The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[BigGargamel]

Nobody gives a crap about defense unless it's Jokic. Then they go to extremes to discredit him even though he's not nearly as bad as people want to make it out to be.

Offense and defense are not the same amount of important, not even close. Offense will always matter more when judging a players greatness.

[DimesandKnicks]

His defense is very underrated. He has gotten himself into good shape and hustles hard. His size and length bothers anyone he is close to and his hands are outstanding which is why he is one of the league leaders in steals. His defense is definitely not a negative. It’s not Anthony Davis, but he is an overall plus and better than most starting Cs. Yeah if he gets switched onto a small guard it can be a problem, but Denver does a pretty good job making sure it doesn’t happen. He is also very high IQ and knows where he is supposed to be.

Then factor in that he’s one of the greatest offensive players ever, easy top 5 and maybe wind up at number 1 by the end of his career… well, the guy is amazing. One of the best passers ever, easily the best guy ever with his size. Fantastic post game. Fantastic shooter. Fantastic size and fantastic decision making.

The Nuggets are a losing team without him on the court. They have one of the best point differentials with him on it.

I get if someone loves Luka, guy is an incredible talent. Just pure natural basketball ability and a build to go with. But he isn’t Jokic. He’s a little bit worse at almost everything. He could be better if he took his conditioning more seriously, IMO. Having Lebron to help guide him I think will help a lot. But to somehow suggest he’s a better player than Jokic is just asinine.

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

Defense is a team game. If your coach has a good scheme and the players buy in, you don’t need great individual defenders to have a good defense and the Nuggest have a great defensive scheme that makes up for Jokicc’s flaws.

I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up.

Great hands? You play defender with your body not your hands.

If he were Lebron you all would be crucifying him but for whatever reason Jokic gets a pass for not being a good defender

It appears to me that you base your oppinion on a few lowlight plays from the regular season where Jokic really doesnt give a damn and is playing matador defense to preserve himself.
Jokic at his best is an average to above average defender that is still a terrible rim protector but pretty good at most other things expected of a C while also bringing defensive qualaties not expected of a C.
The point is that his detractors want to paint him as a overrated one-dimensional player that lucked into success by circumstance and effort of his underrated teamates while in reality the dude carries a bunch of average guys and scrubs deep into the playoffs every season.
But it doesnt matter. Eventualy Jokic will prevail, even against the efforts of his incompetent front office to keep him surrounded by mediocrity. He is just that good.

You’re wrong. My opinion comes from watching entire games against the Knicks and more importantly glueing my eyes on him on defense during the Timberwolves series. That isn’t meaningless.

When I posted the highlights of their last Knick game l, after actually watching the game, I asked: is this a reflection on how he defends? And if it is, in my opinion he’s not a plus defender.

If hiding on Mcdaniels while MJP is forced to defend Naz Reid or Kat because Jokic either can’t defend either or can’t defend his matchup without fouling, then to me he simply is not a good defender.

The same way that despite KATs ability to defend in space defend Jokic well in the playoffs in the right scheme and rebound at an elite level his is a god awful defender

[DimesandKnicks]

Nobody gives a crap about defense unless it's Jokic. Then they go to extremes to discredit him even though he's not nearly as bad as people want to make it out to be.

Offense and defense are not the same amount of important, not even close. Offense will always matter more when judging a players greatness.

Whether or not offense and defense is the same is t the argument being made. You evaluate a player holistically, as a rebounder man defender help defender, on offense with the ball in his hand without the ball in his hand, but somehow evaluating Jokic’s defense is like saying Voldemort

[tsherkin]

It’s been measured and you can use your eyes. But go off king

I think the crux of your problem is that you can't move beyond the idea that his rim protection isn't the full measure of his utility on defense.

Then you’re ignoring every flaw I highlighted outside of his rim protection across multiple threads on the subject and it’s just strange that despite you being one of the main ppl I engage with on the subject that you’re acting like that’s the crux of my argument

Most of what I see you posting in this thread has been about rim protection while ignoring every other available piece of evidence regarding his defense, though. And about how defense operates. And then personal attacks against other posters when you get frustrated. Wherefore my response.

Before I proceed, understand that I do not consider Jokic an especially above average defensive impact player overall. I think his other traits help make up for his rim protection, which leaves him capable of operating in the defensive scheme the Nuggets play without causing huge issues. He hits the DRBs well, he uses his hands well, he positions well, etc. But he certainly isn't an elite defender.

