The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[AleksandarN]

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

Defense is a team game. If your coach has a good scheme and the players buy in, you don’t need great individual defenders to have a good defense and the Nuggest have a great defensive scheme that makes up for Jokicc’s flaws.

I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up.

Great hands? You play defender with your body not your hands.

If he were Lebron you all would be crucifying him but for whatever reason Jokic gets a pass for not being a good defender

Playing team defense takes skill and IQ. Jokic has the highest basketball iq in the game. He knows sets teams run. He coordinates his teammates on the defensive end. That is not a player that is “terrible” on defense. No one is calling him the best defender in the league. He is not elite. But in the same vein he is not “terrible” either

Enjoy your low standards bro

What low standards? He is not a terrible or negative defender as he brings way more to table than rim protection. Funny that you ignore the rest. In high leverage situations Denver’s defense is in the top part of the league and that’s with AG(their best defender) missing half of the season with injuries.

[DimesandKnicks]

Playing team defense takes skill and IQ. Jokic has the highest basketball iq in the game. He knows sets teams run. He coordinates his teammates on the defensive end. That is not a player that is “terrible” on defense. No one is calling him the best defender in the league. He is not elite. But in the same vein he is not “terrible” either

Enjoy your low standards bro

What low standards? He is not a terrible or negative defender as he brings way more to table than rim protection. Funny that you ignore the rest. In high leverage situations Denver’s defense is in the top part of the league and that’s with AG(their best defender) missing half of the season with injuries.

Do yall just not understand that defense about defensive schemes? He is literally the worst in the league at protecting the rim the second to worst in the league at defending layups and dunks and among the worst in the league at defending drives and he’s among the worst starting C’s at defending in space. For a team defensive concept u want your C to be able to defend the hoop he is TERRIBLE AT THIS. He doesn’t guard his matchup if they are offensive threats. His rim protection is due to a complete lack of EFFORT, as evidenced by his run in 2023 when his effort actually made him a Bam level rim protector

Y’all think his quick hands and rebounding outweigh these deficiencies and make him a plus defender. I think that’s a ridiculous take

[AleksandarN]

Enjoy your low standards bro

What low standards? He is not a terrible or negative defender as he brings way more to table than rim protection. Funny that you ignore the rest. In high leverage situations Denver’s defense is in the top part of the league and that’s with AG(their best defender) missing half of the season with injuries.

Do yall just not understand that defense about defensive schemes? He is literally the worst in the league at protecting the rim the second to worst in the league at defending layups and dunks and among the worst in the league at defending drives and he’s among the worst starting C’s at defending in space. For a team defensive concept u want your C to be able to defend the hoop he is TERRIBLE AT THIS. He doesn’t guard his matchup if they are offensive threats. His rim protection is due to a complete lack of EFFORT, as evidenced by his run in 2023 when his effort actually made him a Bam level rim protector

Y’all think his quick hands and rebounding outweigh these deficiencies and make him a plus defender. I think that’s a ridiculous take

As it was stated earlier in this thread by others who replied to you. He is not the worse rim defender in the league. How can anyone take you seriously when use hyperbolic statements like this. Btw defensive schemes only work if you have players who are good at team defense. How hard is it understand this. Unless you are being purposely obtuse. It requires defensive awareness and IQ to be effective team defender. There is a reason why Jokic is one of the leaders in steals, deflections and rebounds per game. Also there have been defenders in the past who were rim protectors but were terrible defenders. So being a shot blocker/ rim defender doesn’t automatically mean you are a good defender.

[AleksandarN]

As a side this is a fair and balanced look at Jokic as a defender. No one is arguing Jokic is an elite defender

Watch on YouTube

[Exp0sed]

No, he’s a good defender and if he ain’t than Jokic sure isn’t.

Jeff Green wasn't a good defender even in his prime and In the title run he was a 3rd stringer, good lockeroom vet who was like 36 years old and utterly washed. he was the worst player coming off the bench out of any if the serious playoff teams that season

he was important in that lockeroom etc but on the court? and on D to boot? lol

He’s was 6”9 switchable versatile and solid defender.

wellm either you didn't watch those games or you don't remember what you did watch. or ur trollin'...

