The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[AleksandarN]

Team USA also almost lost to Sudan I ignored this the first time because it’s just a dumb argument.

it would only be a dumb argument in a reasonable conversation along the lines of "jokic is an average defender and one game doesn't change that". in this conversation where you insist that jokic is terrible and you just need to attack him, once you are proven wrong with an example to the opposite, your whole argument collapses. and boy have you been proven wrong with that team usa game. there's really no excuses for a team as loaded as that team to ever not attack a weak defender. they have all the tools in the world to achieve that goal. except they couldn't because jokic isn't a bad defender.

wtf are you babbling about? One game proves Jokic isn’t a bad defender because his team didn’t get blown out?

Wasn’t just the one game against USA in the Olympics. 2023 playoffs the same thing.

[michaelm]

The main issue is there are only so many rim protectors who could play alongside Jokic and none of them are available. Obviously playing with guys like Murray and MPJ doesn't help, but even if they were good defenders, rim protection is still going to be an issue.

It's not that bad. You can get forwards who can help contest at the rim. All those 6'9 types which Masai seems to love, for example. Or a Kirilenko type.

Honestly, they lost in G7 to the Wolves 98-90. Defense wasn't their issue. They kept the Wolves almost 8 points below league average. Ant was awful. Conley was terrible. NAW was dreadful. The problem was that they only scored 90 points, and crapped themselves in the third. Braun, KCP and MPJ combined to shoot 2/11 from 3. Murray was 4/12, despite scoring well otherwise. They got 5 points from the bench. Not-Jokic was w/13 in the 3rd.

What they needed was more scoring help around Joker. Their D wasn't the largest problem, and wouldn't have been had they faced the Celtics, either. There are different profiles to a title contender/NBA Finalist, after all.

In general there's been a hyperfixation on Jokic's lack of rim protection that I think has lost the plot a bit.

Yes, Jokic is not a strong rim protector. He gives you next to no verticality outside his height, and he doesn't quite have the footspeed and length of someone like Marc Gasol (example of a rim protector without jumping vertical defense). It has been reinforced a lot over the past 20 years of basketball that rim protection is the spine of elite defense, and that rim protection is the most important value add a center can give you.

People focus too myopically on this weakness though, ignoring the forest (Denver has not struggled to defend well enough in the playoffs) for the trees. Jokic does a ton of things well on defense (crazy good hands, sneaky decent feet, little stunting tricks to bait people into pull ups, stouter than his reputation in man-to-man matchups, high motor, extremely proactive). The Nuggets are bad a rim protection. They aren't compensating for Jokic's weakness by adding rim protection somewhere else on the floor. MPJ is probably their best rim protector and I'm not sure he's average even as a secondary rim protector. The Nuggets have basically punted on rim defense and focused on forcing teams into crappy shot selection. They'll never produce elite defense this way, but they've proven over and over that they can play good enough defense to support their offense.

Going off what tsherk said, D hasn't been their problem. When the offense is good, they win.

This is my view also which I didn’t express as well as you. If a team containing Jokic is good enough defensively to win a title then whether he is a good rim protector doesn’t matter all that much. Sure he was successfully targeted on defense with a depleted team by GSW in 2022, but not in 2023 when playing with a healthy team. I myself and many others fully expected that Denver would be vulnerable to the same tactic in 2023, but they weren’t, which changed my mind on him. Someone just raised the point which, not knowing the inner workings of the Denver organisation had attributed to incompetence, that they just couldn’t keep the 2023 team together which is not entirely surprising if they are not a wealthy franchise and the NBA has rules specifically aimed at producing parity/preventing dynasties which were further tightened after GSW won in 2022.

[michaelm]

Aaron McKie played 24 more NBA games in his career after leaving Philly, so he's an odd mention.

Eric Snow played the last few seasons of his career with Lebron, and the Cavs didn't have much need of him on-ball, so his production was lower. Ratliff was unhealthy most of his career, but routinely in DPOY conversations, had a couple shot-blocking titles without Iverson... and then his health fell apart even worse in Portland in his 30s and he scraped along until he retired. George Lynch was the same before, during and after Iverson: a weak-shooting defensive roleplayer

Not really a ton of Iverson elevating those guys. Philly's offense was routinely pretty bad. 97-06, Philly was a negative offense every season except 01 (+0.6) and 03 (+1.4). They won with defense, and the odd scoring explosion from AI. They dragged along bleh offenses and only won as their D improved. They were mostly a -4 defense under Larry Brown, and faded after 03.



