The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[MrPainfulTruth]

There are two certain groups of fans and professional influencers who are constantly attempting to discredit the greatness of Joker. Objectively there has never been a player no matter how great who had no weakness. MJ had no reliable three and was average assisting, LBJ had zero outside game or footwork, Steph has no defense, KD isnt a great facilitator and so on. It didnt keep them from being considered all time greats, HOF'ers, even GOATs because one flaw doesnt completely negate the upside these guys had. Only in Jokics case are people trying to tell us that his lack of shot blocking is the sole reason to disrespect him. Why? Who has an interest, who feels threatened by him? I'll leave it up to everyone to guess, but its pretty simple once you look at the most active posters here and their posting history. A very simple pattern actually.

[BigGargamel]

There are two certain groups of fans and professional influencers who are constantly attempting to discredit the greatness of Joker. Objectively there has never been a player no matter how great who had no weakness. MJ had no reliable three and was average assisting, LBJ had zero outside game or footwork, Steph has no defense, KD isnt a great facilitator and so on. It didnt keep them from being considered all time greats, HOF'ers, even GOATs because one flaw doesnt completely negate the upside these guys had. Only in Jokics case are people trying to tell us that his lack of shot blocking is the sole reason to disrespect him. Why? Who has an interest, who feels threatened by him? I'll leave it up to everyone to guess, but its pretty simple once you look at the most active posters here and their posting history. A very simple pattern actually.

Jokic has been dominating the sport of basketball for almost half a decade. People get tired of that, and they resort to hating and nitpicking. It happens all the time with players and teams.

[DimesandKnicks]

Spoiler:

My effing god, that wasn’t the freaking point

Zero Rings, emitt Jeff Green from the list of good to great defenders and than act like the rest of those players on that list are who they are.

The arguments you all are making are just pathetic. Did I say Bruce Brown anchored the defense or did I say he’s a good defender.

there is no "list"

the only players on that roster that might be considered "great defenders" (depending on what u mean by "great") were AG and KCP and in reality both are very good but certainly not "great" defenders.

Watson who played some rotation mins is the best shot-blocker and has the highest defensive ceiling but he was (and is) very young and very inconsistent and prone to many blown coverages and lapses in reading the game. he might be a great defender some day but he wasn't one in that title run

Braun was a rookie but was pretty solid too defensively, pretty good for a rookie but ya know..very far from great, he wa a serviceable defender

Bruce Brown is a good defender too

Murray and MPJ aren't good defenders, they're mediocre on a good day on that end

so by my count, they had zero "great" defenders. AG and KCP are more like in the upper 30% of defenders in their position than say, the top 10%. that's cool but it's far from "great" and yes, the Nuggets had a decent amount of good and capable defenders, AG\KCP\Brown\Watson and a couple of below avg defenders (MPJ and Murray) and one god awful defender in the corpse of Jeff Green

how does get that you a top 3 defense in the postseason if Jokic is a "terrible" defender? oh I forgot, he made an effort in the playoffs so he wasn't terrible anymore in fact he was pretty damn good. is that what ur going with now?

this year's OKC whose breaking defensive records has like 5 defenders in their 10 man rotation that are better than any defender the Nuggets had that season, trying to make it look like that Nuggets squad was filled with great defenders is laughable and is just another troll attempt to detract from Jokic's greatness

I guess he's reached that LBJ level now when some folks are just fabricating completely ridiclous arguments just to put him down

I said good to great with your non reading ass. AG, KCP, Bruce Brown are good all good defenders. Perimeter defenders that fight over screens and empower a Jokic to play drop coverage better. You want the clip of Jokic giving this players credit himself? Saying all he has to do is not **** it up? Mike Malone is a great coach with a great defensive scheme and when u have a C defending the rim at an above average level while being an elite rebounder now you have a great defense.

Personal Attack

[DimesandKnicks]

There are two certain groups of fans and professional influencers who are constantly attempting to discredit the greatness of Joker. Objectively there has never been a player no matter how great who had no weakness. MJ had no reliable three and was average assisting, LBJ had zero outside game or footwork, Steph has no defense, KD isnt a great facilitator and so on. It didnt keep them from being considered all time greats, HOF'ers, even GOATs because one flaw doesnt completely negate the upside these guys had. Only in Jokics case are people trying to tell us that his lack of shot blocking is the sole reason to disrespect him. Why? Who has an interest, who feels threatened by him? I'll leave it up to everyone to guess, but its pretty simple once you look at the most active posters here and their posting history. A very simple pattern actually.

