2024-2025 Regular Season Game 60: Cleveland Cavaliers (47-10) at Orlando Magic (29-30) - 7:30pm

[Bensational]

Paolo should be looking to pass more but I’m getting a sense of frustration that his passes are leading to wide open bricks.

It’s mostly just KCP and WCJ who are bricking on wide open looks from Paolo - so much so that now KCP is driving into midrange shots for higher accuracy (57% from 2 vs 23% from 3). WCJ is shooting 11% from 3 off passes from Paolo and taking 1 a game.

We can and should be mad that they’re missing those shots, but there also needs to be changes to get them better shots from better places. WCJ is shooting 70% on 2pt FGAs off passes from Paolo but again only taking 1 a game.

For all the attention Paolo draws, he’s just not finding the angles to get the ball out to an inevitability open guy in a good spot. Coaches need to show him where those spots are and make sure guys are in their best positions to receive that. But when watching the players it looks like most of the time they have no idea how to read and react to what Paolo is doing so they just try to get out of the way.

23% and 11% is WILD.

I added an edit after you quoted me:

*edit - also, he’s in a glass house when it comes to missing open looks. He needs to finish all those fast breaks and sitters at the rim, [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631094/shots-dash]plus shooting better than 29% on his open and wide open looks from 3.

[thelead]

It’s mostly just KCP and WCJ who are bricking on wide open looks from Paolo - so much so that now KCP is driving into midrange shots for higher accuracy (57% from 2 vs 23% from 3). WCJ is shooting 11% from 3 off passes from Paolo and taking 1 a game.

We can and should be mad that they’re missing those shots, but there also needs to be changes to get them better shots from better places. WCJ is shooting 70% on 2pt FGAs off passes from Paolo but again only taking 1 a game.

For all the attention Paolo draws, he’s just not finding the angles to get the ball out to an inevitability open guy in a good spot. Coaches need to show him where those spots are and make sure guys are in their best positions to receive that. But when watching the players it looks like most of the time they have no idea how to read and react to what Paolo is doing so they just try to get out of the way.

23% and 11% is WILD.

I added an edit after you quoted me:

*edit - also, he’s in a glass house when it comes to missing open looks. He needs to finish all those fast breaks and sitters at the rim, [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631094/shots-dash]plus shooting better than 29% on his open and wide open looks from 3.

Yeah, I posted this stat in another thread:
The Orlando Magic are shooting 28.9 percent from downtown in their last 20 games

Just unbelievable. I bet there are many high school teams that shoot better collectively.

[basketballRob]

23% and 11% is WILD.

I added an edit after you quoted me:

*edit - also, he’s in a glass house when it comes to missing open looks. He needs to finish all those fast breaks and sitters at the rim, plus shooting better than 29% on his open and wide open looks from 3.

Yeah, I posted this stat in another thread:
The Orlando Magic are shooting 28.9 percent from downtown in their last 20 games

Just unbelievable. I bet there are many high school teams that shoot better collectively.

Paolo is at 29% and Franz is at 31%.

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[yoyojw17]

My point is more about needing the chill out and remember what the team has had to go through this season.

My biggest frustration right now is that the team looked better when they were going through it compared to now that they’re closer to full strength. The ball moved more, there was more chance of a random player getting hot and having a big scoring night, and the defense was committed and high end.

My second biggest frustration is that I have a belief that star players are supposed to make the guys around them look better as much as the guys around them are there to compliment them. Franz is doing that, and without adding to the Paolo bonfire, he isn’t right now.

One of Atkinson’s big talking points in his post game presser last night was how Mitchell has embraced being a floor general and getting his guys involved and easy looks. We all know Paolo said he didn’t want that responsibility but we’re past the trade deadline now so he has to accept and embrace that it’s up to him and Franz to carry that load this season.

this was stated by the commentators as well.... and i immediately thought of paolo. BUT.... though they have talent.... the same way that Donovan learned this.... so will paolo and franz. Agreed.... ball movement is key. Though we KNOW you can make the shot... doesn't mean you have to take it. And as one of the most double teamed players .... and triple teamed even... this should be a skill that paolo should want to explore to the fullest. And to be honest... when you know you're not just a "break in case of emergency option" or Option Z.... players will move more to open spots...be active.... be prepared... and be confident. Not just taking photos from the 3 point line and then finding the ball coming to you and since you've barely touched the ball.... "It's my turn to shine" and throw it up in haste.

needless to say.... this IS still part of the learning process. We have too many high IQ players on the team that 60% to 100% of all players on the court should touch the ball on most possessions. the ball should be moving and so should the bodies.

That's where i see the next step for this team... even as it is currently constructed. and though we are nearly at the end of the season.... this is still like the beginning of the season for the most part as these players are still getting accustomed to playing with one another again. Just gotta get it together and hit a stride by playoff time.