Yeah, his role has been a big part of it. The massive uptick in passing support on his shots is a huge factor as well, of course, and that centers around Jokic's specific abilities. The extra 1-3 FGA/g Gordon was taking in Orlando weren't really the major problem, though, it was more that him initiating his own offense on-ball wasn't ideal. The massive spike he has in shots at the rim in Denver, on the other hand, and how much less he shoots beyond 10 feet...

You can't separate Jokic out from that. It's specifically the way he impacts others, allowing them to move around and receive the ball in their best places. That is explicitly the benefit of a high-end playmaker. If AG had gone from like 17+ FGA/g down to the 8-11 FGA/g he takes, that'd be one thing, but that wasn't the case. Jokic is having an OBVIOUS impact on Gordon's efficiency. It isn't really a contestable point. The specific degree to which that is the case is a conversation piece, for sure, but denying Jokic's impact would just be non-sensical.

Disagree if you want on AI, but are you of the opinion that only Jokic elevates roles players, and that "nobody does it like him" which is was responding to? Superstars elevate role players all the time, not just Nikola.

As for Gordon, yes, his looks are much easier as a 4th option on Denver. As a result he shoots a higher percentage.

Jokic elevates any kind of players, not just role players.
He's the one adjusting, he doesn't ask them to fit into a narrow box.
That's pretty unique, in my experience.

Yes, that’s it, but as a GSW fan I would add Steph Curry as being similarly team focused and playing in a way that was best for the team rather than for his individual stats when he was next to KD. He and Jokic are also the main guys who will take a half court shot on the buzzer because it can’t hurt their team and may help. I regard Jokic as the superior playmaker, but even the defensive attention ATG offensive players command is helpful for other players.

[Jaqua92]

This board is completely delusional about Jokic. The guy won an MVP as a freakin' 6 seed. He's flamed out of the playoffs every year except for one run when Murray played like an all-star. He's been to the WCF less than Luka has and he has MPJ and Murray as teammates. He's a great offensive engine that is a black hole on defense. He's Harden, but better on offense. Probably even worse on defense since he plays the most important defensive position in the game. He's can't compete without Murray putting up all-star numbers, and you see the result whenever Murray is injured or under-performing. The team tanks, but Jokic still gets his numbers. He doesn't have a killer mentality, he can't carry a team unless he's surrounded by talent, and he's one of the most boring players to ever watch. Can't wait until this guy retires so the real stars can finally get their due. He isn't winning another ring ever again. He's been lucky that the guy that's been competing against him in Embiid was one of the biggest superstar busts in history. Jokic looks good next to him.

This is just in such poor taste that it reads as nothing other than pathetic.

[Jaqua92]

This board is completely delusional about Jokic. The guy won an MVP as a freakin' 6 seed. He's flamed out of the playoffs every year except for one run when Murray played like an all-star. He's been to the WCF less than Luka has and he has MPJ and Murray as teammates. He's a great offensive engine that is a black hole on defense. He's Harden, but better on offense. Probably even worse on defense since he plays the most important defensive position in the game. He's can't compete without Murray putting up all-star numbers, and you see the result whenever Murray is injured or under-performing. The team tanks, but Jokic still gets his numbers. He doesn't have a killer mentality, he can't carry a team unless he's surrounded by talent, and he's one of the most boring players to ever watch. Can't wait until this guy retires so the real stars can finally get their due. He isn't winning another ring ever again.

That’s funny considering your boy Luka is literally Harden but worse on offense.

Luka is a legit hard-carry player. He's better than Harden on offense and defense. He proves it in the playoffs, where guys like Harden go to embarrass themselves. Top 3 playoff scorer in history. Give Luka the Nuggets and they'd have 2 rings, but he'd probably have less MVP's because he does his work when it matters.

"He does his work when it matters"

Jokic has averaged 30 points in how many playoffs now? He also has a FMVP.

Cut this trolling out.

[yellowknifer]

This board is completely delusional about Jokic. The guy won an MVP as a freakin' 6 seed. He's flamed out of the playoffs every year except for one run when Murray played like an all-star. He's been to the WCF less than Luka has and he has MPJ and Murray as teammates. He's a great offensive engine that is a black hole on defense. He's Harden, but better on offense. Probably even worse on defense since he plays the most important defensive position in the game. He's can't compete without Murray putting up all-star numbers, and you see the result whenever Murray is injured or under-performing. The team tanks, but Jokic still gets his numbers. He doesn't have a killer mentality, he can't carry a team unless he's surrounded by talent, and he's one of the most boring players to ever watch. Can't wait until this guy retires so the real stars can finally get their due. He isn't winning another ring ever again. He's been lucky that the guy that's been competing against him in Embiid was one of the biggest superstar busts in history. Jokic looks good next to him.