[DimesandKnicks]

What low standards? He is not a terrible or negative defender as he brings way more to table than rim protection. Funny that you ignore the rest. In high leverage situations Denver’s defense is in the top part of the league and that’s with AG(their best defender) missing half of the season with injuries.

Do yall just not understand that defense about defensive schemes? He is literally the worst in the league at protecting the rim the second to worst in the league at defending layups and dunks and among the worst in the league at defending drives and he’s among the worst starting C’s at defending in space. For a team defensive concept u want your C to be able to defend the hoop he is TERRIBLE AT THIS. He doesn’t guard his matchup if they are offensive threats. His rim protection is due to a complete lack of EFFORT, as evidenced by his run in 2023 when his effort actually made him a Bam level rim protector

Y’all think his quick hands and rebounding outweigh these deficiencies and make him a plus defender. I think that’s a ridiculous take

As it was stated earlier in this thread by others who replied to you. He is not the worse rim defender in the league. How can anyone take you seriously when use hyperbolic statements like this. Btw defensive schemes only work if you have players who are good at team defense. How hard is it understand this. Unless you are being purposely obtuse. It requires defensive awareness and IQ to be effective team defender. There is a reason why Jokic is one of the leaders in steals, deflections and rebounds per game. Also there have been defenders in the past who were rim protectors but were terrible defenders. So being a shot blocker/ rim defender doesn’t automatically mean you are a good defender.

He’s a leader in steals because he plays defense with his hands and he’s a leader in rebounds because his PF is AG. So because someone said he’s not one of the worst rim defenders in the league makes it true? Are y’all that freaking delusional? He is not only measurably one of the worst rim protectors in the league, he is one of the worst at defending drives and defending in space.

KAT can defend in in space defend his matchup and is also an elite rebounder. In the right defensive scheme he locked up arguably the greatest offensive big man in NBA history.

All things considered: HE IS ONE OF THE WORST DEFENSIVE BIG MAN I HAVE EVER SEEN PLAY FOR THE KNICKS.

[DimesandKnicks]

As a side this is a fair and balanced look at Jokic as a defender. No one is arguing Jokic is an elite defender

Watch on YouTube

Do yall just have amnesia? Yall post this link than I post the Nuggest defensive scheme link from Thinking basketball about how their defensive schemes make up from Jokic’s poor defense

[DimesandKnicks]

Jeff Green wasn't a good defender even in his prime and In the title run he was a 3rd stringer, good lockeroom vet who was like 36 years old and utterly washed. he was the worst player coming off the bench out of any if the serious playoff teams that season

he was important in that lockeroom etc but on the court? and on D to boot? lol

He’s was 6”9 switchable versatile and solid defender.

wellm either you didn't watch those games or you don't remember what you did watch. or ur trollin'...

Grasping at effing straws. Was the point of that prargraph in that post that Jeff Green was an elite defender or that Jokic played with a bunch of good to great defenders during that run and actually TRIED to play defense?

[AleksandarN]

As a side this is a fair and balanced look at Jokic as a defender. No one is arguing Jokic is an elite defender

Watch on YouTube

Do yall just have amnesia? Yall post this link than I post the Nuggest defensive scheme link from Thinking basketball about how their defensive schemes make up from Jokic’s poor defense

Again defensive schemes only work if you are good at team adefense and defensive awareness to incorporate the said schemes. Just saying oh I have a scheme that works.Again jokic is not a negative defender. He has limitations no one denying it. But what he does have allow certain defensive schemes to work. Jokic knows and understands plays of opposing teams run. More than their own players at times. His anticipation and knowledge/IQ allows for certain schemes to work. He is a good team defender. He coordinates the defense a lot of the time.

[DimesandKnicks]

As a side this is a fair and balanced look at Jokic as a defender. No one is arguing Jokic is an elite defender

Watch on YouTube

Do yall just have amnesia? Yall post this link than I post the Nuggest defensive scheme link from Thinking basketball about how their defensive schemes make up from Jokic’s poor defense

Again defensive schemes only work if you are good at team adefense and defensive awareness to incorporate the said schemes. Just saying oh I have a scheme that works.Again jokic is not a negative defender. He has limitations no one denying it. But what he does have allow certain defensive schemes to work. Jokic knows and understands plays of opposing teams run. More than their own players at times. His anticipation and knowledge/IQ allows for certain schemes to work. He is a good team defender. He coordinates the defense a lot of the time.