To whit, over the past 4 pages, your main arguments can be itemized as:

- "I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up."

So, rim protection.

- "Do yall just not understand that defense about defensive schemes? He is literally the worst in the league at protecting the rim the second to worst in the league at defending layups and dunks and among the worst in the league at defending drives and he’s among the worst starting C’s at defending in space."

Again, primarily about rim protection.

- "He’s a leader in steals because he plays defense with his hands and he’s a leader in rebounds because his PF is AG."

Minimizing his strengths for no reason.

Let's go back further, because maybe that isn't sufficiently representative of your full view, right? This is a 20-page thread, after all.

- "Per a 2023 article in March, Jokic allowed the highest FG percentage among players who defended at least 300 shots at the rim"

More rim protection.

- "But deflections and rebounds makes your good defender. You guys are hopeless"

More minimization. And then making it personal again.

And that takes us back to page 12, which is I think where I first jumped into this conversation. So at least you can understand how my perception of your argument has been shaped by the 8 or 9 pages where I've been paying much attention. It's banging the gong of rim protection and not acknowledging any other element of defense, at least to my perception. And that means ignoring him being 6th in the league in deflections per game, being 4th in SPG and 3rd in total steals, right? Like, majorly useful things. Possession-changing things, more reliably so than blocks (though obviously blocks do not fully equate to rim protection, obviously).

Then there's the other stuff. He's +1.2 in D-EPM. If I'm not mistaken, his D-RAPTOR is also +1.0. There are some numbers which indicate he's far less terrible than you've been trying to portray in this thread. Not amazing, maybe not even above average overall. But certainly not as bad as your endless invective over his rim protection has implied, you know?

[AleksandarN]

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

Defense is a team game. If your coach has a good scheme and the players buy in, you don’t need great individual defenders to have a good defense and the Nuggest have a great defensive scheme that makes up for Jokicc’s flaws.

I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up.

Great hands? You play defender with your body not your hands.

If he were Lebron you all would be crucifying him but for whatever reason Jokic gets a pass for not being a good defender

It appears to me that you base your oppinion on a few lowlight plays from the regular season where Jokic really doesnt give a damn and is playing matador defense to preserve himself.
Jokic at his best is an average to above average defender that is still a terrible rim protector but pretty good at most other things expected of a C while also bringing defensive qualaties not expected of a C.
The point is that his detractors want to paint him as a overrated one-dimensional player that lucked into success by circumstance and effort of his underrated teamates while in reality the dude carries a bunch of average guys and scrubs deep into the playoffs every season.
But it doesnt matter. Eventualy Jokic will prevail, even against the efforts of his incompetent front office to keep him surrounded by mediocrity. He is just that good.

You’re wrong. My opinion comes from watching entire games against the Knicks and more importantly glueing my eyes on him on defense during the Timberwolves series. That isn’t meaningless.

When I posted the highlights of their last Knick game l, after actually watching the game, I asked: is this a reflection on how he defends? And if it is, in my opinion he’s not a plus defender.

If hiding on Mcdaniels while MJP is forced to defend Naz Reid or Kat because Jokic either can’t defend either or can’t defend his matchup without fouling, then to me he simply is not a good defender.

The same way that despite KATs ability to defend in space defend Jokic well in the playoffs in the right scheme and rebound at an elite level his is a god awful defender

Didn’t you just talk about small sample size in one of your posts earlier posts and you are basing on how many FULL games. The ones against the Knicks and Wolves. That’s hilarious

[DimesandKnicks]

I think the crux of your problem is that you can't move beyond the idea that his rim protection isn't the full measure of his utility on defense.

Then you’re ignoring every flaw I highlighted outside of his rim protection across multiple threads on the subject and it’s just strange that despite you being one of the main ppl I engage with on the subject that you’re acting like that’s the crux of my argument

Most of what I see you posting in this thread has been about rim protection while ignoring every other available piece of evidence regarding his defense, though. And about how defense operates. And then personal attacks against other posters when you get frustrated. Wherefore my response.

Before I proceed, understand that I do not consider Jokic an especially above average defensive impact player overall. I think his other traits help make up for his rim protection, which leaves him capable of operating in the defensive scheme the Nuggets play without causing huge issues. He hits the DRBs well, he uses his hands well, he positions well, etc. But he certainly isn't an elite defender.

To whit, over the past 4 pages, your main arguments can be itemized as:

- "I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up."

So, rim protection.