Never change RealGM. Never change.

[Exp0sed]

Team USA also almost lost to Sudan I ignored this the first time because it’s just a dumb argument.

it would only be a dumb argument in a reasonable conversation along the lines of "jokic is an average defender and one game doesn't change that". in this conversation where you insist that jokic is terrible and you just need to attack him, once you are proven wrong with an example to the opposite, your whole argument collapses. and boy have you been proven wrong with that team usa game. there's really no excuses for a team as loaded as that team to ever not attack a weak defender. they have all the tools in the world to achieve that goal. except they couldn't because jokic isn't a bad defender.

wtf are you babbling about? One game proves Jokic isn’t a bad defender because his team didn’t get blown out?

how about a playoff run where teams game plan for him and in theory (according to u) should be able to exploit his "terrible" defense and yet the Nuggets had the 3rd best playoff defense out of the 16 playoff teams in their title run, with Jokic playing alongside defensive juggenauts like MPJ and Murray in the starting lineup?

[yellowknifer]

it would only be a dumb argument in a reasonable conversation along the lines of "jokic is an average defender and one game doesn't change that". in this conversation where you insist that jokic is terrible and you just need to attack him, once you are proven wrong with an example to the opposite, your whole argument collapses. and boy have you been proven wrong with that team usa game. there's really no excuses for a team as loaded as that team to ever not attack a weak defender. they have all the tools in the world to achieve that goal. except they couldn't because jokic isn't a bad defender.

wtf are you babbling about? One game proves Jokic isn’t a bad defender because his team didn’t get blown out?

how about a playoff run where teams game plan for him and in theory (according to u) should be able to exploit his "terrible" defense and yet the Nuggets had the 3rd best playoff defense out of the 16 playoff teams in their title run, with Jokic playing alongside defensive juggenauts like MPJ and Murray in the starting lineup?

His defense is very underrated. He has gotten himself into good shape and hustles hard. His size and length bothers anyone he is close to and his hands are outstanding which is why he is one of the league leaders in steals. His defense is definitely not a negative. It’s not Anthony Davis, but he is an overall plus and better than most starting Cs. Yeah if he gets switched onto a small guard it can be a problem, but Denver does a pretty good job making sure it doesn’t happen. He is also very high IQ and knows where he is supposed to be.

Then factor in that he’s one of the greatest offensive players ever, easy top 5 and maybe wind up at number 1 by the end of his career… well, the guy is amazing. One of the best passers ever, easily the best guy ever with his size. Fantastic post game. Fantastic shooter. Fantastic size and fantastic decision making.

The Nuggets are a losing team without him on the court. They have one of the best point differentials with him on it.

I get if someone loves Luka, guy is an incredible talent. Just pure natural basketball ability and a build to go with. But he isn’t Jokic. He’s a little bit worse at almost everything. He could be better if he took his conditioning more seriously, IMO. Having Lebron to help guide him I think will help a lot. But to somehow suggest he’s a better player than Jokic is just asinine.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Disagree if you want on AI, but are you of the opinion that only Jokic elevates roles players, and that "nobody does it like him" which is was responding to? Superstars elevate role players all the time, not just Nikola.

As for Gordon, yes, his looks are much easier as a 4th option on Denver. As a result he shoots a higher percentage.

Jokic elevates any kind of players, not just role players.
He's the one adjusting, he doesn't ask them to fit into a narrow box.
That's pretty unique, in my experience.

Yes, that’s it, but as a GSW fan I would add Steph Curry as being similarly team focused and playing in a way that was best for the team rather than for his individual stats when he was next to KD. He and Jokic are also the main guys who will take a half court shot on the buzzer because it can’t hurt their team and may help. I regard Jokic as the superior playmaker, but even the defensive attention ATG offensive players command is helpful for other players.

the only thing about Curry is that you need a certain level of bbiq to fully take advantage of his gravity. The read and react game he asks you is not for everybody, see Oubre.
Otoh Jokic doesn't ask too much to his teammates. If you can make complex reads he'll use you accordingly, otherwise you can just space and cut when open. We're seeing a guy like Nnaji looking competent even on offense, now.

[michaelm]

Jokic elevates any kind of players, not just role players.
He's the one adjusting, he doesn't ask them to fit into a narrow box.
That's pretty unique, in my experience.

