DimesandKnicks wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:DimesandKnicks wrote:U could just respond
I'll leave you with this as frankly reading that block, I have already covered basically anything and everything you asked.
RAPM based metrics for Jokic's full career show he's a plus defender. The data set here is too large to be wrong. We cannot argue with this and I believe I've provided enough explanation and links to cover this topic. RAPM with that much data is directionally a fact. So now if we are to continue we need to explain why it's a fact. You can argue he's still a bad defender despite there being a clear positive impact to his team with him on the court, but you'd have to build the argument from there.
I have provided the following.
Jokic is slow and a poor shot blocker. These traits make him among the bottom 25% of defenders in a conventional sense. However he also is an elite defensive rebounder which would improve him here. We've already covered the math on his plus impact on limiting extra possessions vs his impact on challenge shots.
Jokic is a high IQ player who reads plays to interrupt them, prevent them, or calls out to teams. I can't really show this outside of film which again as been provided from multiple sources. Both thinking basketball and basketball breakdown.
Jokic is elite in terms of steals and deflections. He's also a unicorn in terms of kicked balls to reset the clock when plays are lost. We've attempted to cover roughly what this impact could be.
Jokic is high energy, stays in plays (this benefits altering shots, reducing some shots attempts, and of course improves his rebounding), and remains active. Again we've covered smart reads. We've covered how this results in a weakness like his mobility, not changing that he's an elite pick and roll defender, and the 0.78 ppp against shows this. And of course he doesn't foul.
Given RAPM data I believe the totality of the above is why he's a neutral to slight plus defender. The rest of the RAPM showing him a plus comes down to his offense is so good it makes the defense better.
If there's an aspect of defense I'm missing by all means bring it up. But I've more or less broken down per 100 what most of this does. We know what per 100 his impact on the court does. I can't easily quantify everything, but we can reasonable get close.
You've basically just said he doesn't challenge shots and thus he's a bad defender without try once to explain what impact EVERYTHING else has.
1. He's not just a poor shot blocker, he's a poor rim defender. While he's an elite rebounder, he isn't on the level of a Dwight Howard who defends the rim and rebounds. How many rebounds does he get because he's not actually defending the rim.
2. This isn't special. Most teams run the same plays and most teams know what plays other teams run. A C calling out plays or communicating on defense is nothing special
3. True, doesn't make up for being one of the worst rim defenders and worst and defending drives and showing little effort at contesting shots
4. RAPM has COnley and Lillard as equals among other anomolies. Also, RAPM is considering a playrs entire career. Kidd was probably at Cauroso's level in his prime. If you calculate the impact of all these defenders in their prime, Jokic's impact (-2.1 or somthing) becomes less impressive. At the conlsuion of his career, he'll likely be a minus defender....if your care about metrics like RAPM that reflect a HOF top 75 All NBA Player versus a one time all-star as equals.
5. We can quantify that per 100 his awful at the things you want you C to do. Not challenging shots, makes someone a bad and lazy defender, not being able to defend in space or be switchable, not guarding your matchup when they have some offensive ability. I don't have to explain the impact everything else does...that's you're argument...I'm just highligting that your saying a player who leads the league in FGA against, among the worst in shots defended, and among the worst in his impact on defending players attempting to score make him a bad defender, depsite being good at deflections, steals, rebounds, and callng out plays, and RAPM.
1. You actually made my point. Yeah Jokic gives up some value by challenging by staying in the play and on his feet. This trade off has a ROI that you keep ignoring. And Howard? A multie time DPOY? Of course he's nothing like that.
2. There are levels to this like anything else. Jokic is better than most. As we keep going over, even one more good call out a game has tremendous value.
3. You keep dismissing it. Quantify it. How much does it make up for? Until you can put numbers to this in any context say "nu un" doesn't mean anything.
4. