2024-2025 Regular Season Game 60: Cleveland Cavaliers (47-10) at Orlando Magic (29-30) - 7:30pm

[Bergmaniac]

I'll happily buy up all the Franz, Paolo, and AB stock y'all are selling

I'm in full agreement assuming the AB stock is cheap...all this talk of Paolo being a problem is crazy to me when you look at the box score EVERY DAMN NIGHT and see zeroes and single digits all the way down the "pts" column.

If you're not a threat to score, I don't cover you. If I don't cover you, I look to help on someone who can score...oh, there's only two of those -easy!

It doesn't matter how many points he scores compared to others. That logic lead to all those horrible offenses in the 90s and 2000s. It's about efficiency. I mean that is pretty easy math. When the player with the highest usage on the team isn't even leaque average in TS% it's hard to have a good offense even with good shooting and perfect complementary players around him (opposite of now).
I'm not talking about post injury Paolo, who is probably the most negative offensive player in the leaque behind maybe Poole. That's gonna be better. I talk about healthy Paolo.
There is more than enough sample size to be worried about Paolo as a future 1st option. Even more in combination with his iso heavy playing style, that additionally to his own inefficient offense, is bad for the rhythm of the other players and the flow of the offense.
Than you have that his whole game is based around drives (he can't finish) and freethrows (he doesn't hit). If getting to the line is your only elite skill as a 1st option, your offense will always be a Rollercoaster because the whistle is always different. Even more when you are not a good finisher, so you can't finish the drives when you doesn't get the whistle. Hence his super high volume of 5/21 kinda games.

I'm not even start talking about defense and that one way players have to be even more efficient than 2way stars to have good impact. Or that he can't shoot (I think he is a good catch and shoot shooter we rarely use).

In every season of his career the Magic have done significantly better statistically when Paolo has been on the bench. That's a significant warning sign.

Yes, he is very talented and still very young, I hope he turns it around and become a highly positive impact player, but there is certainly reasons to worry whether he can be a first option on a contender and whether he'd be worth a max in the long term. His player archetype (bigs who aren't very good defenders, aren't elite passers and their main role is to score) hasn't had much success in recent years.

[yoyojw17]

I find it comical that people think the team needs to be at 100% full health to gauge whether or not the roster makes sense. You make it seem like Paolo and Franz didn’t play 35 minutes and got blown out.

It’s just such a disingenuous argument to be honest. We are talking about guys that are 100% going to be on the team for the foreseeable future for MAX money. Not some arbitrary player off the bench for 12mpg. Orlando didn’t lose this game by 40 points because Moe Wagner wasn’t healthy.

Tired of the homer rhetoric telling everyone to pump the brakes when the building is on fire and there are no answers. A lot of you are the reason this ownership and management have gotten away with murder by wasting everyone’s time with complacency.

I am not sure that is what people are meaning re the injuries, more that the season has been hugely disrupted, unlike last season. Suggs and Mo may be the only two out now, but they were a huge part of the way we were succeeding. That is regarding the results this season anyway...

I don't disagree with the roster view though, we already know what it is. Things will need to change, and I am getting more and more nervous we might not have the people in the FO to make the required changes.

But the bolded part, get a grip man, what are you even talking about here?! We aren't actually advisers to the GMs you know? The only tenuous impact we have on the team is if we buy tickets or not, and someone else will pick them up anyway. Maybe merch? Really dunno where you are going there.

Yup... disruption is the key. We are essentially back at the beginning of the season with players getting their feet underneath them.... while still being a young team that was supposed to truly solidify themselves and plant a flag. Some teams are in playoff ready form... while we're still trying to figure out the deck of cards that were dealt to them. Paolo left after 5 games in the season. 20 games later franz left. Luckily within that span... we found a new level of franz.... and during that stretch... other players tried their best to step up. Cleveland just gave us a solid hit in jaw in the first half...we were trying to get back in it and then they gave us another one. A near-healthy Knicks team lost by 35 points to the same team just prior. I hope they are trying to sell on Brunson, towns, bridges, and OG. lol

Just cuz we have Franz and Paolo back does not mean that there is no acclimation period for them and the team. A vastly superior team at this point of the season just whooped are A$$. plain and simple.

[eyriq]

To me most annoying part about "not healthy" excuses club is fact that Magic right now only have 2 players out:
1) Mo Wagner, who won't return to basketball until 2026
2) Suggs, who was rushed to soon from first injury and pretty much has been injury prone for 3 out of 4 years

Nobody else is hurt.

It's NBA, almost every team lost somebody. Pistons lost Ivey, Raptors traded for Ingram who is yet to play, Davis picked up injury in first game post trade, Embiid might be out for rest of a season, after missing half of a season last year, OKC lost Chet for half of the season, after that they lost I Hart, Towns twisted his knee and is now out, Clippers play half of a season without Kawhi, Gordon missed half of the season for Nuggets, Vleet has been out since first game in February.
Have you seen what injuries did to Pelicans?

Do some of you actually watch any other team but Magic? Injuries every year are key factor for every single championship team. You can't "evaluate" team only and just only if they are 100% healthy, that's crazy talk. 82 regular season games in between 6 months + playoffs. Odds are, over one season, 80% of a roster will get hurt at some point.

Our top three in minutes played are KCP, AB, and TDS. This season has been heavily disrupted by injuries. Ignoring injuries in any evaluation would be malpractice.

[pepe1991]

To me most annoying part about "not healthy" excuses club is fact that Magic right now only have 2 players out:
1) Mo Wagner, who won't return to basketball until 2026
2) Suggs, who was rushed to soon from first injury and pretty much has been injury prone for 3 out of 4 years

Nobody else is hurt.

It's NBA, almost every team lost somebody. Pistons lost Ivey, Raptors traded for Ingram who is yet to play, Davis picked up injury in first game post trade, Embiid might be out for rest of a season, after missing half of a season last year, OKC lost Chet for half of the season, after that they lost I Hart, Towns twisted his knee and is now out, Clippers play half of a season without Kawhi, Gordon missed half of the season for Nuggets, Vleet has been out since first game in February.
Have you seen what injuries did to Pelicans?

Do some of you actually watch any other team but Magic? Injuries every year are key factor for every single championship team. You can't "evaluate" team only and just only if they are 100% healthy, that's crazy talk. 82 regular season games in between 6 months + playoffs. Odds are, over one season, 80% of a roster will get hurt at some point.

Our top three in minutes played are KCP, AB, and TDS. This season has been heavily disrupted by injuries. Ignoring injuries in any evaluation would be malpractice.

Franz will surpass both 2# and 3# in min played within next 3 games, given he is 4th with sub 50 min less played than both.

Today Orlando has 18 men on roster under contract, and two injured players. Among all the excuses for current situation (7-13 in past 20 games) injury excuse simply can't be one. They literally had better record with more players missing games than they have now.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

To me most annoying part about "not healthy" excuses club is fact that Magic right now only have 2 players out:
1) Mo Wagner, who won't return to basketball until 2026
2) Suggs, who was rushed to soon from first injury and pretty much has been injury prone for 3 out of 4 years

Nobody else is hurt.

It's NBA, almost every team lost somebody. Pistons lost Ivey, Raptors traded for Ingram who is yet to play, Davis picked up injury in first game post trade, Embiid might be out for rest of a season, after missing half of a season last year, OKC lost Chet for half of the season, after that they lost I Hart, Towns twisted his knee and is now out, Clippers play half of a season without Kawhi, Gordon missed half of the season for Nuggets, Vleet has been out since first game in February.
Have you seen what injuries did to Pelicans?

Do some of you actually watch any other team but Magic? Injuries every year are key factor for every single championship team. You can't "evaluate" team only and just only if they are 100% healthy, that's crazy talk. 82 regular season games in between 6 months + playoffs. Odds are, over one season, 80% of a roster will get hurt at some point.

Our top three in minutes played are KCP, AB, and TDS. This season has been heavily disrupted by injuries. Ignoring injuries in any evaluation would be malpractice.

I’d argue KCP and AB should be in the top of minutes played regardless of injuries. A dude you spent 22M on to fix your problems and your 6th pick young guard.

TDS is the only outlier and honestly he balled early then hit the rookie wall.

[VFX]

I find it comical that people think the team needs to be at 100% full health to gauge whether or not the roster makes sense. You make it seem like Paolo and Franz didn’t play 35 minutes and got blown out.