- "Do yall just not understand that defense about defensive schemes? He is literally the worst in the league at protecting the rim the second to worst in the league at defending layups and dunks and among the worst in the league at defending drives and he’s among the worst starting C’s at defending in space."

Again, primarily about rim protection.

- "He’s a leader in steals because he plays defense with his hands and he’s a leader in rebounds because his PF is AG."

Minimizing his strengths for no reason.

Let's go back further, because maybe that isn't sufficiently representative of your full view, right? This is a 20-page thread, after all.

- "Per a 2023 article in March, Jokic allowed the highest FG percentage among players who defended at least 300 shots at the rim"

More rim protection.

- "But deflections and rebounds makes your good defender. You guys are hopeless"

More minimization. And then making it personal again.

And that takes us back to page 12, which is I think where I first jumped into this conversation. So at least you can understand how my perception of your argument has been shaped by the 8 or 9 pages where I've been paying much attention. It's banging the gong of rim protection and not acknowledging any other element of defense, at least to my perception. And that means ignoring him being 6th in the league in deflections per game, being 4th in SPG and 3rd in total steals, right? Like, majorly useful things. Possession-changing things, more reliably so than blocks (though obviously blocks do not fully equate to rim protection, obviously).

Then there's the other stuff. He's +1.2 in D-EPM. If I'm not mistaken, his D-RAPTOR is also +1.0. There are some numbers which indicate he's far less terrible than you've been trying to portray in this thread. Not amazing, maybe not even above average overall. But certainly not as bad as your endless invective over his rim protection has implied, you know?

Tsherkin, let’s be honest…because again I’ve had this conversation with you multiple times so I’ll give you the floor and give you an opportunity to demonstrate that you want to have this argument in good faith…aside from his rim protection, what other reasons have I highlighted that make Jokic a bad defender in my opinion. Im not going to relitigate an issue with you ive talked about in depth multiple times if after all those conversations your conclusion is I think Jokic is a bad defender because he doesn’t defend the rim.

In some of the very post you went back and copy and pasted my sentiments those additional reasons have been highlighted so Idky your acting like rim protection is the only reason I think he’s a bad defender

[tsherkin]

Tsherkin, let’s be honest…because again I’ve had this conversation with you multiple times so I’ll give you the floor and give you an opportunity to demonstrate that you want to have this argument in good faith…aside from his rim protection, what other reasons have I highlighted that make Jokic a bad defender in my opinion.

From what I"ve read IIT, you've talked almost exclusively about rim protection, and with a brief mention of his defense on drives, which comes back to rim protection. Correct me if I"m wrong, I'm honestly not trying to misrepresent your argument. That's why I noted where I hopped into this thread and why I went back and quote-hunted.

Referencing other conversations isn't helpful, because I flatly don't recall them. There's too much going on in my life to recall all of our prior conversations on the subject, as I'm not Patrick Jane.

In some of the very post you went back and copy and pasted my sentiments those additional reasons have been highlighted so Idky your acting like rim protection is the only reason I think he’s a bad defender

That's all I've seen in there beside minimization of what he does well. Please, show me your thoughts outside of rim protection. I'd love to actually see more reasons.

[hardenASG13]

Well it was a surprise to ANT and Golbert. Seems like it given their surprise and reaction it is not common place like you make it out to be as you said with all players watch tape. Maybe you know more than more than them. If you do hats off you.

A good high school varsity team will know the other teams preferred plays.

Its not about preferred plays. It was a special end of quarter sideline out of bounds play. these are run very rarely and kept secret. I dont think he "knew" it, i think he read the setup.

Okay. So we're talking about Jokic, on plays that are run very rarely, can sometimes read the setup? That isn't a quality that really factors into his overall defense at all. Talk about grasping at straws.

[Alatan]

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

Defense is a team game. If your coach has a good scheme and the players buy in, you don’t need great individual defenders to have a good defense and the Nuggest have a great defensive scheme that makes up for Jokicc’s flaws.

I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up.

Great hands? You play defender with your body not your hands.

If he were Lebron you all would be crucifying him but for whatever reason Jokic gets a pass for not being a good defender

It appears to me that you base your oppinion on a few lowlight plays from the regular season where Jokic really doesnt give a damn and is playing matador defense to preserve himself.
Jokic at his best is an average to above average defender that is still a terrible rim protector but pretty good at most other things expected of a C while also bringing defensive qualaties not expected of a C.
The point is that his detractors want to paint him as a overrated one-dimensional player that lucked into success by circumstance and effort of his underrated teamates while in reality the dude carries a bunch of average guys and scrubs deep into the playoffs every season.
But it doesnt matter. Eventualy Jokic will prevail, even against the efforts of his incompetent front office to keep him surrounded by mediocrity. He is just that good.

