Game Thread: New York KNICKS at Cleveland Cavaliers Fri, Feb 21, 2025 7:00pm ESPN

[3toheadmelo]

Brother, you lost on September 27th, 2024, you're going through your Ye tweeting era right now. The option to play KAT at the 4 or 5 is what makes him so great, unlike players we had in the past. Playing him next to some unskilled oaf is pointless.


The end of Walt's chapter, fitting gif you used, I will pray for you.

Nah you can’t back pedal out of this. Our arguments about KAT was about him holding back our team defensively at the 5. Not about the 4. You just admitted it we need another C after being in denial about it for months. I won.

You said he was Bargnani and he was an all star starter and then you said the team would suck and it’s the best team we’ve had since the y2k virus

Also he’s a +326 which is the highest plus minus on the team

He defends like Bargnani at the 5



And no, we’re 0-5 against OKC, Cleveland and Boston. I’ve seen better Knicks teams.

[Chanel Bomber]

Read on Twitter

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Offseason should be about trying to get another C that can play with KAT that can also make the three. Forget the rim runners, pair two bigs together that can hit the three.

This was some of our biggest concerns with playing 5out with kat. I'll freely admit that I vastly underestimated his ability to get buckets. But the biggest concern some of us skeptics(critics) had are looking real. He is absolutely terrible as a rim protector.

I still question if we used him better on offense and switched more than playing him drop if we could be more successful. And that we would run teams out of the gym. So it would make up for his poor defense.

Idk it also doesn't help that he is out there shuffling like he is walking around a retirement home.

You don't necessarily need a rim protector to build a solid defense.

The Nuggets ranked 15th in defense the year they won the championship (the Knicks this year rank 17th).

Jokic is actually a solid defender overall (better than KAT) but he's a rim protector like 3tohead is a herbivore.

With an effective scheme, and solid personnel around KAT, we can have a solid defense. I just don't think Mikal and Hart have provided enough there, but I don't think we're far from where we should be defensively.

Having KAT at the 5 is such a comparative advantage - I think it would be self-defeating to bring in a traditional rim protector (unless they shot the 3). His defense hasn't even been that bad.

[Guano]

Offseason should be about trying to get another C that can play with KAT that can also make the three. Forget the rim runners, pair two bigs together that can hit the three.

This was some of our biggest concerns with playing 5out with kat. I'll freely admit that I vastly underestimated his ability to get buckets. But the biggest concern some of us skeptics(critics) had are looking real. He is absolutely terrible as a rim protector.

I still question if we used him better on offense and switched more than playing him drop if we could be more successful. And that we would run teams out of the gym. So it would make up for his poor defense.

Idk it also doesn't help that he is out there shuffling like he is walking around a retirement home.

The only time KAT’s teams were ever successful was when he was at the 4 next to a big that can defend. If we commit to playing him at the 4 next to someone like Huk, I think we would be a much better team. I too underestimated KAT’s ability to get buckets, but he is really a cone out there man.

It was the bulls and a small sample size so I'm not trying to read to much into huks play last night. Buuuuuuuuut on the flip side kat was getting worked and has been by other teams.

Our offense has to be generational to make up for our defense. And I just don't know if that's sustainable through a playoff run. They have to be better defensively to be a true contenders. If that means moving kat to the 5 or stop switching idk.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

This was some of our biggest concerns with playing 5out with kat. I'll freely admit that I vastly underestimated his ability to get buckets. But the biggest concern some of us skeptics(critics) had are looking real. He is absolutely terrible as a rim protector.

I still question if we used him better on offense and switched more than playing him drop if we could be more successful. And that we would run teams out of the gym. So it would make up for his poor defense.

Idk it also doesn't help that he is out there shuffling like he is walking around a retirement home.

He could be used a lot better on both sides of the ball, the way we use him is basically just leaving it up to his talent on offense, and they hang him out to dry on defense.

Playing two bigs where 1 is offensive and the other is defensive is no different from what the Cavs do, and ultimately that will be their downfall because 1 of them is going to be a liability on offense. The Thunder have two bigs, but they use them together on a team by team basis. Unfortunately, the only team in the NBA that has two bigs that can defend and shoot are the Celtics with Horford. If you're going to commit to 2 bigs it has to be unique, they both have to be ableo stretch the floor, otherwise a team with big wings will eventually be able to keep one of them in check.

We need the option, and a coach that would do it on a game to game basis, the Raptors did that in 2019. Sometimes Gasol and Ibaka would start together, other times it was Siakam next to Gasol, and in other instances against mobile teams they went with Siakam and Ibaka with Marc off the bench.

I completely agree with your first point. He isn't being used correctly. He has to work really hard for his buckets. He should be set up more often. To that it's disappointing that him and Brunson don't have better chemistry on the offensive end. They basically just take turns cooking. Was actually nice seeing em run a lil 2 man action last night. Set up kat for some easy buckets.

As for defense seems like getting a 2nd big who could pop and and provide rim protection would be ideal but we're broke af and those are rare expensive breeds.

