turn in up a notch but he’s still wildly inconsistent. The year when they won he was good, but 26/5/7 isn’t exactly AI or Curry level. And last year he sucked when he scored 20 ppg while shooting 40% from the field.

[Alatan]

The only good player on the Nuggets beside Jokic is Braun. The rest of the bunch are overrated, overpaid, injury prone chuckers that are trafic cones on defense.
Ten games against bottom feeders doesnt change that. On any other team Murray would be a 6th man, MPJ would be a spot up shooter of the bench, AG would be a journeyman roleplayer and WB would be in China.

I'd love to see the catastrophe, Nuggets would be without Jokic.

If you consider his teammates traffic cones on defense, then how would you describe Jokic himself on defense? Because to me he looks like the biggest 7’1 traffic cone on the entire team.

Jokic is an athletically limited defender in the sense that he cant protect the rim and is cooked in space like almost every big is, but he is great in other aspects of defense, such as rebounding, post defense, deflections, disrupting passing lanes, defensive awareness and coordination, etc. So if you surround him with good defenders he becomes a very good defender. How ever you rank him, be it neutral, above average or below average, he is a much better defender than either Murray or MPJ and probably better that the overrated defensive stopper AG.

The season where they had KCP to help him defend the PnR with Braun and Brown helping on the wing Denver had a very good playoff defense and they won a championship. If Denver FO wasnt a godforsaken center for the mentally challenged, they could have surrounded Jokic with a few defensive pieces and ONE CONSISTENT shot creator and they would have been a dynasty.

But why would they do that when they can max out two decrepit chukers and trade everything they got for a bunch of failed project players nobody else wanted anyway.

[hugolizard]

The thing I hate the most about these sorts of threads is the "he's never played with an All-Star!" Does being an all-star really matter?

The whole selection process is imperfect and full of biases, and players can not be all-stars and still be really good when it counts. They can also not be standouts but still fit together very well as a team.

Being an all-star doesn't matter. At all.

It kinda does matter cause being an all star validates your value as a player. He’s won a championship as well so he’s not some unknown name. In reality see Jamal as this instant player that benefits from the gravity of Jokic.

[Big J]

The only good player on the Nuggets beside Jokic is Braun. The rest of the bunch are overrated, overpaid, injury prone chuckers that are trafic cones on defense.
Ten games against bottom feeders doesnt change that. On any other team Murray would be a 6th man, MPJ would be a spot up shooter of the bench, AG would be a journeyman roleplayer and WB would be in China.

I'd love to see the catastrophe, Nuggets would be without Jokic.

If you consider his teammates traffic cones on defense, then how would you describe Jokic himself on defense? Because to me he looks like the biggest 7’1 traffic cone on the entire team.

Jokic is an athletically limited defender in the sense that he cant protect the rim and is cooked in space like almost every big is, but he is great in other aspects of defense, such as rebounding, post defense, deflections, disrupting passing lanes, defensive awareness and coordination, etc. So if you surround him with good defenders he becomes a very good defender. The season where they had KCP to help him defend the PnR with Braun and Brown helping on the wing Denver had a very good playoff defense and they won a championship. If Denver FO wasnt a godforsaken center for the mentally challenged, they could have surrounded Jokic with a few defensive pieces and ONE CONSISTENT shot creator and they would have been a dynasty.

But why would they do that when they can max out two decrepit chukers and trade everything they got for a bunch of failed project players nobody else wanted anyway.

Anyone can be part of a good team defense if every one around them is a good defender. The problem with Jokic being a bad defender is that it is much easier to build a good team defense around a center who can defend than everywhere else.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

As to the point of this thread, I give the Kroenke's a lot of credit for not succumbing to Malone's bull. And also, I give credit to Malone for actually playing the young guys once he saw it wasn't going to happen to trade them all for more seasoned vets. The Nuggets young players have talent. They aren't total scrubs. The coaching was letting them down because Malone was too busy being a Jokic merchant. However, as we've been finding out over the last two months, the front office (led by Booth) has actually made several good draft picks and these guys are long, athletic and can play.