[eyriq]

Franz is already the best SF in the league. True or false?

[ogmagicfan]

None of how this game went down surprises me at all

The FO needs to go, its a ****. The only thing crazier to me than the FO was the fans drinking the koolaid even when none of it made sense.

We needed to clearly upgrade our guards after Paolo's rookie season. Paolo & Franz looked ready to take a next step (which they did) the following season. Instead we sit pat because "we want to give Fultz a chance".

So we dont sign FVV who was a perfect fit, Fultz SURPRISINGLY doesnt show he got what it takes to be a starting PG after 7 seasons in the NBA, and we're left with no PGs to sign but cap space we have to use. So we sign KCP, which didnt really help any weakness.

The reality is, and potentially its coming from Ownership, they didnt want to spend more and used the narrative of "family" and "internal improvement". Either that or Weltham wanted to sit on his hands so he could justify staying in his position longer without doing anything

Either way, I really wont blame Paolo or Franz for wanting out as long as we have this FO. Ownership is a problem too and you can be sure Mike Miller who already is knowledgable from his time on the Magic has let Paolo know how things roll with our Ownership

I think Weltham might step down this offseason and have Parker clean up the mess.

[ogmagicfan]

I've been a Wizards fan for some time as well since I'm local, and the effects that a poor FO & Ownership has on the ability for a team to contend for a chip is so heavy. It ruins the ability for a team to attract players in FA or trades because they know theyll be stuck in no mans land

The Magic are trending directly into those waters. Maybe that's the reason why Paolo didnt work out with us before the draft, because Mike Miller dodnt like the Magic franchise

Whatever the reason, our reputation is in the gutter, and all the "we have time to sit on our hands and see what happens" folks are gonna follow that ideology to us being a team with nobodies again

[KillMonger]

Franz is already the best SF in the league. True or false?

He's definitely up there, one thing though for sure Franz does not get enough credit for how he's defending.... I would definitely put him over a 40 year old LeBron for instance

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[thelead]

Franz is already the best SF in the league. True or false?

False. He's not even better than 40 year old LeBron. Top 5 though? Likely.

[mattyBoi]

We're about two or so years away from the Paolo trade request.

[VFX]

I find it comical that people think the team needs to be at 100% full health to gauge whether or not the roster makes sense. You make it seem like Paolo and Franz didn’t play 35 minutes and got blown out.

It’s just such a disingenuous argument to be honest. We are talking about guys that are 100% going to be on the team for the foreseeable future for MAX money. Not some arbitrary player off the bench for 12mpg. Orlando didn’t lose this game by 40 points because Moe Wagner wasn’t healthy.

Tired of the homer rhetoric telling everyone to pump the brakes when the building is on fire and there are no answers. A lot of you are the reason this ownership and management have gotten away with murder by wasting everyone’s time with complacency.

[eyriq]

I find it comical that people think the team needs to be at 100% full health to gauge whether or not the roster makes sense. You make it seem like Paolo and Franz didn’t play 35 minutes and got blown out.

It’s just such a disingenuous argument to be honest. We are talking about guys that are 100% going to be on the team for the foreseeable future for MAX money. Not some arbitrary player off the bench for 12mpg. Orlando didn’t lose this game by 40 points because Moe Wagner wasn’t healthy.

Tired of the homer rhetoric telling everyone to pump the brakes when the building is on fire and there are no answers. A lot of you are the reason this ownership and management have gotten away with murder by wasting everyone’s time with complacency.

You either think we've landed on two 6'10 all-star wings and love this core or you don't. No need to make it any more complicated than that.

The only downside I see is if Suggs is injury prone. Given we've locked up >15% of our cap on him he could really hold us back.

The rest is inconsequential. WCJ and JI are movable, AB, Jett, and TDS are rookie scale contracts for several more seasons, and KCP is a solid veteran in the first year of a three year deal.

The cap sheet is healthy minus Suggs salary, the core of Paolo and Franz is a perfect match, and we are armed with draft equity to make any re-tooling moves required.

Maybe Suggs gets healthy and gets back to contributing? All the better.

[BadMofoPimp]

I find it comical that people think the team needs to be at 100% full health to gauge whether or not the roster makes sense. You make it seem like Paolo and Franz didn’t play 35 minutes and got blown out.

It’s just such a disingenuous argument to be honest. We are talking about guys that are 100% going to be on the team for the foreseeable future for MAX money. Not some arbitrary player off the bench for 12mpg. Orlando didn’t lose this game by 40 points because Moe Wagner wasn’t healthy.