It’s just such a disingenuous argument to be honest. We are talking about guys that are 100% going to be on the team for the foreseeable future for MAX money. Not some arbitrary player off the bench for 12mpg. Orlando didn’t lose this game by 40 points because Moe Wagner wasn’t healthy.

Tired of the homer rhetoric telling everyone to pump the brakes when the building is on fire and there are no answers. A lot of you are the reason this ownership and management have gotten away with murder by wasting everyone’s time with complacency.

You either think we've landed on two 6'10 all-star wings and love this core or you don't. No need to make it any more complicated than that.

The only downside I see is if Suggs is injury prone. Given we've locked up >15% of our cap on him he could really hold us back.

The rest is inconsequential. WCJ and JI are movable, AB, Jett, and TDS are rookie scale contracts for several more seasons, and KCP is a solid veteran in the first year of a three year deal.

The cap sheet is healthy minus Suggs salary, the core of Paolo and Franz is a perfect match, and we are armed with draft equity to make any re-tooling moves required.

Maybe Suggs gets healthy and gets back to contributing? All the better.

So your entire takeaway from the offense collapsing into a black hole this season is that Paolo and Franz are a “perfect match” on offense but Suggs might be overpaid because he’s been injured a lot? That’s certainly a take.

No. Suggs is a guy that, when healthy, is the archetype to pair next to those two guys when you look at it on paper. I hear about people campaigning for Desmond Bane for 3 seasons and we have that guy already. You can’t possibly be looking at the numbers with and without Suggs and come away with him being the problem here.

For the millionth time… it’s how they are being used within the context of an offense. you know? You have to do more work than just drafting a bunch of talent with all the same overlapping skillsets, roll the ball out there, and say “have fun”.

Those moves you listed aren’t inconsequential. It all adds up to losing value that would have otherwise placed better options next to these two players you think are “perfect” together but get blown out against good teams. Magic aren’t getting the same kind of returns on those contracts now and the development timeframe has shifted. That’s the point.

[VFX]

I find it comical that people think the team needs to be at 100% full health to gauge whether or not the roster makes sense. You make it seem like Paolo and Franz didn’t play 35 minutes and got blown out.

It’s just such a disingenuous argument to be honest. We are talking about guys that are 100% going to be on the team for the foreseeable future for MAX money. Not some arbitrary player off the bench for 12mpg. Orlando didn’t lose this game by 40 points because Moe Wagner wasn’t healthy.

Tired of the homer rhetoric telling everyone to pump the brakes when the building is on fire and there are no answers. A lot of you are the reason this ownership and management have gotten away with murder by wasting everyone’s time with complacency.

I am not sure that is what people are meaning re the injuries, more that the season has been hugely disrupted, unlike last season. Suggs and Mo may be the only two out now, but they were a huge part of the way we were succeeding. That is regarding the results this season anyway...

I don't disagree with the roster view though, we already know what it is. Things will need to change, and I am getting more and more nervous we might not have the people in the FO to make the required changes.

But the bolded part, get a grip man, what are you even talking about here?! We aren't actually advisers to the GMs you know? The only tenuous impact we have on the team is if we buy tickets or not, and someone else will pick them up anyway. Maybe merch? Really dunno where you are going there.

Magic fans have always been forgiving of the organization making the stupidest decisions. There is no pushback here ever. There is no media asking real questions to these guys when things start falling apart. Anyone with connections to the team is terrified of losing standing if they do start asking real questions.

Fans just want to watch AG or Mac McClung win a dunk contest to remind people Orlando exists still in the league. Making it to the playoffs to sell tickets is all ownership wants because fans are OK with that. People lose their minds when The Magic are even mentioned by a larger podcast.

Do you really think the Celtics, Knicks, 76ers, or Lakers have the same level of scrutiny with their ownership and management by fans? No. Those are organizations that have expectations. They aren’t OK with diminishing results for any reason. It’s a nightmare for them to miss the playoffs. Their fans let them know.

Weltman has been here 8 seasons and posters like you buy into the “health and consistency” scam every year. We have flown past trade deadlines and uneventful offseasons and the takeaway is “just wait and see. Weltman knows what he’s doing”. Not sure how you haven’t connected that yet.