You’re wrong. My opinion comes from watching entire games against the Knicks and more importantly glueing my eyes on him on defense during the Timberwolves series. That isn’t meaningless.

When I posted the highlights of their last Knick game l, after actually watching the game, I asked: is this a reflection on how he defends? And if it is, in my opinion he’s not a plus defender.

If hiding on Mcdaniels while MJP is forced to defend Naz Reid or Kat because Jokic either can’t defend either or can’t defend his matchup without fouling, then to me he simply is not a good defender.

The same way that despite KATs ability to defend in space defend Jokic well in the playoffs in the right scheme and rebound at an elite level his is a god awful defender

Wasnt Jokic put in early foul trouble in their last game against the Knicks? Its not really a representative sample to be honest. And Jokic surely doesnt hide on wing players. Its not the Nuggets scheme. Jokic defends his matchup if it a C and on the perimeter the Nuggets do try to switch on whoever is attacking him in isolation so he can drop back and hower around the paint where he is more usefull. Something most teams do with their centers. If you think players like Gobert or Embiid defend wings/guards on the perimeter you need to watch more NBA games. No one is saying Jokic is a great defender. He needs help and doesnt provide rim protection. But when taken everything into account his team plays better defense with him than without him, managing to have a defense good enough to win a chanpionship without any players close to an all-defensive team selection.
And its not like Jokic won a chip playing against offensive scrubs. His team has beaten Edwards, LBJ, AD, KD, Booker and Buttler. In 2020. they eliminated peak Kawhi and Mitchells Utah only to lose to the Champions.
If results say you can make good enough defense around him without superb defensive support and all the stats say he is not a bad defender then how can we still question his defensive ability?

[canada_dry]

The X player has no help is one of the dumbest things ever said for any player except Kobe Bryant in the middle '00s.
Take a look at the rosters Lakers put together back then and then compare them to the rosters of today or the rosters some of the league's best players had to work with ever since.

LeBron at his first stint with the Cavs had Ilgauskas who was a player greatly disrespected and underappreciated in here.
Nowitzki in 2011 had guys like Marion, Terry. AllStars? No but we all know that a guy like Marion in particular deserved far more recognition than the one he got.
Durant played with peak Westbrook on the Thunder.
Giannis in 2021 had Middleton who at his peak was a cold killer.
Luka last season had Kyrie who was more mature and grounded than ever.
Embiid has played with Butler and Harden among others.
Harden had Chris Paul and a greatly constructed roster on the Rockets.

I always laugh with these takes.
Things like that are being said by fanboys who want to elevate a particular player. They're not fans of the teams the X player plays for.

Murray is a proven playoffs performer and one bad run doesn't change that.
Porter Jr is way overpaid and injury prone but his skills were never in doubt.
Gordon is probably the most ideal PF to pair with Jokic.
Is Denver's FO ideal(or pretty good or whatever)?
No but that doesn't mean they're completely ****.
It's the same FO that landed the franchise it's first championship.

Your bias is showing.

Odom and caron>>>Ilgauskas.

Odom was a 19/10/5 guy in the playoffs.

Cut it out.

[michaelm]

how about a playoff run where teams game plan for him and in theory (according to u) should be able to exploit his "terrible" defense and yet the Nuggets had the 3rd best playoff defense out of the 16 playoff teams in their title run, with Jokic playing alongside defensive juggenauts like MPJ and Murray in the starting lineup?

His defense is very underrated. He has gotten himself into good shape and hustles hard. His size and length bothers anyone he is close to and his hands are outstanding which is why he is one of the league leaders in steals. His defense is definitely not a negative. It’s not Anthony Davis, but he is an overall plus and better than most starting Cs. Yeah if he gets switched onto a small guard it can be a problem, but Denver does a pretty good job making sure it doesn’t happen. He is also very high IQ and knows where he is supposed to be.

Then factor in that he’s one of the greatest offensive players ever, easy top 5 and maybe wind up at number 1 by the end of his career… well, the guy is amazing. One of the best passers ever, easily the best guy ever with his size. Fantastic post game. Fantastic shooter. Fantastic size and fantastic decision making.

The Nuggets are a losing team without him on the court. They have one of the best point differentials with him on it.