Jokic has been dominating the sport of basketball for almost half a decade. People get tired of that, and they resort to hating and nitpicking. It happens all the time with players and teams.

At of all the ATG players Jokic is the worst defender outside of maybe Magic who at least has utility as an oversized guard who could defend PF. He is a great player…we are simply highlighting his flaws just as we would with any other player.

Where not disrespecting him by saying he isn’t good at what he isn’t good at. We simply stating an objective truth while others want to create some abstract standard that fit a narrative that his flaws aren’t his flaws.

[Exp0sed]

My effing god, that wasn’t the freaking point

Zero Rings, emitt Jeff Green from the list of good to great defenders and than act like the rest of those players on that list are who they are.

The arguments you all are making are just pathetic. Did I say Bruce Brown anchored the defense or did I say he’s a good defender.

t

I said good to great with your non reading ass. AG, KCP, Bruce Brown are good all good defenders. Perimeter defenders that fight over screens and empower a Jokic to play drop coverage better. You want the clip of Jokic giving this players credit himself? Saying all he has to do is not **** it up? Mike Malone is a great coach with a great defensive scheme and when u have a C defending the rim at an above average level while being an elite rebounder now you have a great defense.

not one of them reaches "great" so it's not "good to great" and you forgot to mention the bad ones, the scale actually goes from bad to great

yes, those three you named are good defenders. Nuggets played drop pretty sporadically in that run - Jokic was high on most screens. obviously in the rs, there's more drop to conserve energy etc..

Malone is not a "great" coach, but that's beside the point (he would be an assistant coach now if he hadn't lucked into the organization drafting Jokic)

so ur saying he defended the rim at an above average level? because rim protection is one his weaker defensive attrbutes. elite rebounding is a part of great defense? good to know, cuz that's one of his best attributes. so basically ur agreeing that not only he isn't a "terrible" defender, he's actually a pretty good one all in all?

finally we can agree then...

[DimesandKnicks]

t

I said good to great with your non reading ass. AG, KCP, Bruce Brown are good all good defenders. Perimeter defenders that fight over screens and empower a Jokic to play drop coverage better. You want the clip of Jokic giving this players credit himself? Saying all he has to do is not **** it up? Mike Malone is a great coach with a great defensive scheme and when u have a C defending the rim at an above average level while being an elite rebounder now you have a great defense.

not one of them reaches "great" so it's not "good to great" and you forgot to mention the bad ones, the scale actually goes from bad to great

yes, those three you named are good defenders. Nuggets played drop pretty sporadically in that run - Jokic was high on most screens. obviously in the rs, there's more drop to conserve energy etc..

Malone is not a "great" coach, but that's beside the point (he would be an assistant coach now if he hadn't lucked into the organization drafting Jokic)

so ur saying he defended the rim at an above average level? because rim protection is one his weaker defensive attrbutes. elite rebounding is a part of great defense? good to know, cuz that's one of his best attributes. so basically ur agreeing that not only he isn't a "terrible" defender, he's actually a pretty good one all in all?

finally we can agree then...

it’s like going back and forth with my delusional ex girlfriend. I truly do appreciate Dsilv and tsherkin after going back and forth with some of you

[hardenASG13]

There are two certain groups of fans and professional influencers who are constantly attempting to discredit the greatness of Joker. Objectively there has never been a player no matter how great who had no weakness. MJ had no reliable three and was average assisting, LBJ had zero outside game or footwork, Steph has no defense, KD isnt a great facilitator and so on. It didnt keep them from being considered all time greats, HOF'ers, even GOATs because one flaw doesnt completely negate the upside these guys had. Only in Jokics case are people trying to tell us that his lack of shot blocking is the sole reason to disrespect him. Why? Who has an interest, who feels threatened by him? I'll leave it up to everyone to guess, but its pretty simple once you look at the most active posters here and their posting history. A very simple pattern actually.

Jokic has been dominating the sport of basketball for almost half a decade. People get tired of that, and they resort to hating and nitpicking. It happens all the time with players and teams.

At of all the ATG players Jokic is the worst defender outside of maybe Magic who at least has utility as an oversized guard who could defend PF. He is a great player…we are simply highlighting his flaws just as we would with any other player.

Where not disrespecting him by saying he isn’t good at what he isn’t good at. We simply stating an objective truth while others want to create some abstract standard that fit a narrative that his flaws aren’t his flaws.

Right? Jokic has 3 MVPs, with minimal quality playoff series wins, he's gonna get nitpicked. He should have a shot to take down some major teams this year and will need to to enter any GOAT talks. People say hes having the GOAT peak because of stats? Then beat an OKC and/or Boston (or a 2024 Minnesota).