[eyriq]

To me most annoying part about "not healthy" excuses club is fact that Magic right now only have 2 players out:
1) Mo Wagner, who won't return to basketball until 2026
2) Suggs, who was rushed to soon from first injury and pretty much has been injury prone for 3 out of 4 years

Nobody else is hurt.

It's NBA, almost every team lost somebody. Pistons lost Ivey, Raptors traded for Ingram who is yet to play, Davis picked up injury in first game post trade, Embiid might be out for rest of a season, after missing half of a season last year, OKC lost Chet for half of the season, after that they lost I Hart, Towns twisted his knee and is now out, Clippers play half of a season without Kawhi, Gordon missed half of the season for Nuggets, Vleet has been out since first game in February.
Have you seen what injuries did to Pelicans?

Do some of you actually watch any other team but Magic? Injuries every year are key factor for every single championship team. You can't "evaluate" team only and just only if they are 100% healthy, that's crazy talk. 82 regular season games in between 6 months + playoffs. Odds are, over one season, 80% of a roster will get hurt at some point.

Our top three in minutes played are KCP, AB, and TDS. This season has been heavily disrupted by injuries. Ignoring injuries in any evaluation would be malpractice.

I’d argue KCP and AB should be in the top of minutes played regardless of injuries. A dude you spent 22M on to fix your problems and your 6th pick young guard.

TDS is the only outlier and honestly he balled early then hit the rookie wall.

Last season the top three were Paolo, Franz, and Suggs. 47 wins

2023, Paolo, Franz, Fultz. 34 wins

2022, Franz, Cole, WCJ. 22 wins

You can get a long way just be looking at who is getting the most minutes. You don't really have to overcomplicate the analysis.

[JoshuaPotter]

Our top three in minutes played are KCP, AB, and TDS. This season has been heavily disrupted by injuries. Ignoring injuries in any evaluation would be malpractice.

I’d argue KCP and AB should be in the top of minutes played regardless of injuries. A dude you spent 22M on to fix your problems and your 6th pick young guard.

TDS is the only outlier and honestly he balled early then hit the rookie wall.

Last season the top three were Paolo, Franz, and Suggs. 47 wins

2023, Paolo, Franz, Fultz. 34 wins

2022, Franz, Cole, WCJ. 22 wins

You can get a long way just be looking at who is getting the most minutes. You don't really have to overcomplicate the analysis.

Healthy we are a minimum .500 ball team because of Franz - Paolo - Suggs. That part of the analysis should be over.

The next phase of the analysis should be how do we leverage our non existing offensive talent for offensive talent that doesn't ship our entire identity with it?

The KCP signing, I have no friggin clue what happened. Still a great defender. Exactly what we want from that end I think. But the spread the floor for Paolo + Franz to operate narrative just didn't or hasn't worked. I would humbly suggest to anyone on the forum that with Paolo + Franz on the court KCP should be yeeting open 3s like nobodies business and draining them at Suggs level clips because Franz and Paolo would be offensive magnets otherwise.

If GM straight up said, he felt he was being taken advantage of because team were seeing him as "desperate" and increasing the price of players I believe it. Because as everyone else has said "this is a disaster."

[eyriq]

Healthy we are a minimum .500 ball team because of Franz - Paolo - Suggs. That part of the analysis should be over.

The next phase of the analysis should be how do we leverage our non existing offensive talent for offensive talent that doesn't ship our entire identity with it?

The KCP signing, I have no friggin clue what happened. Still a great defender. Exactly what we want from that end I think. But the spread the floor for Paolo + Franz to operate narrative just didn't or hasn't worked. I would humbly suggest to anyone on the forum that with Paolo + Franz on the court KCP should be yeeting open 3s like nobodies business and draining them at Suggs level clips because Franz and Paolo would be offensive magnets otherwise.

If GM straight up said, he felt he was being taken advantage of because team were seeing him as "desperate" and increasing the price of players I believe it. Because as everyone else has said "this is a disaster."

Agreed. My read is that:

1. The core is good.
2. Team performance is not indicative of the quality of the core.
3. Team performance is best explained by injuries.
4. The build around the core is not optimized for fit, it's a build of convenience.
5. Trades are needed to re-tool.
6. Cole is the bare minimum starting point for trades.