I get if someone loves Luka, guy is an incredible talent. Just pure natural basketball ability and a build to go with. But he isn’t Jokic. He’s a little bit worse at almost everything. He could be better if he took his conditioning more seriously, IMO. Having Lebron to help guide him I think will help a lot. But to somehow suggest he’s a better player than Jokic is just asinine.

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

Defense is a team game. If your coach has a good scheme and the players buy in, you don’t need great individual defenders to have a good defense and the Nuggest have a great defensive scheme that makes up for Jokicc’s flaws.

I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up.

Great hands? You play defender with your body not your hands.

If he were Lebron you all would be crucifying him but for whatever reason Jokic gets a pass for not being a good defender

As someone has already implied your last sentence suggests what the real issue is for you.

Otherwise you are pretty much saying what most people are saying, that for the title run he with the rest of the roster in the defensive scheme the Nuggets used provided good enough defence to win the title, which is what really matters, and that win was significantly based on his greatness as an offensive player. Absolutely no one is contending he is an elite rim protector.

I could see some argument for him due to bias getting less criticism than LeBron over defence but the criticism of LeBron’s defence which was highly elite as recently as in the 2020 title run was in regard to whether the offensive stats he has accumulated in recent years are meaningful in putting him above Jordan as the GOAT, both of them being great defensive players at their peaks. No one is comparing Jokic to Jordan or LeBron because he isn’t on their level defensively. I can see some case for him to be in the discussion for GOAThood as an offensive player as others have proposed though.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

My effing god, that wasn’t the freaking point

Zero Rings, emitt Jeff Green from the list of good to great defenders and than act like the rest of those players on that list are who they are.

The arguments you all are making are just pathetic. Did I say Bruce Brown anchored the defense or did I say he’s a good defender.

there is no "list"

the only players on that roster that might be considered "great defenders" (depending on what u mean by "great") were AG and KCP and in reality both are very good but certainly not "great" defenders.

Watson who played some rotation mins is the best shot-blocker and has the highest defensive ceiling but he was (and is) very young and very inconsistent and prone to many blown coverages and lapses in reading the game. he might be a great defender some day but he wasn't one in that title run

Braun was a rookie but was pretty solid too defensively, pretty good for a rookie but ya know..very far from great, he wa a serviceable defender

Bruce Brown is a good defender too

Murray and MPJ aren't good defenders, they're mediocre on a good day on that end

so by my count, they had zero "great" defenders. AG and KCP are more like in the upper 30% of defenders in their position than say, the top 10%. that's cool but it's far from "great" and yes, the Nuggets had a decent amount of good and capable defenders, AG\KCP\Brown\Watson and a couple of below avg defenders (MPJ and Murray) and one god awful defender in the corpse of Jeff Green

how does get that you a top 3 defense in the postseason if Jokic is a "terrible" defender? oh I forgot, he made an effort in the playoffs so he wasn't terrible anymore in fact he was pretty damn good. is that what ur going with now?

this year's OKC whose breaking defensive records has like 5 defenders in their 10 man rotation that are better than any defender the Nuggets had that season, trying to make it look like that Nuggets squad was filled with great defenders is laughable and is just another troll attempt to detract from Jokic's greatness

I guess he's reached that LBJ level now when some folks are just fabricating completely ridiclous arguments just to put him down

MPj was mich better than mediocre during the 23 run, though. Not great, but very clearly a positive

[DimesandKnicks]

His defense is very underrated. He has gotten himself into good shape and hustles hard. His size and length bothers anyone he is close to and his hands are outstanding which is why he is one of the league leaders in steals. His defense is definitely not a negative. It’s not Anthony Davis, but he is an overall plus and better than most starting Cs. Yeah if he gets switched onto a small guard it can be a problem, but Denver does a pretty good job making sure it doesn’t happen. He is also very high IQ and knows where he is supposed to be.

Then factor in that he’s one of the greatest offensive players ever, easy top 5 and maybe wind up at number 1 by the end of his career… well, the guy is amazing. One of the best passers ever, easily the best guy ever with his size. Fantastic post game. Fantastic shooter. Fantastic size and fantastic decision making.

The Nuggets are a losing team without him on the court. They have one of the best point differentials with him on it.

I get if someone loves Luka, guy is an incredible talent. Just pure natural basketball ability and a build to go with. But he isn’t Jokic. He’s a little bit worse at almost everything. He could be better if he took his conditioning more seriously, IMO. Having Lebron to help guide him I think will help a lot. But to somehow suggest he’s a better player than Jokic is just asinine.