A good defender is a good defender independent of defensive schemes. You build your defensive schemes around your good defenders. The Nuggets defense is built to compensate for his weaknesses.

You put him on another team and his defense gets further exposed.

Again Kat can defend an all time great in the right defensive scheme, despite being an absolutely awful defender in another

[zero rings]

He’s was 6”9 switchable versatile and solid defender.

wellm either you didn't watch those games or you don't remember what you did watch. or ur trollin'...

Grasping at effing straws. Was the point of that prargraph in that post that Jeff Green was an elite defender or that Jokic played with a bunch of good to great defenders during that run and actually TRIED to play defense?

Putting Jeff Green on a list of "good to great defenders" is the very definition of grasping at straws. He was probably the worst defensive player in our rotation that year.

Btw, what's Bruce Brown doing these days? He anchoring anyone's defense?

[Big J]

As a side this is a fair and balanced look at Jokic as a defender. No one is arguing Jokic is an elite defender

Watch on YouTube

Do yall just have amnesia? Yall post this link than I post the Nuggest defensive scheme link from Thinking basketball about how their defensive schemes make up from Jokic’s poor defense

Again defensive schemes only work if you are good at team adefense and defensive awareness to incorporate the said schemes. Just saying oh I have a scheme that works.Again jokic is not a negative defender. He has limitations no one denying it. But what he does have allow certain defensive schemes to work. Jokic knows and understands plays of opposing teams run. More than their own players at times. His anticipation and knowledge/IQ allows for certain schemes to work. He is a good team defender. He coordinates the defense a lot of the time.

This scheme works against fine most teams, but it is gimmicky because it completely breaks down against teams that have quick guards and forwards who can pass well.

[DimesandKnicks]

wellm either you didn't watch those games or you don't remember what you did watch. or ur trollin'...

Grasping at effing straws. Was the point of that prargraph in that post that Jeff Green was an elite defender or that Jokic played with a bunch of good to great defenders during that run and actually TRIED to play defense?

Putting Jeff Green on a list of "good to great defenders" is the very definition of grasping at straws. He was probably the worst defensive player in our rotation that year.

Btw, what's Bruce Brown doing these days? He anchoring anyone's defense?

My effing god, that wasn’t the freaking point

Zero Rings, emitt Jeff Green from the list of good to great defenders and than act like the rest of those players on that list are who they are.

The arguments you all are making are just pathetic. Did I say Bruce Brown anchored the defense or did I say he’s a good defender.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

No, he’s a good defender and if he ain’t than Jokic sure isn’t.

you really didn't follow that 23 run, did you?
no, he was not a good defender at all and that was actually a topic that was widely discussed in Denver media at the time.
he looked the part, but he was more of a liability. definitely more than jokic

I wrote a large paragraph, one highlighting the good to great defenders on his team and highlighting Jokic’s increased effort, rim protection and fouls committed and you all are hyper focused on Jeff Green. If you would like to omit Green from the list of the Nuggets good to great defenders in 23, fair. You all are grasping at straws

look, it's not like Jeff Green is that important for this discussion. It's that mentioning him you somehow signaled that either you didn't watch or you didn't understand what you were watching.
and that affects all the other argument you're making

[Peregrine01]

Jeff Green is suddenly a "good to great" defender in 2023? Good God. These Jokic haters really grasping at anything to diminish him.

[zero rings]

Grasping at effing straws. Was the point of that prargraph in that post that Jeff Green was an elite defender or that Jokic played with a bunch of good to great defenders during that run and actually TRIED to play defense?

Putting Jeff Green on a list of "good to great defenders" is the very definition of grasping at straws. He was probably the worst defensive player in our rotation that year.

Btw, what's Bruce Brown doing these days? He anchoring anyone's defense?

My effing god, that wasn’t the freaking point

Zero Rings, emitt Jeff Green from the list of good to great defenders and than act like the rest of those players on that list are who they are.

The arguments you all are making are just pathetic. Did I say Bruce Brown anchored the defense or did I say he’s a good defender.