[Fortune Teller]

There is more evidence to suggest that last year's healthy, 47-win season was more of the anomaly than this year's injury-riddled backslide. Last year was the only one in Suggs' 4-year career where he managed to stay healthy. This season is closer to the norm for him in terms of availability. Last year the team shot the ball much better but it was still awful by league standards, and again, there is more evidence to suggest that was the anomaly rather than this year's dumpster fire. Personnel-wise, this is a very, very bad shooting team up and down the roster. As Stan Van Gundy said on the national broadcast, they are painful to watch. So why is Jeff still here after 8 years? Why is Jonathan Isaac our highest-paid player in his 8th year with the team? Why did we use a #6 pick on Anthony Black, another player who can't spread the floor, after hanging on to Fultz for 5 years? This isn't vision, this is apathy.

[JoshuaPotter]

Healthy we are a minimum .500 ball team because of Franz - Paolo - Suggs. That part of the analysis should be over.

The next phase of the analysis should be how do we leverage our non existing offensive talent for offensive talent that doesn't ship our entire identity with it?

The KCP signing, I have no friggin clue what happened. Still a great defender. Exactly what we want from that end I think. But the spread the floor for Paolo + Franz to operate narrative just didn't or hasn't worked. I would humbly suggest to anyone on the forum that with Paolo + Franz on the court KCP should be yeeting open 3s like nobodies business and draining them at Suggs level clips because Franz and Paolo would be offensive magnets otherwise.

If GM straight up said, he felt he was being taken advantage of because team were seeing him as "desperate" and increasing the price of players I believe it. Because as everyone else has said "this is a disaster."

Agreed. My read is that:

1. The core is good.
2. Team performance is not indicative of the quality of the core.
3. Team performance is best explained by injuries.
4. The build around the core is not optimized for fit, it's a build of convenience.
5. Trades are needed to re-tool.
6. Cole is the bare minimum starting point for trades.

Cole has more or less retained his value that awarded him his contract. The big question being, how the heck did he let himself fall so far? Is that a Mose leash thing? Is that something else? Is this where players offense goes to die? Is Paolo + Franz really super elite and somehow its a coach management roster thing?

[VFX]

Healthy we are a minimum .500 ball team because of Franz - Paolo - Suggs. That part of the analysis should be over.

The next phase of the analysis should be how do we leverage our non existing offensive talent for offensive talent that doesn't ship our entire identity with it?

The KCP signing, I have no friggin clue what happened. Still a great defender. Exactly what we want from that end I think. But the spread the floor for Paolo + Franz to operate narrative just didn't or hasn't worked. I would humbly suggest to anyone on the forum that with Paolo + Franz on the court KCP should be yeeting open 3s like nobodies business and draining them at Suggs level clips because Franz and Paolo would be offensive magnets otherwise.

If GM straight up said, he felt he was being taken advantage of because team were seeing him as "desperate" and increasing the price of players I believe it. Because as everyone else has said "this is a disaster."

Agreed. My read is that:

1. The core is good.
2. Team performance is not indicative of the quality of the core.
3. Team performance is best explained by injuries.
4. The build around the core is not optimized for fit, it's a build of convenience.
5. Trades are needed to re-tool.
6. Cole is the bare minimum starting point for trades.

1. Good as in? First round exit with the healthiest season in two decades?

2. What metric are you using for this assessment? Levels of friendship? Do you watch this offense in the past two seasons and come away with the notion that this offense isn’t bottom 5 in the league with 2.5 max players?

3. Last seasons data didn’t matter when fully healthy? How convenient .

4. Yes. Which is what bad management does so they aren’t blamed in the short term but eventually the long term.

5. That ship sailed over the last 2 seasons when people wanted to “wait and see”. Because nobody understands contracts and value optimization. The front office certainly doesn’t.

6. Sure whatever I guess. AB has more trade value and isn’t providing nearly the same on court value but whatever.

[eyriq]

Healthy we are a minimum .500 ball team because of Franz - Paolo - Suggs. That part of the analysis should be over.

The next phase of the analysis should be how do we leverage our non existing offensive talent for offensive talent that doesn't ship our entire identity with it?