Tired of the homer rhetoric telling everyone to pump the brakes when the building is on fire and there are no answers. A lot of you are the reason this ownership and management have gotten away with murder by wasting everyone’s time with complacency.

You either think we've landed on two 6'10 all-star wings and love this core or you don't. No need to make it any more complicated than that.

The only downside I see is if Suggs is injury prone. Given we've locked up >15% of our cap on him he could really hold us back.

The rest is inconsequential. WCJ and JI are movable, AB, Jett, and TDS are rookie scale contracts for several more seasons, and KCP is a solid veteran in the first year of a three year deal.

The cap sheet is healthy minus Suggs salary, the core of Paolo and Franz is a perfect match, and we are armed with draft equity to make any re-tooling moves required.

Maybe Suggs gets healthy and gets back to contributing? All the better.

Magic WILL provem all wrong!!! This team is being built for the future, not just for today.

[KillMonger]

I find it comical that people think the team needs to be at 100% full health to gauge whether or not the roster makes sense. You make it seem like Paolo and Franz didn’t play 35 minutes and got blown out.

It’s just such a disingenuous argument to be honest. We are talking about guys that are 100% going to be on the team for the foreseeable future for MAX money. Not some arbitrary player off the bench for 12mpg. Orlando didn’t lose this game by 40 points because Moe Wagner wasn’t healthy.

Tired of the homer rhetoric telling everyone to pump the brakes when the building is on fire and there are no answers. A lot of you are the reason this ownership and management have gotten away with murder by wasting everyone’s time with complacency.

You either think we've landed on two 6'10 all-star wings and love this core or you don't. No need to make it any more complicated than that.

The only downside I see is if Suggs is injury prone. Given we've locked up >15% of our cap on him he could really hold us back.

The rest is inconsequential. WCJ and JI are movable, AB, Jett, and TDS are rookie scale contracts for several more seasons, and KCP is a solid veteran in the first year of a three year deal.

The cap sheet is healthy minus Suggs salary, the core of Paolo and Franz is a perfect match, and we are armed with draft equity to make any re-tooling moves required.

Maybe Suggs gets healthy and gets back to contributing? All the better.

Pretty much how I feel, now the front office got to do the work.... And to be honest I'm quite a bit less confident in them now than when the season started

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[eyriq]

Pretty much how I feel, now the front office got to do the work.... And to be honest I'm quite a bit less confident in them now than when the season started

I'm interested to see what they do, too. Lots of decisions to make. They can't really make a significant change without trading someone. The more guaranteed years the harder it is to move the contract in my opinion. I don't even know what the market is for these players. We can use the mid-level exception which is around 9% of the cap, or what you pay your sixth best player. Getting an impact rotation player would be nice. Trading Cole I feel like has to be a priority as well. What they do with Moritz is going to be very interesting.

Non-core salaries:
Team options: Moe, Gary, Corey, Caleb
1 year guaranteed: Cole
2 years guaranteed: KCP, Goga
3+ years guaranteed: WCJ, JI
Rookie scale: AB, Jett, TDS

[pepe1991]

To me most annoying part about "not healthy" excuses club is fact that Magic right now only have 2 players out:
1) Mo Wagner, who won't return to basketball until 2026
2) Suggs, who was rushed to soon from first injury and pretty much has been injury prone for 3 out of 4 years

Nobody else is hurt.

It's NBA, almost every team lost somebody. Pistons lost Ivey, Raptors traded for Ingram who is yet to play, Davis picked up injury in first game post trade, Embiid might be out for rest of a season, after missing half of a season last year, OKC lost Chet for half of the season, after that they lost I Hart, Towns twisted his knee and is now out, Clippers play half of a season without Kawhi, Gordon missed half of the season for Nuggets, Vleet has been out since first game in February.
Have you seen what injuries did to Pelicans?

Do some of you actually watch any other team but Magic? Injuries every year are key factor for every single championship team. You can't "evaluate" team only and just only if they are 100% healthy, that's crazy talk. 82 regular season games in between 6 months + playoffs. Odds are, over one season, 80% of a roster will get hurt at some point.

[thelead]

To me most annoying part about "not healthy" excuses club is fact that Magic right now only have 2 players out:
1) Mo Wagner, who won't return to basketball until 2026
2) Suggs, who was rushed to soon from first injury and pretty much has been injury prone for 3 out of 4 years

Nobody else is hurt.

It's NBA, almost every team lost somebody. Pistons lost Ivey, Raptors traded for Ingram who is yet to play, Davis picked up injury in first game post trade, Embiid might be out for rest of a season, after missing half of a season last year, OKC lost Chet for half of the season, after that they lost I Hart, Towns twisted his knee and is now out, Clippers play half of a season without Kawhi, Gordon missed half of the season for Nuggets, Vleet has been out since first game in February.
Have you seen what injuries did to Pelicans?