Christian Braun is flat out better than KCP (at this stage in his career) and Bruce Brown. Peyton Watson is a better defender than both. Strawther, who I didn't even like coming out of Gonzaga, is absolutely a flame thrower from 3. Even Jalen Pickett, has done a 180 since his disastrous rookie year. Westbrook coming in, whether we want to also throw some credit to him as well, was a net positive. And it probably shows up more in the locker room and practice. The players on the team love him.

Braun was a big suprise and has clearly taken a huge leap. None of the other young guys are likely playable in the playoffs though

I don't see why Watson shouldn't be playable.
The only issue is that what this lost month will do to his season.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Some of these too good not to post on here. The best part about this site is watching people just expose themselves.

"With Nikola Jokić off the floor, the Denver Nuggets' offensive rating is 86.3 - the worst in NBA history.
With Jokić on the floor, their offensive rating is 125.8 - the best in NBA history."

BS stat this early in the season. This guy gets way too much credit from all the casual Stans. He's a great player but he's been elevated due to injury luck - the guys better than him like Luka, Giannis and Embiid deal with injuries to themselves and their teams while jokic gets to keep running up the stats thanks to iron man genetics.

I mean this same argument was made for LeBron with a lot of backlash. It was always “well yeah, his team is catered to play around him, of course they’re bad when he’s off the court”. You could make the same argument that they put certain players around him to cater to his strengths.

I just don’t think Jokic is some kind of victim like a lot of his fans do. You’d think his best teammate in his Nuggets stint was Mo Williams or something

That’s a joke on that last part, but the point can be made both ways I guess. This is my biased take

no because, unlike LeBron, Jokic doesn't force players to adjust to him turning into play finishers.
Whatever is your strength, he's the one adjusting and helping you take advantage of it. It's not like this summer you had an army of experts explaing how good was the fit between Russ and Jokic.

The issue is that he's making those guys look better, but still there's a huge lack of creation when he's off the floor, even if he showed he can easily cohexist with and enhance other creators.

[Alatan]

If you consider his teammates traffic cones on defense, then how would you describe Jokic himself on defense? Because to me he looks like the biggest 7’1 traffic cone on the entire team.

Jokic is an athletically limited defender in the sense that he cant protect the rim and is cooked in space like almost every big is, but he is great in other aspects of defense, such as rebounding, post defense, deflections, disrupting passing lanes, defensive awareness and coordination, etc. So if you surround him with good defenders he becomes a very good defender. The season where they had KCP to help him defend the PnR with Braun and Brown helping on the wing Denver had a very good playoff defense and they won a championship. If Denver FO wasnt a godforsaken center for the mentally challenged, they could have surrounded Jokic with a few defensive pieces and ONE CONSISTENT shot creator and they would have been a dynasty.

But why would they do that when they can max out two decrepit chukers and trade everything they got for a bunch of failed project players nobody else wanted anyway.

Anyone can be part of a good team defense if every one around them is a good defender. The problem with Jokic being a bad defender is that it is much easier to build a good team defense around a center who can defend than everywhere else.

Yeah, you can build a good defense around anyone, but you cant build a good offense around anyone. And Jokic alone guarantees you a good offense while being able to be a neutral to above average defender in a vacuum. Failing to build a good defense around Jokic is Denvers FOs fault.
You and posters like you still pretend that Jokic is some horrible, unplayable defender that teams cant possibly build around to compete while in reality the man won a championship with a bunch of clowns next to him.

[Special_Puppy]

If you consider his teammates traffic cones on defense, then how would you describe Jokic himself on defense? Because to me he looks like the biggest 7’1 traffic cone on the entire team.

Jokic is an athletically limited defender in the sense that he cant protect the rim and is cooked in space like almost every big is, but he is great in other aspects of defense, such as rebounding, post defense, deflections, disrupting passing lanes, defensive awareness and coordination, etc. So if you surround him with good defenders he becomes a very good defender. The season where they had KCP to help him defend the PnR with Braun and Brown helping on the wing Denver had a very good playoff defense and they won a championship. If Denver FO wasnt a godforsaken center for the mentally challenged, they could have surrounded Jokic with a few defensive pieces and ONE CONSISTENT shot creator and they would have been a dynasty.