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

Defense is a team game. If your coach has a good scheme and the players buy in, you don’t need great individual defenders to have a good defense and the Nuggest have a great defensive scheme that makes up for Jokicc’s flaws.

I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up.

Great hands? You play defender with your body not your hands.

If he were Lebron you all would be crucifying him but for whatever reason Jokic gets a pass for not being a good defender

As someone has already implied your last sentence suggests what the real issue is for you.

Otherwise you are pretty much saying what most people are saying, that for the title run the rest of the roster and the defensive scheme provided good enough defence to win the title, which is what really matters, and that win was significantly based on his greatness as an offensive player. Absolutely no one is contending he is an elite rim protector.

I could see some argument for him getting less criticism than LeBron over defence but the criticism of LeBron’s defence which was highly elite as recently as in the 2020 title run was in regard to whether the offensive stats he has accumulated in recent years are meaningful in putting him above Jordan as the GOAt, both of them being great defensive players at their peaks. No one is comparing Jokic to Jordan or LeBron because he isn’t on their level defensively. I can see some case for him to be in the discussion for GOAThood as an offensive player as others have proposed though.

U must be new here, they certainly are

[Ryoga Hibiki]

At of all the ATG players Jokic is the worst defender outside of maybe Magic who at least has utility as an oversized guard who could defend PF. He is a great player…we are simply highlighting his flaws just as we would with any other player.

Where not disrespecting him by saying he isn’t good at what he isn’t good at. We simply stating an objective truth while others want to create some abstract standard that fit a narrative that his flaws aren’t his flaws.

Right? Jokic has 3 MVPs, with minimal quality playoff series wins, he's gonna get nitpicked. He should have a shot to take down some major teams this year and will need to to enter any GOAT talks. People say hes having the GOAT peak because of stats? Then beat an OKC and/or Boston (or a 2024 Minnesota).

People saying he’s having a GOAT peak, which I don’t necessarily disagree with, are ignoring that defense is half of the game and wins championships

Nico, is that you?

[DimesandKnicks]

It appears to me that you base your oppinion on a few lowlight plays from the regular season where Jokic really doesnt give a damn and is playing matador defense to preserve himself.
Jokic at his best is an average to above average defender that is still a terrible rim protector but pretty good at most other things expected of a C while also bringing defensive qualaties not expected of a C.
The point is that his detractors want to paint him as a overrated one-dimensional player that lucked into success by circumstance and effort of his underrated teamates while in reality the dude carries a bunch of average guys and scrubs deep into the playoffs every season.
But it doesnt matter. Eventualy Jokic will prevail, even against the efforts of his incompetent front office to keep him surrounded by mediocrity. He is just that good.

You’re wrong. My opinion comes from watching entire games against the Knicks and more importantly glueing my eyes on him on defense during the Timberwolves series. That isn’t meaningless.

When I posted the highlights of their last Knick game l, after actually watching the game, I asked: is this a reflection on how he defends? And if it is, in my opinion he’s not a plus defender.

If hiding on Mcdaniels while MJP is forced to defend Naz Reid or Kat because Jokic either can’t defend either or can’t defend his matchup without fouling, then to me he simply is not a good defender.

The same way that despite KATs ability to defend in space defend Jokic well in the playoffs in the right scheme and rebound at an elite level his is a god awful defender

Wasnt Jokic put in early foul trouble in their last game against the Knicks? Its not really a representative sample to be honest. And Jokic surely doesnt hide on wing players. Its not the Nuggets scheme. Jokic defends his matchup if it a C and on the perimeter the Nuggets do try to switch on whoever is attacking him in isolation so he can drop back and hower around the paint where he is more usefull. Something most teams do with their centers. If you think players like Gobert or Embiid defend wings/guards on the perimeter you need to watch more NBA games. No one is saying Jokic is a great defender. He needs help and doesnt provide rim protection. But when taken everything into account his team plays better defense with him than without him, managing to have a defense good enough to win a chanpionship without any players close to an all-defensive team selection.
And its not like Jokic won a chip playing against offensive scrubs. His team has beaten Edwards, LBJ, AD, KD, Booker and Buttler. In 2020. they eliminated peak Kawhi and Mitchells Utah only to lose to the Champions.
If results say you can make good enough defense around him without superb defensive support and all the stats say he is not a bad defender then how can we still question his defensive ability?