The KCP signing, I have no friggin clue what happened. Still a great defender. Exactly what we want from that end I think. But the spread the floor for Paolo + Franz to operate narrative just didn't or hasn't worked. I would humbly suggest to anyone on the forum that with Paolo + Franz on the court KCP should be yeeting open 3s like nobodies business and draining them at Suggs level clips because Franz and Paolo would be offensive magnets otherwise.

If GM straight up said, he felt he was being taken advantage of because team were seeing him as "desperate" and increasing the price of players I believe it. Because as everyone else has said "this is a disaster."

Agreed. My read is that:

1. The core is good.
2. Team performance is not indicative of the quality of the core.
3. Team performance is best explained by injuries.
4. The build around the core is not optimized for fit, it's a build of convenience.
5. Trades are needed to re-tool.
6. Cole is the bare minimum starting point for trades.

Cole has more or less retained his value that awarded him his contract. The big question being, how the heck did he let himself fall so far? Is that a Mose leash thing? Is that something else? Is this where players offense goes to die? Is Paolo + Franz really super elite and somehow its a coach management roster thing?

We need better shooting and consistency from a scoring guard. We have Cole and we need a Sexton/Coby/Simons.

The next player we need to move is JI. He's a terrible offensive player and we need offense more than defense from our 3rd forward.

WCJ I'm unsure about. He had hand surgery in the offseason (I think?) which can explain his shooting dropoff.

After that the pivots become harder. Move off KCP? Trade Suggs? Trade some of AB, Jett, and TDS? How much draft equity do we commit to a re-tool?

[eyriq]

1. Good as in? First round exit with the healthiest season in two decades?

2. What metric are you using for this assessment? Levels of friendship? Do you watch this offense in the past two seasons and come away with the notion that this offense isn’t bottom 5 in the league with 2.5 max players?

3. Last seasons data didn’t matter when fully healthy? How convenient .

4. Yes. Which is what bad management does so they aren’t blamed in the short term but eventually the long term.

5. That ship sailed over the last 2 seasons when people wanted to “wait and see”. Because nobody understands contracts and value optimization. The front office certainly doesn’t.

6. Sure whatever I guess. AB has more trade value and isn’t providing nearly the same on court value but whatever.

1. First round exit in seven games at the ages of 22, 22, & 21. That performance drastically exceeded expectations on the whole. Your inability to recognize that is a huge problem and undermines a lot of your takes.

2. The critical metric you are looking for here is this amazing thing called "games played".

3. They've played limited minutes together, so, uhm, there ya go.

4. Whatever, they also drafted the core and have the rebuild ahead of schedule, I'll give them a pass.

5. We have a lot of financial flexibility remaining and trade assets to sweeten any deal. The ship has hardly sailed lol.

6. Trading AB is a terrible idea and worthy of Hennigan.

[JoshuaPotter]

Agreed. My read is that:

1. The core is good.
2. Team performance is not indicative of the quality of the core.
3. Team performance is best explained by injuries.
4. The build around the core is not optimized for fit, it's a build of convenience.
5. Trades are needed to re-tool.
6. Cole is the bare minimum starting point for trades.

Cole has more or less retained his value that awarded him his contract. The big question being, how the heck did he let himself fall so far? Is that a Mose leash thing? Is that something else? Is this where players offense goes to die? Is Paolo + Franz really super elite and somehow its a coach management roster thing?

We need better shooting and consistency from a scoring guard. We have Cole and we need a Sexton/Coby/Simons.

The next player we need to move is JI. He's a terrible offensive player and we need offense more than defense from our 3rd forward.

WCJ I'm unsure about. He had hand surgery in the offseason (I think?) which can explain his shooting dropoff.

After that the pivots become harder. Move off KCP? Trade Suggs? Trade some of AB, Jett, and TDS? How much draft equity do we commit to a re-tool?

Yeah, I think I am done with Mr Isaac but I am not sure if management is. The problem is who becomes "on sale" in this scenario?

Realistically speaking 1-2 roster moves and we are back in business.

I am slowly coming around to the idea that Suggs is the best asset to trade especially of Black continues to develop. At present rate, Black could become a slightly worse shooting Suggs. The dream would have been a Black + Suggs backcourt. But, I do not think we will live to see it. In a proper trade scenario, them plus our 1st / 2nd round picks would almost guarantee have to go.