[AleksandarN]

Enjoy your low standards bro

What low standards? He is not a terrible or negative defender as he brings way more to table than rim protection. Funny that you ignore the rest. In high leverage situations Denver’s defense is in the top part of the league and that’s with AG(their best defender) missing half of the season with injuries.

Do you think Jokic is the only player that knows the plays the other team runs? They all watch tape, all the time. There are other players all over the league, and also on Denver, that know some of the other teams plays. They go over it on the scout. This isn't some unique positive for Jokic. It's an expectation in a walk through.

Well it was a surprise to ANT and Golbert. Seems like it given their surprise and reaction it is not common place like you make it out to be as you said with all players watch tape. Maybe you know more than more than them. If you do hats off you.

[DimesandKnicks]

Jokic has been dominating the sport of basketball for almost half a decade. People get tired of that, and they resort to hating and nitpicking. It happens all the time with players and teams.

At of all the ATG players Jokic is the worst defender outside of maybe Magic who at least has utility as an oversized guard who could defend PF. He is a great player…we are simply highlighting his flaws just as we would with any other player.

Where not disrespecting him by saying he isn’t good at what he isn’t good at. We simply stating an objective truth while others want to create some abstract standard that fit a narrative that his flaws aren’t his flaws.

Right? Jokic has 3 MVPs, with minimal quality playoff series wins, he's gonna get nitpicked. He should have a shot to take down some major teams this year and will need to to enter any GOAT talks. People say hes having the GOAT peak because of stats? Then beat an OKC and/or Boston (or a 2024 Minnesota).

People saying he’s having a GOAT peak, which I don’t necessarily disagree with, are ignoring that defense is half of the game and wins championships

[AleksandarN]

I said good to great with your non reading ass. AG, KCP, Bruce Brown are good all good defenders. Perimeter defenders that fight over screens and empower a Jokic to play drop coverage better. You want the clip of Jokic giving this players credit himself? Saying all he has to do is not **** it up? Mike Malone is a great coach with a great defensive scheme and when u have a C defending the rim at an above average level while being an elite rebounder now you have a great defense.

not one of them reaches "great" so it's not "good to great" and you forgot to mention the bad ones, the scale actually goes from bad to great

yes, those three you named are good defenders. Nuggets played drop pretty sporadically in that run - Jokic was high on most screens. obviously in the rs, there's more drop to conserve energy etc..

Malone is not a "great" coach, but that's beside the point (he would be an assistant coach now if he hadn't lucked into the organization drafting Jokic)

so ur saying he defended the rim at an above average level? because rim protection is one his weaker defensive attrbutes. elite rebounding is a part of great defense? good to know, cuz that's one of his best attributes. so basically ur agreeing that not only he isn't a "terrible" defender, he's actually a pretty good one all in all?

finally we can agree then...

it’s like going back and forth with my delusional ex girlfriend. I truly do appreciate Dsilv and tsherkin after going back and forth with some of you

I feel going back and forth with you is like talking to a Trump supporter.

[MrPainfulTruth]

There are two certain groups of fans and professional influencers who are constantly attempting to discredit the greatness of Joker. Objectively there has never been a player no matter how great who had no weakness. MJ had no reliable three and was average assisting, LBJ had zero outside game or footwork, Steph has no defense, KD isnt a great facilitator and so on. It didnt keep them from being considered all time greats, HOF'ers, even GOATs because one flaw doesnt completely negate the upside these guys had. Only in Jokics case are people trying to tell us that his lack of shot blocking is the sole reason to disrespect him. Why? Who has an interest, who feels threatened by him? I'll leave it up to everyone to guess, but its pretty simple once you look at the most active posters here and their posting history. A very simple pattern actually.

Jokic has been dominating the sport of basketball for almost half a decade. People get tired of that, and they resort to hating and nitpicking. It happens all the time with players and teams.

At of all the ATG players Jokic is the worst defender outside of maybe Magic who at least has utility as an oversized guard who could defend PF. He is a great player…we are simply highlighting his flaws just as we would with any other player.

Where not disrespecting him by saying he isn’t good at what he isn’t good at. We simply stating an objective truth while others want to create some abstract standard that fit a narrative that his flaws aren’t his flaws.

Nothing you sated is the "objective truth". Its your personal, weighted and flawed opinion.

[DimesandKnicks]

Jokic has been dominating the sport of basketball for almost half a decade. People get tired of that, and they resort to hating and nitpicking. It happens all the time with players and teams.