Jokic got two fouls and played the rest of the second half and was an absolute turnstile on defense.

During the Wolves series, I’m sure he defended Gobert but when the Wolves put Reid and Kat he guarded McDaniels. Doing that so he could roam would make sense if he wasn’t an awful rim defender. Kat and Reid would have toasted him.

Gobert is absolutely trash at defending on the perimeter an he was absolutely crucified the last few years for being nearly unplayable on defense despite being an elite rim protected and rebounder. Jokic can get the same criticism for his defensive inefficiencies.

[AleksandarN]

Why conveniently leave out the fact that during that playoff run he also had KCP, AG, Bruce Brown and Jeff Green?

And during that run Jokic actually “tried” and held players to like 59 percent at the rim and committed three and a half fouls per game. Did he do a good job defending without fouling than or does the small sample size suggesting he’s a good defender only applicable when observing what he’s good at. Is he bad at defending without fouling because he had one playoff run when he defended with more effort and earned a bunch of fouls? The bias and lack of objectivity is just weird.

Defense is a team game. If your coach has a good scheme and the players buy in, you don’t need great individual defenders to have a good defense and the Nuggest have a great defensive scheme that makes up for Jokicc’s flaws.

I’m not saying Jokic isn’t capable of defending…I’m saying he simply doesn’t and it’s evident when you watch him watch defenders make layups on him with out even putting his hands up.

Great hands? You play defender with your body not your hands.

If he were Lebron you all would be crucifying him but for whatever reason Jokic gets a pass for not being a good defender

As someone has already implied your last sentence suggests what the real issue is for you.

Otherwise you are pretty much saying what most people are saying, that for the title run the rest of the roster and the defensive scheme provided good enough defence to win the title, which is what really matters, and that win was significantly based on his greatness as an offensive player. Absolutely no one is contending he is an elite rim protector.

I could see some argument for him getting less criticism than LeBron over defence but the criticism of LeBron’s defence which was highly elite as recently as in the 2020 title run was in regard to whether the offensive stats he has accumulated in recent years are meaningful in putting him above Jordan as the GOAt, both of them being great defensive players at their peaks. No one is comparing Jokic to Jordan or LeBron because he isn’t on their level defensively. I can see some case for him to be in the discussion for GOAThood as an offensive player as others have proposed though.

U must be new here, they certainly are

Coming from a guy who watched 2 full Knick games and Twolves series. Lol ok bud. Hilarious considering you called out another poster for using a small sample size yet you based it even a smaller sample size.

[KGtabake]

The X player has no help is one of the dumbest things ever said for any player except Kobe Bryant in the middle '00s.
Take a look at the rosters Lakers put together back then and then compare them to the rosters of today or the rosters some of the league's best players had to work with ever since.

LeBron at his first stint with the Cavs had Ilgauskas who was a player greatly disrespected and underappreciated in here.
Nowitzki in 2011 had guys like Marion, Terry. AllStars? No but we all know that a guy like Marion in particular deserved far more recognition than the one he got.
Durant played with peak Westbrook on the Thunder.
Giannis in 2021 had Middleton who at his peak was a cold killer.
Luka last season had Kyrie who was more mature and grounded than ever.
Embiid has played with Butler and Harden among others.
Harden had Chris Paul and a greatly constructed roster on the Rockets.

I always laugh with these takes.
Things like that are being said by fanboys who want to elevate a particular player. They're not fans of the teams the X player plays for.

Murray is a proven playoffs performer and one bad run doesn't change that.
Porter Jr is way overpaid and injury prone but his skills were never in doubt.
Gordon is probably the most ideal PF to pair with Jokic.
Is Denver's FO ideal(or pretty good or whatever)?
No but that doesn't mean they're completely ****.
It's the same FO that landed the franchise it's first championship.

Your bias is showing.

Odom and caron>>>Ilgauskas.

Odom was a 19/10/5 guy in the playoffs.

Cut it out.

Ilgauskas was an all star, Odom was not.
Go to sleep.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I think the crux of your problem is that you can't move beyond the idea that his rim protection isn't the full measure of his utility on defense.