But why would they do that when they can max out two decrepit chukers and trade everything they got for a bunch of failed project players nobody else wanted anyway.

Anyone can be part of a good team defense if every one around them is a good defender. The problem with Jokic being a bad defender is that it is much easier to build a good team defense around a center who can defend than everywhere else.

The evidence that Jokic is a “bad” defender is pretty weak.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I don't know about "enough," but they're close. Still could use a better back-up than Jordan and Nnaji to fill those minutes Jokic is on the bench for.

it's called aaron gordon

[Ryoga Hibiki]

As to the point of this thread, I give the Kroenke's a lot of credit for not succumbing to Malone's bull. And also, I give credit to Malone for actually playing the young guys once he saw it wasn't going to happen to trade them all for more seasoned vets. The Nuggets young players have talent. They aren't total scrubs. The coaching was letting them down because Malone was too busy being a Jokic merchant. However, as we've been finding out over the last two months, the front office (led by Booth) has actually made several good draft picks and these guys are long, athletic and can play.

Christian Braun is flat out better than KCP (at this stage in his career) and Bruce Brown. Peyton Watson is a better defender than both. Strawther, who I didn't even like coming out of Gonzaga, is absolutely a flame thrower from 3. Even Jalen Pickett, has done a 180 since his disastrous rookie year. Westbrook coming in, whether we want to also throw some credit to him as well, was a net positive. And it probably shows up more in the locker room and practice. The players on the team love him.

Fully agreed. I do feel that management could be more invested in the "now" rather than trying the 2 timeline thing like GS but that being said, Booth has shown he has a good track record of drafting young talent.

I was harsh on Malone earlier during the season but he seems to be figuring things out so I have to give him credit.

unlike the Warriors, they are invested in one timeline.
the jokic timeline.
all those choices are meant to keep Denver competitive through his mid 30s, not just one year.

[maxpower8888]

The key to beating Jokic is the same as the key to beating all great players: make their teammates beat you. If Jokic had a certified All-Star 2nd option (like Wade or Irving), they would be at the very least in the WCF every single year.

[jokeboy86]

This board is completely delusional about Jokic. The guy won an MVP as a freakin' 6 seed. He's flamed out of the playoffs every year except for one run when Murray played like an all-star. He's been to the WCF less than Luka has and he has MPJ and Murray as teammates. He's a great offensive engine that is a black hole on defense. He's Harden, but better on offense. Probably even worse on defense since he plays the most important defensive position in the game. He's can't compete without Murray putting up all-star numbers, and you see the result whenever Murray is injured or under-performing. The team tanks, but Jokic still gets his numbers. He doesn't have a killer mentality, he can't carry a team unless he's surrounded by talent, and he's one of the most boring players to ever watch. Can't wait until this guy retires so the real stars can finally get their due. He isn't winning another ring ever again. He's been lucky that the guy that's been competing against him in Embiid was one of the biggest superstar busts in history. Jokic looks good next to him.

This is an epic post and I’m surprised nobody picked up on it. This confirms that celebrities do post on RealGM. Who knew that Kanye West would be chiming in on a post about Jokic. Realgm is big time now baby. Pin this post by Kanye mods.

[Big J]

Jokic is an athletically limited defender in the sense that he cant protect the rim and is cooked in space like almost every big is, but he is great in other aspects of defense, such as rebounding, post defense, deflections, disrupting passing lanes, defensive awareness and coordination, etc. So if you surround him with good defenders he becomes a very good defender. The season where they had KCP to help him defend the PnR with Braun and Brown helping on the wing Denver had a very good playoff defense and they won a championship. If Denver FO wasnt a godforsaken center for the mentally challenged, they could have surrounded Jokic with a few defensive pieces and ONE CONSISTENT shot creator and they would have been a dynasty.

But why would they do that when they can max out two decrepit chukers and trade everything they got for a bunch of failed project players nobody else wanted anyway.