Have we ever had an offense that wasn't just guys taking turns? This will continue to be said, look at the Cavs before and after JB Thibberstaff, how they moved Mitchell off the ball to give more touches to everyone else. We can dance around this all we want, but the offense is strictly based on talent and not continuity. Brunson takes the blame, but he's only doing what the coach lets him do, which is whatever he wants.


2 bigs only makes sense when they both have some offense, teams know how to deal with the offense/defense model of bigs, because the more limited offensive one will be near the rim.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Nah you can’t back pedal out of this. Our arguments about KAT was about him holding back our team defensively at the 5. Not about the 4. You just admitted it we need another C after being in denial about it for months. I won.

You said he was Bargnani and he was an all star starter and then you said the team would suck and it’s the best team we’ve had since the y2k virus

Also he’s a +326 which is the highest plus minus on the team

He defends like Bargnani at the 5



And no, we’re 0-5 against OKC, Cleveland and Boston. I’ve seen better Knicks teams.

[Guano]

Offseason should be about trying to get another C that can play with KAT that can also make the three. Forget the rim runners, pair two bigs together that can hit the three.

This was some of our biggest concerns with playing 5out with kat. I'll freely admit that I vastly underestimated his ability to get buckets. But the biggest concern some of us skeptics(critics) had are looking real. He is absolutely terrible as a rim protector.

I still question if we used him better on offense and switched more than playing him drop if we could be more successful. And that we would run teams out of the gym. So it would make up for his poor defense.

Idk it also doesn't help that he is out there shuffling like he is walking around a retirement home.

You don't necessarily need a rim protector to build a solid defense.

The Nuggets ranked 15th in defense the year they won the championship (the Knicks this year rank 17th).

Jokic is actually a solid defender overall (better than KAT) but he's a rim protector like 3tohead is a herbivore.

With an effective scheme, and solid personnel around KAT, we can have a solid defense. I just don't think Mikal and Hart have provided enough there, but I don't think we're far from where we should be defensively.

Having KAT at the 5 is such a comparative advantage - I think it would be self-defeating to bring in a traditional rim protector (unless they shot the 3). His defense hasn't even been that bad.

Sensational post.

Taking a shot at meLo's diet, blaming mikal, all while providing a nuanced comparison backed by stats. That's legendary efficency.

[bballoctober]

OG is questionable, Josh and Mitch are out according to Ian Begley.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

We are 35-15 with KAT starting at C, we are 2-3 when he doesn't play.

[Guano]

He could be used a lot better on both sides of the ball, the way we use him is basically just leaving it up to his talent on offense, and they hang him out to dry on defense.

Playing two bigs where 1 is offensive and the other is defensive is no different from what the Cavs do, and ultimately that will be their downfall because 1 of them is going to be a liability on offense. The Thunder have two bigs, but they use them together on a team by team basis. Unfortunately, the only team in the NBA that has two bigs that can defend and shoot are the Celtics with Horford. If you're going to commit to 2 bigs it has to be unique, they both have to be ableo stretch the floor, otherwise a team with big wings will eventually be able to keep one of them in check.

We need the option, and a coach that would do it on a game to game basis, the Raptors did that in 2019. Sometimes Gasol and Ibaka would start together, other times it was Siakam next to Gasol, and in other instances against mobile teams they went with Siakam and Ibaka with Marc off the bench.

I completely agree with your first point. He isn't being used correctly. He has to work really hard for his buckets. He should be set up more often. To that it's disappointing that him and Brunson don't have better chemistry on the offensive end. They basically just take turns cooking. Was actually nice seeing em run a lil 2 man action last night. Set up kat for some easy buckets.

As for defense seems like getting a 2nd big who could pop and and provide rim protection would be ideal but we're broke af and those are rare expensive breeds.

Have we ever had an offense that wasn't just guys taking turns? This will continue to be said, look at the Cavs before and after JB Thibberstaff, how they moved Mitchell off the ball to give more touches to everyone else. We can dance around this all we want, but the offense is strictly based on talent and not continuity. Brunson takes the blame, but he's only doing what the coach lets him do, which is whatever he wants.


2 bigs only makes sense when they both have some offense, teams know how to deal with the offense/defense model of bigs, because the more limited offensive one will be near the rim.

This sht is funny and also sucks cause it's our current life.

Read on Twitter

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I completely agree with your first point. He isn't being used correctly. He has to work really hard for his buckets. He should be set up more often. To that it's disappointing that him and Brunson don't have better chemistry on the offensive end. They basically just take turns cooking. Was actually nice seeing em run a lil 2 man action last night. Set up kat for some easy buckets.

As for defense seems like getting a 2nd big who could pop and and provide rim protection would be ideal but we're broke af and those are rare expensive breeds.

Have we ever had an offense that wasn't just guys taking turns? This will continue to be said, look at the Cavs before and after JB Thibberstaff, how they moved Mitchell off the ball to give more touches to everyone else. We can dance around this all we want, but the offense is strictly based on talent and not continuity. Brunson takes the blame, but he's only doing what the coach lets him do, which is whatever he wants.


2 bigs only makes sense when they both have some offense, teams know how to deal with the offense/defense model of bigs, because the more limited offensive one will be near the rim.

This sht is funny and also sucks cause it's our current life.