At of all the ATG players Jokic is the worst defender outside of maybe Magic who at least has utility as an oversized guard who could defend PF. He is a great player…we are simply highlighting his flaws just as we would with any other player.

Where not disrespecting him by saying he isn’t good at what he isn’t good at. We simply stating an objective truth while others want to create some abstract standard that fit a narrative that his flaws aren’t his flaws.

Nothing you sated is the "objective truth". Its your personal, weighted and flawed opinion.

It’s been measured and you can use your eyes. But go off king

[MrPainfulTruth]

At of all the ATG players Jokic is the worst defender outside of maybe Magic who at least has utility as an oversized guard who could defend PF. He is a great player…we are simply highlighting his flaws just as we would with any other player.

Where not disrespecting him by saying he isn’t good at what he isn’t good at. We simply stating an objective truth while others want to create some abstract standard that fit a narrative that his flaws aren’t his flaws.

Nothing you sated is the "objective truth". Its your personal, weighted and flawed opinion.

It’s been measured and you can use your eyes. But go off king

I can indeed use my eyes, and i also know how to scientifically use statistics instead of hand picking numbers that suit your narrative. Its tiring at times to discuss this stuff with "fans", i'm sorry if i came off rude.

[hardenASG13]

What low standards? He is not a terrible or negative defender as he brings way more to table than rim protection. Funny that you ignore the rest. In high leverage situations Denver’s defense is in the top part of the league and that’s with AG(their best defender) missing half of the season with injuries.

Do you think Jokic is the only player that knows the plays the other team runs? They all watch tape, all the time. There are other players all over the league, and also on Denver, that know some of the other teams plays. They go over it on the scout. This isn't some unique positive for Jokic. It's an expectation in a walk through.

Well it was a surprise to ANT and Golbert. Seems like it given their surprise and reaction it is not common place like you make it out to be as you said with all players watch tape. Maybe you know more than more than them. If you do hats off you.

A good high school varsity team will know the other teams preferred plays.

[MrPainfulTruth]

Do you think Jokic is the only player that knows the plays the other team runs? They all watch tape, all the time. There are other players all over the league, and also on Denver, that know some of the other teams plays. They go over it on the scout. This isn't some unique positive for Jokic. It's an expectation in a walk through.

Well it was a surprise to ANT and Golbert. Seems like it given their surprise and reaction it is not common place like you make it out to be as you said with all players watch tape. Maybe you know more than more than them. If you do hats off you.

A good high school varsity team will know the other teams preferred plays.

Its not about preferred plays. It was a special end of quarter sideline out of bounds play. these are run very rarely and kept secret. I dont think he "knew" it, i think he read the setup.

[Exp0sed]

People saying he’s having a GOAT peak, which I don’t necessarily disagree with, are ignoring that defense is half of the game and wins championships

you mean defense like the one he anchored that was 3rd best among playoff teams and led them to their first title in 47 years?

i'll let you in on a little secret, in basketball - offense and defense are woven into each other and one affects the other
check out the average point per play following a made basket vs. after a miss (for example) - there's a huge gap, right?

now Jokic is a GOAT level offensive player whose an offensive system all on his own basically, an elite offensive system that elevates the four guys that are on the court with him. this is why he was able to carry Will Barton and Facu Campazzo to the playoffs and 48 wins in the brutal Western conference with a top 6 offense, with his number 2 and 3 both under max contracts sitting the entire season in street clothes on the bench

an elite offense (Denver is 3rd this year) means more made baskets where the defense has time to set (usually means less To's to and we all know that live ball turnovers lead to some of the highest PPP in basketball)

the gap in efficiency attacking a set defense vs. attacking a scrambling defense is very substantial in the NBA.

Jokic scores in volumes and ultra efficienctly and he gets everyone involved, getting his teammates high % shots and a he's always boasted a great AST\TO ratio, which is incredible considering the amount of defensive attention including double and triple teams he's constantly getting and the difficulty level of his passes and playmaking

the best defense is sometimes..offense

if Jokic is a GOAT level offensive player but a terrible defender, we would expect the Nuggets offense to plummet without him on the court but we should expect the defense getting better and even considerably better, no? that's never been the case, I wonder why that is?

Dirk had a similar effect btw, whereas despite the eye test and everything else pointing to him being a pretty bad defender - those Mavs teams weren't really doing better defensively with Dirk the defensive "liability" off the court. maybe it's the defensive attention they're getting, or the energy expanded to defend them (which is then lacking at the other end), who knows?