Then you’re ignoring every flaw I highlighted outside of his rim protection across multiple threads on the subject and it’s just strange that despite you being one of the main ppl I engage with on the subject that you’re acting like that’s the crux of my argument

Most of what I see you posting in this thread has been about rim protection while ignoring every other available piece of evidence regarding his defense, though. And about how defense operates. And then personal attacks against other posters when you get frustrated.

moreover, even his evaluation of his rim protection is very simplistic.
First of all, the allowed FG% does not include fouling. It can change the results quite significantly (JJJ's rim protection in his DPOY year was very overrated)
Second, it doesn't include defensive rebounding. There's a trade off in going for block, you can be out of position to secure the rebound in case of miss.
Third, this is an average over the season, and Jokic absolutely coasts during the RS. That's not the actual value he can provide when locked in and not as worried about fouling.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

You’re wrong. My opinion comes from watching entire games against the Knicks and more importantly glueing my eyes on him on defense during the Timberwolves series. That isn’t meaningless.

When I posted the highlights of their last Knick game l, after actually watching the game, I asked: is this a reflection on how he defends? And if it is, in my opinion he’s not a plus defender.

If hiding on Mcdaniels while MJP is forced to defend Naz Reid or Kat because Jokic either can’t defend either or can’t defend his matchup without fouling, then to me he simply is not a good defender.

The same way that despite KATs ability to defend in space defend Jokic well in the playoffs in the right scheme and rebound at an elite level his is a god awful defender

Wasnt Jokic put in early foul trouble in their last game against the Knicks? Its not really a representative sample to be honest. And Jokic surely doesnt hide on wing players. Its not the Nuggets scheme. Jokic defends his matchup if it a C and on the perimeter the Nuggets do try to switch on whoever is attacking him in isolation so he can drop back and hower around the paint where he is more usefull. Something most teams do with their centers. If you think players like Gobert or Embiid defend wings/guards on the perimeter you need to watch more NBA games. No one is saying Jokic is a great defender. He needs help and doesnt provide rim protection. But when taken everything into account his team plays better defense with him than without him, managing to have a defense good enough to win a chanpionship without any players close to an all-defensive team selection.
And its not like Jokic won a chip playing against offensive scrubs. His team has beaten Edwards, LBJ, AD, KD, Booker and Buttler. In 2020. they eliminated peak Kawhi and Mitchells Utah only to lose to the Champions.
If results say you can make good enough defense around him without superb defensive support and all the stats say he is not a bad defender then how can we still question his defensive ability?

Jokic got two fouls and played the rest of the second half and was an absolute turnstile on defense.

During the Wolves series, I’m sure he defended Gobert but when the Wolves put Reid and Kat he guarded McDaniels. Doing that so he could roam would make sense if he wasn’t an awful rim defender. Kat and Reid would have toasted him.

Gobert is absolutely trash at defending on the perimeter an he was absolutely crucified the last few years for being nearly unplayable on defense despite being an elite rim protected and rebounder. Jokic can get the same criticism for his defensive inefficiencies.

Gobert is a very good perimeter defender, actually, considering he's a rim protector. This thing of him being unplayable of defense has been an absolute ignorant BS, since the beginning.

[falcolombardi]

The X player has no help is one of the dumbest things ever said for any player except Kobe Bryant in the middle '00s.
Take a look at the rosters Lakers put together back then and then compare them to the rosters of today or the rosters some of the league's best players had to work with ever since.

LeBron at his first stint with the Cavs had Ilgauskas who was a player greatly disrespected and underappreciated in here.
Nowitzki in 2011 had guys like Marion, Terry. AllStars? No but we all know that a guy like Marion in particular deserved far more recognition than the one he got.
Durant played with peak Westbrook on the Thunder.
Giannis in 2021 had Middleton who at his peak was a cold killer.
Luka last season had Kyrie who was more mature and grounded than ever.
Embiid has played with Butler and Harden among others.
Harden had Chris Paul and a greatly constructed roster on the Rockets.

I always laugh with these takes.
Things like that are being said by fanboys who want to elevate a particular player. They're not fans of the teams the X player plays for.

Murray is a proven playoffs performer and one bad run doesn't change that.
Porter Jr is way overpaid and injury prone but his skills were never in doubt.
Gordon is probably the most ideal PF to pair with Jokic.
Is Denver's FO ideal(or pretty good or whatever)?
No but that doesn't mean they're completely ****.
It's the same FO that landed the franchise it's first championship.

Your bias is showing.

Odom and caron>>>Ilgauskas.

Odom was a 19/10/5 guy in the playoffs.

Cut it out.

Ilgauskas was an all star, Odom was not.
Go to sleep.

So your view of players only goes as far (in conferences of difference strenght mind you) as media votes go? What happened to having own opinions