Read on Twitter

I hate it here.

[Guano]

Have we ever had an offense that wasn't just guys taking turns? This will continue to be said, look at the Cavs before and after JB Thibberstaff, how they moved Mitchell off the ball to give more touches to everyone else. We can dance around this all we want, but the offense is strictly based on talent and not continuity. Brunson takes the blame, but he's only doing what the coach lets him do, which is whatever he wants.


2 bigs only makes sense when they both have some offense, teams know how to deal with the offense/defense model of bigs, because the more limited offensive one will be near the rim.

This sht is funny and also sucks cause it's our current life.

Read on Twitter

I hate it here.

It's the "in the game you can shoot anytime you can run anything" that makes me sick

[Jeffrey]

Can I post this on the Cavs forum if I say “I come in peace” first?

Watch on YouTube

Yes Wingo, you can post that on the Cavs forum if you say "I come in peace" first

Is this almost like saying "no homo" but then makes out with another guy?

[Chanel Bomber]

The Knicks have their best record after 55 games since 1996-97.

They have the 4th best record in the league. They have 5th best net rating in the NBA. They just had two All-Star starters. Have they reached their final form? No, but they're easily one of the best teams in the league.

And all of this in huge part thanks to KAT, who has been our best player this season.

This talk of moving him to the 4, or needing to compensate for him, is out of touch with reality. KAT at the 5 is clearly working for us. It's not conventional, but the last few years have shown that you don't need a rim protector to win big.

KAT's defense hasn't been good but it hasn't been that bad either - nowhere near Bargnani or Amar'e. What we need is our team defense to improve slightly. And while I don't expect much better from KAT, I think there is room for improvement with Bridges and Hart (even OG to a lesser degree). If they are able to step up their defense, I think it would be enough to propel the Knicks' defense into "good enough to contend" territory.

[KnixinSix]

The Knicks have their best record after 55 games since 1996-97.

They have the 4th best record in the league. They have 5th best net rating in the NBA. They just had two All-Star starters. Have they reached their final form? No, but they're easily one of the best teams in the league.

And all of this in huge part thanks to KAT, who has been our best player this season.

This talk of moving him to the 4, or needing to compensate for him, is out of touch with reality. KAT at the 5 is clearly working for us. It's not conventional, but the last few years have shown that you don't need a rim protector to win big.

KAT's defense hasn't been good but it hasn't been that bad either - nowhere near Bargnani or Amar'e. What we need is our team defense to improve slightly. And while I don't expect much better from KAT, I think there is room for improvement with Bridges and Hart (even OG to a lesser degree). If they are able to step up their defense, I think it would be enough to propel the Knicks' defense into "good enough to contend" territory.

Something like this....

Rotation (minutes):

C KAT(24),Robinson(16), Huk (8)
PF OG(30), Precious (10),KAT(8)
SF Bridges (33), OG(3), Hart(12)
SG Hart(22), McBride(18), Shamet (8)
PG Brunson (33), Payne (15)

*Mitch/ Huk's back up KAT and get 22+ minutes at the 5 providing higher level rim protection at strategic times in the game.

*KAT still plays 3/4 of the game at the 5 with a few at the 4 in a twin Tower lineup.

[TheGreenArrow]

Read on Twitter

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[HarthorneWingo]

Can I post this on the Cavs forum if I say “I come in peace” first?

Watch on YouTube

Yes Wingo, you can post that on the Cavs forum if you say "I come in peace" first

Is this almost like saying "no homo" but then makes out with another guy?

[Buttah304]

Never forget Minnesota was 6-3 on November 8th, just truly an elite championship caliber run that should be talked about more as it nearly transcended time itself. And how can we forget about the apparently horrific Denver Nuggets who were 16-13 on December 27th. I heard they are #2 in the Western Conference at 37-19 but I’ll have to triple check my eyes.

[thebuzzardman]

Let's see. Last two Knick wins they needed OT to eke out back to back wins against the mighty Hawks and Bulls.

Yeah, this will be a huge loss.

I HATE the Cavs, but:

Cavs 130
Knicks 105

Just 25 pts? Either you are underestimating the Cavs or overestimating the Knicks.

OG and Hart out? You're right.

Cavs 145
Knicks 99

[thebuzzardman]

I'm not gonna lie, this is going to be a tough win to get on a back to back OT win. On one hand if we win, we can shut the haters up about how we can never beat the best teams in the east like the Cavs and Celtics. On the other hand, if we lose that narrative just gets amplified.

The reality should be the Knicks are missing two players from it's starting lineup and are playing the 2nd game of a back to back, after traveling, with the game on the road.

Knicks are going to lose and lose ugly, but it proves absolutely nothing either way.

Of course, the usual trolls on this forum will make it about something, and of course the national and local media will conduct their usual completely full of sh*t takes, but I've abandoned listening or reading 99% of those people for well over 15 years.

It's one of the reasons I participated in forums. At first. The fact that the takes were way more well informed.

Last few years I enjoy contributing to the cesspool of bad takes way more.

[thebuzzardman]

So shocking that OG wasn't available after the all star break.

And now for one of the main reasons forums exist: I told you so.