Do some of you actually watch any other team but Magic? Injuries every year are key factor for every single championship team. You can't "evaluate" team only and just only if they are 100% healthy, that's crazy talk. 82 regular season games in between 6 months + playoffs. Odds are, over one season, 80% of a roster will get hurt at some point.

The answer to this is no. You can tell because people are always upset when teams shoot 40+% from 3 against us like it's so rare

And you're right about the injuries. Suggs is my favorite player on this team but his injury cannot be the excuse for why we're 9-16 without him. And to your point about Mo, he won't be back until 2026 and the FO decided to do nothing to help this team in the interim or moving forward.

I'm just disgusted with the franchise right now.

[KillMonger]

Pretty much how I feel, now the front office got to do the work.... And to be honest I'm quite a bit less confident in them now than when the season started

I'm interested to see what they do, too. Lots of decisions to make. They can't really make a significant change without trading someone. The more guaranteed years the harder it is to move the contract in my opinion. I don't even know what the market is for these players. We can use the mid-level exception which is around 9% of the cap, or what you pay your sixth best player. Getting an impact rotation player would be nice. Trading Cole I feel like has to be a priority as well. What they do with Moritz is going to be very interesting.

Non-core salaries:
Team options: Moe, Gary, Corey, Caleb
1 year guaranteed: Cole
2 years guaranteed: KCP, Goga
3+ years guaranteed: WCJ, JI
Rookie scale: AB, Jett, TDS

Quite a few of those guys we held onto too long, I don't remember which poster it was but they kept saying we should trade Cole before he loses value.... Turns out he was right....Paolo/Franz/Suggs/AB/Moe for me these are the guys I'm comfortable with going forward....with AB and moe really being honorable mentions.....significant changes need to be made, pretty much a brand new rotation surrounding Paolo and Franz at the center

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[GelbeWand09]

I'll happily buy up all the Franz, Paolo, and AB stock y'all are selling

I'm in full agreement assuming the AB stock is cheap...all this talk of Paolo being a problem is crazy to me when you look at the box score EVERY DAMN NIGHT and see zeroes and single digits all the way down the "pts" column.

If you're not a threat to score, I don't cover you. If I don't cover you, I look to help on someone who can score...oh, there's only two of those -easy!

It doesn't matter how many points he scores compared to others. That logic lead to all those horrible offenses in the 90s and 2000s. It's about efficiency. I mean that is pretty easy math. When the player with the highest usage on the team isn't even leaque average in TS% it's hard to have a good offense even with good shooting and perfect complementary players around him (opposite of now).
I'm not talking about post injury Paolo, who is probably the most negative offensive player in the leaque behind maybe Poole. That's gonna be better. I talk about healthy Paolo.
There is more than enough sample size to be worried about Paolo as a future 1st option. Even more in combination with his iso heavy playing style, that additionally to his own inefficient offense, is bad for the rhythm of the other players and the flow of the offense.
Than you have that his whole game is based around drives (he can't finish) and freethrows (he doesn't hit). If getting to the line is your only elite skill as a 1st option, your offense will always be a Rollercoaster because the whistle is always different. Even more when you are not a good finisher, so you can't finish the drives when you doesn't get the whistle. Hence his super high volume of 5/21 kinda games.

I'm not even start talking about defense and that one way players have to be even more efficient than 2way stars to have good impact. Or that he can't shoot (I think he is a good catch and shoot shooter we rarely use).

[msmoore66]

I find it comical that people think the team needs to be at 100% full health to gauge whether or not the roster makes sense. You make it seem like Paolo and Franz didn’t play 35 minutes and got blown out.

It’s just such a disingenuous argument to be honest. We are talking about guys that are 100% going to be on the team for the foreseeable future for MAX money. Not some arbitrary player off the bench for 12mpg. Orlando didn’t lose this game by 40 points because Moe Wagner wasn’t healthy.

Tired of the homer rhetoric telling everyone to pump the brakes when the building is on fire and there are no answers. A lot of you are the reason this ownership and management have gotten away with murder by wasting everyone’s time with complacency.

I am not sure that is what people are meaning re the injuries, more that the season has been hugely disrupted, unlike last season. Suggs and Mo may be the only two out now, but they were a huge part of the way we were succeeding. That is regarding the results this season anyway...

I don't disagree with the roster view though, we already know what it is. Things will need to change, and I am getting more and more nervous we might not have the people in the FO to make the required changes.

But the bolded part, get a grip man, what are you even talking about here?! We aren't actually advisers to the GMs you know? The only tenuous impact we have on the team is if we buy tickets or not, and someone else will pick them up anyway. Maybe merch? Really dunno where you are going there.