Bringing up Jeff Green just shows that you didn't pay attention to the 23 Nuggets, and you're just naming players that were on the team. Even Bruce Brown was just an average defender for us. He was probably better on offense tbh

AG and KCP are plus defenders, for sure, but not anything special compared to what the other top teams have.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Do yall just have amnesia? Yall post this link than I post the Nuggest defensive scheme link from Thinking basketball about how their defensive schemes make up from Jokic’s poor defense

Again defensive schemes only work if you are good at team adefense and defensive awareness to incorporate the said schemes. Just saying oh I have a scheme that works.Again jokic is not a negative defender. He has limitations no one denying it. But what he does have allow certain defensive schemes to work. Jokic knows and understands plays of opposing teams run. More than their own players at times. His anticipation and knowledge/IQ allows for certain schemes to work. He is a good team defender. He coordinates the defense a lot of the time.

This scheme works against fine most teams, but it is gimmicky because it completely breaks down against teams that have quick guards and forwards who can pass well.

does it?

[DimesandKnicks]

Putting Jeff Green on a list of "good to great defenders" is the very definition of grasping at straws. He was probably the worst defensive player in our rotation that year.

Btw, what's Bruce Brown doing these days? He anchoring anyone's defense?

My effing god, that wasn’t the freaking point

Zero Rings, emitt Jeff Green from the list of good to great defenders and than act like the rest of those players on that list are who they are.

The arguments you all are making are just pathetic. Did I say Bruce Brown anchored the defense or did I say he’s a good defender.

Bringing up Jeff Green just shows that you didn't pay attention to the 23 Nuggets, and you're just naming players that were on the team. Even Bruce Brown was just an average defender for us. He was probably better on offense tbh

AG and KCP are plus defenders, for sure, but not anything special compared to what the other top teams have.

Got it moving on

[Exp0sed]

My effing god, that wasn’t the freaking point

Zero Rings, emitt Jeff Green from the list of good to great defenders and than act like the rest of those players on that list are who they are.

The arguments you all are making are just pathetic. Did I say Bruce Brown anchored the defense or did I say he’s a good defender.

there is no "list"

the only players on that roster that might be considered "great defenders" (depending on what u mean by "great") were AG and KCP and in reality both are very good but certainly not "great" defenders.

Watson who played some rotation mins is the best shot-blocker and has the highest defensive ceiling but he was (and is) very young and very inconsistent and prone to many blown coverages and lapses in reading the game. he might be a great defender some day but he wasn't one in that title run

Braun was a rookie but was pretty solid too defensively, pretty good for a rookie but ya know..very far from great, he wa a serviceable defender

Bruce Brown is a good defender too

Murray and MPJ aren't good defenders, they're mediocre on a good day on that end

so by my count, they had zero "great" defenders. AG and KCP are more like in the upper 30% of defenders in their position than say, the top 10%. that's cool but it's far from "great" and yes, the Nuggets had a decent amount of good and capable defenders, AG\KCP\Brown\Watson and a couple of below avg defenders (MPJ and Murray) and one god awful defender in the corpse of Jeff Green

how does get that you a top 3 defense in the postseason if Jokic is a "terrible" defender? oh I forgot, he made an effort in the playoffs so he wasn't terrible anymore in fact he was pretty damn good. is that what ur going with now?

this year's OKC whose breaking defensive records has like 5 defenders in their 10 man rotation that are better than any defender the Nuggets had that season, trying to make it look like that Nuggets squad was filled with great defenders is laughable and is just another troll attempt to detract from Jokic's greatness

I guess he's reached that LBJ level now when some folks are just fabricating completely ridiclous arguments just to put him down

[hardenASG13]

Playing team defense takes skill and IQ. Jokic has the highest basketball iq in the game. He knows sets teams run. He coordinates his teammates on the defensive end. That is not a player that is “terrible” on defense. No one is calling him the best defender in the league. He is not elite. But in the same vein he is not “terrible” either

Enjoy your low standards bro

What low standards? He is not a terrible or negative defender as he brings way more to table than rim protection. Funny that you ignore the rest. In high leverage situations Denver’s defense is in the top part of the league and that’s with AG(their best defender) missing half of the season with injuries.

Do you think Jokic is the only player that knows the plays the other team runs? They all watch tape, all the time. There are other players all over the league, and also on Denver, that know some of the other teams plays. They go over it on the scout. This isn't some unique positive for Jokic. It's an expectation in a walk through.