Yes, that’s it, but as a GSW fan I would add Steph Curry as being similarly team focused and playing in a way that was best for the team rather than for his individual stats when he was next to KD. He and Jokic are also the main guys who will take a half court shot on the buzzer because it can’t hurt their team and may help. I regard Jokic as the superior playmaker, but even the defensive attention ATG offensive players command is helpful for other players.

the only thing about Curry is that you need a certain level of bbiq to fully take advantage of his gravity. The read and react game he asks you is not for everybody, see Oubre.
Otoh Jokic doesn't ask too much to his teammates. If you can make complex reads he'll use you accordingly, otherwise you can just space and cut when open. We're seeing a guy like Nnaji looking competent even on offense, now.

I have some sympathy with the view that Oubre was too dumb to benefit from playing with Curry and hence that Jokic who controls the play more can float all boats which Curry may not be able to do. As somebody else said LeBron can get the most out of such players as well.

[DimesandKnicks]

wtf are you babbling about? One game proves Jokic isn’t a bad defender because his team didn’t get blown out?

how about a playoff run where teams game plan for him and in theory (according to u) should be able to exploit his "terrible" defense and yet the Nuggets had the 3rd best playoff defense out of the 16 playoff teams in their title run, with Jokic playing alongside defensive juggenauts like MPJ and Murray in the starting lineup?

His defense is very underrated. He has gotten himself into good shape and hustles hard. His size and length bothers anyone he is close to and his hands are outstanding which is why he is one of the league leaders in steals. His defense is definitely not a negative. It’s not Anthony Davis, but he is an overall plus and better than most starting Cs. Yeah if he gets switched onto a small guard it can be a problem, but Denver does a pretty good job making sure it doesn’t happen. He is also very high IQ and knows where he is supposed to be.

Then factor in that he’s one of the greatest offensive players ever, easy top 5 and maybe wind up at number 1 by the end of his career… well, the guy is amazing. One of the best passers ever, easily the best guy ever with his size. Fantastic post game. Fantastic shooter. Fantastic size and fantastic decision making.

The Nuggets are a losing team without him on the court. They have one of the best point differentials with him on it.

I get if someone loves Luka, guy is an incredible talent. Just pure natural basketball ability and a build to go with. But he isn’t Jokic. He’s a little bit worse at almost everything. He could be better if he took his conditioning more seriously, IMO. Having Lebron to help guide him I think will help a lot. But to somehow suggest he’s a better player than Jokic is just asinine.

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

Defense is a team game. If your coach has a good scheme and the players buy in, you don’t need great individual defenders to have a good defense and the Nuggest have a great defensive scheme that makes up for Jokicc’s flaws.

I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up.

Great hands? You play defender with your body not your hands.

If he were Lebron you all would be crucifying him but for whatever reason Jokic gets a pass for not being a good defender

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

excuse me, Jeff Green is an elite defender?
you know none of them sniffed an all nba defensive team?

[DimesandKnicks]

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

excuse me, Jeff Green is an elite defender?
you know none of them sniffed an all nba defensive team?

No, he’s a good defender and if he ain’t than Jokic sure isn’t.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

excuse me, Jeff Green is an elite defender?
you know none of them sniffed an all nba defensive team?

No, he’s a good defender and if he ain’t than Jokic sure isn’t.

you really didn't follow that 23 run, did you?
no, he was not a good defender at all and that was actually a topic that was widely discussed in Denver media at the time.
he looked the part, but he was more of a liability. definitely more than jokic

[Exp0sed]

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

excuse me, Jeff Green is an elite defender?
you know none of them sniffed an all nba defensive team?

No, he’s a good defender and if he ain’t than Jokic sure isn’t.

Jeff Green wasn't a good defender even in his prime and In the title run he was a 3rd stringer, good lockeroom vet who was like 36 years old and utterly washed. he was the worst player coming off the bench out of any if the serious playoff teams that season

he was important in that lockeroom etc but on the court? and on D to boot? lol

[AleksandarN]

how about a playoff run where teams game plan for him and in theory (according to u) should be able to exploit his "terrible" defense and yet the Nuggets had the 3rd best playoff defense out of the 16 playoff teams in their title run, with Jokic playing alongside defensive juggenauts like MPJ and Murray in the starting lineup?

His defense is very underrated. He has gotten himself into good shape and hustles hard. His size and length bothers anyone he is close to and his hands are outstanding which is why he is one of the league leaders in steals. His defense is definitely not a negative. It’s not Anthony Davis, but he is an overall plus and better than most starting Cs. Yeah if he gets switched onto a small guard it can be a problem, but Denver does a pretty good job making sure it doesn’t happen. He is also very high IQ and knows where he is supposed to be.