Jokic does that better as a scorer and lightyears better as playmaker and he has that effect on the entire opposing team because with Dirk it was about crowding him but every possesion you had guys whose offensive opponents were way off the ball and could rest on D but with Jokic's passing - no1 can rest for a sec, because ur guy is always a little cut, slip or a backdoor away from a layup a dunk or an open 3

at the end of the day, the math says ur better defensiely with Jokic making buckets and getting buckets for his team which allows the Nuggets defense to set, than you would be with Bam whose a better defender, but him getting buckets much less frequently and much less efficiently, means you have to defend many more possesions that innately have a much higher expected point per play for your opponent

you can try to pin their 2023 defense on KCP or 6th man Brown or even the worst defender in those playoffs in Jeff Green (lol) but Jokic played a key role in their playoff defense and it's success. does he have some very glaring defensive limitations? sure

I really thought the "Jokic is a terrible defender" narrative died a few years back..

[AleksandarN]

Do you think Jokic is the only player that knows the plays the other team runs? They all watch tape, all the time. There are other players all over the league, and also on Denver, that know some of the other teams plays. They go over it on the scout. This isn't some unique positive for Jokic. It's an expectation in a walk through.

Well it was a surprise to ANT and Golbert. Seems like it given their surprise and reaction it is not common place like you make it out to be as you said with all players watch tape. Maybe you know more than more than them. If you do hats off you.

A good high school varsity team will know the other teams preferred plays.

Explain the bewildered expressions and reactions from ANT and Rudy not only called out the play they were about the run but the actions and counters to the same play. Not all players can do that. But maybe you know more than Rudy and ANT

[Alatan]

how about a playoff run where teams game plan for him and in theory (according to u) should be able to exploit his "terrible" defense and yet the Nuggets had the 3rd best playoff defense out of the 16 playoff teams in their title run, with Jokic playing alongside defensive juggenauts like MPJ and Murray in the starting lineup?

His defense is very underrated. He has gotten himself into good shape and hustles hard. His size and length bothers anyone he is close to and his hands are outstanding which is why he is one of the league leaders in steals. His defense is definitely not a negative. It’s not Anthony Davis, but he is an overall plus and better than most starting Cs. Yeah if he gets switched onto a small guard it can be a problem, but Denver does a pretty good job making sure it doesn’t happen. He is also very high IQ and knows where he is supposed to be.

Then factor in that he’s one of the greatest offensive players ever, easy top 5 and maybe wind up at number 1 by the end of his career… well, the guy is amazing. One of the best passers ever, easily the best guy ever with his size. Fantastic post game. Fantastic shooter. Fantastic size and fantastic decision making.

The Nuggets are a losing team without him on the court. They have one of the best point differentials with him on it.

I get if someone loves Luka, guy is an incredible talent. Just pure natural basketball ability and a build to go with. But he isn’t Jokic. He’s a little bit worse at almost everything. He could be better if he took his conditioning more seriously, IMO. Having Lebron to help guide him I think will help a lot. But to somehow suggest he’s a better player than Jokic is just asinine.

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

Defense is a team game. If your coach has a good scheme and the players buy in, you don’t need great individual defenders to have a good defense and the Nuggest have a great defensive scheme that makes up for Jokicc’s flaws.

I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up.

Great hands? You play defender with your body not your hands.

If he were Lebron you all would be crucifying him but for whatever reason Jokic gets a pass for not being a good defender

It appears to me that you base your oppinion on a few lowlight plays from the regular season where Jokic really doesnt give a damn and is playing matador defense to preserve himself.
Jokic at his best is an average to above average defender that is still a terrible rim protector but pretty good at most other things expected of a C while also bringing defensive qualaties not expected of a C.
The point is that his detractors want to paint him as a overrated one-dimensional player that lucked into success by circumstance and effort of his underrated teamates while in reality the dude carries a bunch of average guys and scrubs deep into the playoffs every season.
But it doesnt matter. Eventualy Jokic will prevail, even against the efforts of his incompetent front office to keep him surrounded by mediocrity. He is just that good.

[tsherkin]

It’s been measured and you can use your eyes. But go off king

I think the crux of your problem is that you can't move beyond the idea that his rim protection isn't the full measure of his utility on defense.

[DimesandKnicks]

It’s been measured and you can use your eyes. But go off king

I think the crux of your problem is that you can't move beyond the idea that his rim protection isn't the full measure of his utility on defense.

Then you’re ignoring every flaw I highlighted outside of his rim protection across multiple threads on the subject and it’s just strange that despite you being one of the main ppl I engage with on the subject that you’re acting like that’s the crux of my argument