[eyriq]

I am slowly coming around to the idea that Suggs is the best asset to trade especially of Black continues to develop. At present rate, Black could become a slightly worse shooting Suggs. The dream would have been a Black + Suggs backcourt. But, I do not think we will live to see it. In a proper trade scenario, them plus our 1st / 2nd round picks would almost guarantee have to go.

This conclusion is inevitable. Welcome aboard. Trade Suggs for a third option guard and develop AB to be the head of the snake.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

I am slowly coming around to the idea that Suggs is the best asset to trade especially of Black continues to develop. At present rate, Black could become a slightly worse shooting Suggs. The dream would have been a Black + Suggs backcourt. But, I do not think we will live to see it. In a proper trade scenario, them plus our 1st / 2nd round picks would almost guarantee have to go.

This conclusion is inevitable. Welcome aboard. Trade Suggs for a third option guard and develop AB to be the head of the snake.

and watch Paolo/Franz ask out because the FO can't build a competent roster

your homerism views for AB is levels of Fultz and EP stuff, quite impressive

[VFX]

1. Good as in? First round exit with the healthiest season in two decades?

2. What metric are you using for this assessment? Levels of friendship? Do you watch this offense in the past two seasons and come away with the notion that this offense isn’t bottom 5 in the league with 2.5 max players?

3. Last seasons data didn’t matter when fully healthy? How convenient .

4. Yes. Which is what bad management does so they aren’t blamed in the short term but eventually the long term.

5. That ship sailed over the last 2 seasons when people wanted to “wait and see”. Because nobody understands contracts and value optimization. The front office certainly doesn’t.

6. Sure whatever I guess. AB has more trade value and isn’t providing nearly the same on court value but whatever.

1. First round exit in seven games at the ages of 22, 22, & 21. That performance drastically exceeded expectations on the whole. Your inability to recognize that is a huge problem and undermines a lot of your takes.

2. The critical metric you are looking for here is this amazing thing called "games played".

3. They've played limited minutes together, so, uhm, there ya go.

4. Whatever, they also drafted the core and have the rebuild ahead of schedule, I'll give them a pass.

5. We have a lot of financial flexibility remaining and trade assets to sweeten any deal. The ship has hardly sailed lol.

6. Trading AB is a terrible idea and worthy of Hennigan.

1. Bottom tier offense. Ages don't matter if nothing has actually looked like it progressed. We've regressed this season. The shooting has gotten worse.

2. Games played = quality of core? Interesting.

3. Your two max players, playing together with extremely high usage, have a bottom 3 offense. Nothing to see here.

4. At what point are they "on schedule"? When the offense is average? You know these players could be in their 30's and the roster construction still matters more than you are admitting.

5. Yeah? We had more 2 seasons ago. They squandered almost all of it re-signing scrubs this past off season. Lol. Two picks outside of the lottery, some fringe starters, bad vets, and Wendell Carter on a semi-expensive deal now? Yeah so many assets...

6. You make it sound like AB has shown such significant levels of success this season that Cole hasn't taken his job a number of times. Hey. They decided to play Suggs out of position rather than start AB. That should tell you something. Yeah, Oladipo was a starter averaging 18ppg in year 2. AB is half of that. He wouldn't even get a return of Ibaka if they tried. Your delusions of grandeur concerning AB clouds all assessments of where this team actually is right now. I dont even think hes a bad player, but he isnt moving the needle and this roster is begging anyone barring their big 3 to do so.

These responses make it seem like you work for the FO or something. They sound like things written on white boards and daily affirmations for why they should keep their jobs.

[eyriq]

I am slowly coming around to the idea that Suggs is the best asset to trade especially of Black continues to develop. At present rate, Black could become a slightly worse shooting Suggs. The dream would have been a Black + Suggs backcourt. But, I do not think we will live to see it. In a proper trade scenario, them plus our 1st / 2nd round picks would almost guarantee have to go.

This conclusion is inevitable. Welcome aboard. Trade Suggs for a third option guard and develop AB to be the head of the snake.

and watch Paolo/Franz ask out because the FO can't build a competent roster

your homerism views for AB is levels of Fultz and EP stuff, quite impressive

Remember to say sorry when AB proves me right.