Then factor in that he’s one of the greatest offensive players ever, easy top 5 and maybe wind up at number 1 by the end of his career… well, the guy is amazing. One of the best passers ever, easily the best guy ever with his size. Fantastic post game. Fantastic shooter. Fantastic size and fantastic decision making.

The Nuggets are a losing team without him on the court. They have one of the best point differentials with him on it.

I get if someone loves Luka, guy is an incredible talent. Just pure natural basketball ability and a build to go with. But he isn’t Jokic. He’s a little bit worse at almost everything. He could be better if he took his conditioning more seriously, IMO. Having Lebron to help guide him I think will help a lot. But to somehow suggest he’s a better player than Jokic is just asinine.

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

Defense is a team game. If your coach has a good scheme and the players buy in, you don’t need great individual defenders to have a good defense and the Nuggest have a great defensive scheme that makes up for Jokicc’s flaws.

I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up.

Great hands? You play defender with your body not your hands.

If he were Lebron you all would be crucifying him but for whatever reason Jokic gets a pass for not being a good defender

Playing team defense takes skill and IQ. Jokic has the highest basketball iq in the game. He knows sets teams run. He coordinates his teammates on the defensive end. That is not a player that is “terrible” on defense. No one is calling him the best defender in the league. He is not elite. But in the same vein he is not “terrible” either

[DirtyDez]

I didn’t realize there was legitimate Jokic criticism. All the guy does is show up and post historic numbers while being a durable, drama free superstar. Who wouldn’t want this guy as their franchise player.

[DimesandKnicks]

His defense is very underrated. He has gotten himself into good shape and hustles hard. His size and length bothers anyone he is close to and his hands are outstanding which is why he is one of the league leaders in steals. His defense is definitely not a negative. It’s not Anthony Davis, but he is an overall plus and better than most starting Cs. Yeah if he gets switched onto a small guard it can be a problem, but Denver does a pretty good job making sure it doesn’t happen. He is also very high IQ and knows where he is supposed to be.

Then factor in that he’s one of the greatest offensive players ever, easy top 5 and maybe wind up at number 1 by the end of his career… well, the guy is amazing. One of the best passers ever, easily the best guy ever with his size. Fantastic post game. Fantastic shooter. Fantastic size and fantastic decision making.

The Nuggets are a losing team without him on the court. They have one of the best point differentials with him on it.

I get if someone loves Luka, guy is an incredible talent. Just pure natural basketball ability and a build to go with. But he isn’t Jokic. He’s a little bit worse at almost everything. He could be better if he took his conditioning more seriously, IMO. Having Lebron to help guide him I think will help a lot. But to somehow suggest he’s a better player than Jokic is just asinine.

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

Defense is a team game. If your coach has a good scheme and the players buy in, you don’t need great individual defenders to have a good defense and the Nuggest have a great defensive scheme that makes up for Jokicc’s flaws.

I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up.

Great hands? You play defender with your body not your hands.

If he were Lebron you all would be crucifying him but for whatever reason Jokic gets a pass for not being a good defender

Playing team defense takes skill and IQ. Jokic has the highest basketball iq in the game. He knows sets teams run. He coordinates his teammates on the defensive end. That is not a player that is “terrible” on defense. No one is calling him the best defender in the league. He is not elite. But in the same vein he is not “terrible” either

Enjoy your low standards bro

[DimesandKnicks]

excuse me, Jeff Green is an elite defender?
you know none of them sniffed an all nba defensive team?

No, he’s a good defender and if he ain’t than Jokic sure isn’t.

Jeff Green wasn't a good defender even in his prime and In the title run he was a 3rd stringer, good lockeroom vet who was like 36 years old and utterly washed. he was the worst player coming off the bench out of any if the serious playoff teams that season

he was important in that lockeroom etc but on the court? and on D to boot? lol

He’s was 6”9 switchable versatile and solid defender.

[DimesandKnicks]

excuse me, Jeff Green is an elite defender?
you know none of them sniffed an all nba defensive team?

No, he’s a good defender and if he ain’t than Jokic sure isn’t.

you really didn't follow that 23 run, did you?
no, he was not a good defender at all and that was actually a topic that was widely discussed in Denver media at the time.
he looked the part, but he was more of a liability. definitely more than jokic

I wrote a large paragraph, one highlighting the good to great defenders on his team and highlighting Jokic’s increased effort, rim protection and fouls committed and you all are hyper focused on Jeff Green. If you would like to omit Green from the list of the Nuggets good to great defenders in 23, fair. You all are grasping at straws