Anyone can be part of a good team defense if every one around them is a good defender. The problem with Jokic being a bad defender is that it is much easier to build a good team defense around a center who can defend than everywhere else.

Yeah, you can build a good defense around anyone, but you cant build a good offense around anyone. And Jokic alone guarantees you a good offense while being able to be a neutral to above average defender in a vacuum. Failing to build a good defense around Jokic is Denvers FOs fault.
You and posters like you still pretend that Jokic is some horrible, unplayable defender that teams cant possibly build around to compete while in reality the man won a championship with a bunch of clowns next to him.

Jokic is not a neutral or above average defender in any sense. He’s a poor defender who is easily exposed by running a simple high ball pick and roll. If he’s forced to switch out on the perimeter he’s cooked every time. Calling his teammates traffic cones while pretending he is any better than them on that end is a complete double standard.

[soxfan2003]

Jokic is one of the best players in NBA history. Underrated a ton by many folks on this board. He will probably deserve another MVP but many not win it for understandable reasons.

But at the same time, I maintain that Jokic is like Lebron/Harden/Curry/Giannis/Doncic whose greatness is exaggerated a bit by the evolution of the 3 point shot. Without that shot available, his passing on offense in terms of effectiveness becomes closer to Bill Walton than the big impact it often has now.

On the other hand, a Tim Duncan or even Shaq are less reliant upon the 3 point shot. Michael Jordan and Kobe less reliant upon that shot. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird less reliant upon the 3 even though Bird and Magic developed that shot during their careers. I am no Jordan/Kobe/Duncan/Shaq fans but just telling the truth. Same goes for KG. I kind of dislike Kevin Durant to small extent but he had the sort of game not relying too much on passing based upon the 3 point shot so his impact isn't really reduced much without that shot available.

Some will say why the hell is Giannis on my list here given the guy is a bad 3 point shooter for the most part. If Giannis played in the 90's with packed paints and more tough bigs on the court, his impact without a doubt is reduced.

Some will say well we do have the 3 point shot...duh. But teams of the past didn't exploit it as much for several different reasons and I think it is clear by now that shot and the overuse of it has helped ruin the NBA.

NBA should have the guts to make the 3 point shot only worth 2.5 points to return balance to the game. And if they did that, Jokic not as valuable and centers of the past like Hakeem/Patrick Ewing/David Robinson that didn't have world class passing skills to 3 point shooters become more valuable in this era and Jokic less valuable. Yes, some "less skilled" players are back in the NBA but the game is still more interesting to watch and closer to how the founders must have envisioned.

In NBA history, Doncic may be the player that benefits the most from the 3 ball. I don't think his drive game works with David Robinson and Tim Duncan clogging the paint. And the rest of his game isn't strong enough to make up for it. James Harden for all of his faults is at least a great free throw shooter.

You can only play with the current rules but the current rules and how the game has evolved really prop up some players and Jokic is the big probably propped up the most.

I'm not even saying he wouldn't be better than a Moses Malone without the 3 point shot.... He would still be better than Moses Malone but he wouldn't be THIS dominant. He may face series trying to score over 2 great defensive bigs with his only option to pass to the perimeter for a shot not worth that much.

And with the current rules, Jokic is the true MVP of the league. The number 2 in Denver is not that good. I've always liked Gordon as a role player but he is a role player and not a true star.

Jokic is a good sometimes underrated defender but he isn't a great one by big man standards.

[DimesandKnicks]

:(

Murray is as streaky of a player as you can find in the NBA. He can score 50 one game and then shoot 30% the next couple of games. Fact is overall as a player he’s never been an all star and tbh never been close. He was not once on anyone’s all star snubbed list. Now how many great players have won without an all star Batman?

Because he's trash in the regular season. It's the post season when he suddenly decided to turn into Allen Iverson or Steph Curry. If you can stop Murray, or he stops himself, then the Nuggets become a breeze match up. He's the X factor. Always has been.

Murray does turn in up a notch but he’s still wildly inconsistent. The year when they won he was good, but 26/5/7 isn’t exactly AI or Curry level. And last year he sucked when he scored 20 ppg while shooting 40% from the field.

26/5/7 is actually kind of Curry/Iverson level though. Idk if you're being sarcastic

[Special_Puppy]

Anyone can be part of a good team defense if every one around them is a good defender. The problem with Jokic being a bad defender is that it is much easier to build a good team defense around a center who can defend than everywhere else.

Yeah, you can build a good defense around anyone, but you cant build a good offense around anyone. And Jokic alone guarantees you a good offense while being able to be a neutral to above average defender in a vacuum. Failing to build a good defense around Jokic is Denvers FOs fault.
You and posters like you still pretend that Jokic is some horrible, unplayable defender that teams cant possibly build around to compete while in reality the man won a championship with a bunch of clowns next to him.

Jokic is not a neutral or above average defender in any sense. He’s a poor defender who is easily exposed by running a simple high ball pick and roll. If he’s forced to switch out on the perimeter he’s cooked every time. Calling his teammates traffic cones while pretending he is any better than them on that end is a complete double standard.

Ah the old "just run the Pickle Role against Jokic" line. Opponents are scoring 0.78 Points on every pick and roll they run against Jokic this year which is pretty low. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler?TypeGrouping=defensive&dir=D&sort=POSS

[DimesandKnicks]

Jokic is an athletically limited defender in the sense that he cant protect the rim and is cooked in space like almost every big is, but he is great in other aspects of defense, such as rebounding, post defense, deflections, disrupting passing lanes, defensive awareness and coordination, etc. So if you surround him with good defenders he becomes a very good defender. The season where they had KCP to help him defend the PnR with Braun and Brown helping on the wing Denver had a very good playoff defense and they won a championship. If Denver FO wasnt a godforsaken center for the mentally challenged, they could have surrounded Jokic with a few defensive pieces and ONE CONSISTENT shot creator and they would have been a dynasty.

But why would they do that when they can max out two decrepit chukers and trade everything they got for a bunch of failed project players nobody else wanted anyway.

Anyone can be part of a good team defense if every one around them is a good defender. The problem with Jokic being a bad defender is that it is much easier to build a good team defense around a center who can defend than everywhere else.

The evidence that Jokic is a “bad” defender is pretty weak.

All you have to do is watch the games. It's pretty clear to anyone being objective

[Raps in 4]

Lebron has like almost a decade and a half of teams with more than Jokic has ever had lmao.

Well as fair as this is, LeBron has played for 12 more years than Jokic and Jokic has more help than LeBron did in his first Cleveland stint.

This isn’t that good of a comparison until Jokic’s career is over and we know who he had as a teammate for the entirety of it

By age 30 (Jokic's age right now), LeBron had already played with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, and Love. That is 39x All-Star appearances and 14x All-NBA selections between these four. Jokic's teammates up to this point have been named to 0x All-Star teams and 0x All-NBA teams.

There is absolutely no comparison between the help LeBron had in his career (early or late) versus what Jokic has.

[1993Playoffs]

He’s a poor defender for sure though

[Big J]

Yeah, you can build a good defense around anyone, but you cant build a good offense around anyone. And Jokic alone guarantees you a good offense while being able to be a neutral to above average defender in a vacuum. Failing to build a good defense around Jokic is Denvers FOs fault.
You and posters like you still pretend that Jokic is some horrible, unplayable defender that teams cant possibly build around to compete while in reality the man won a championship with a bunch of clowns next to him.

Jokic is not a neutral or above average defender in any sense. He’s a poor defender who is easily exposed by running a simple high ball pick and roll. If he’s forced to switch out on the perimeter he’s cooked every time. Calling his teammates traffic cones while pretending he is any better than them on that end is a complete double standard.

Ah the old "just run the Pickle Role against Jokic" line. Opponents are scoring 0.78 Points on every pick and roll they run against Jokic this year which is pretty low. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler?TypeGrouping=defensive&dir=D&sort=POSS

That’s just a blanket stat with zero context. Watch when teams actually target him in the pick & roll. GS did it in 2022, and Edward’s did it in the playoffs last year.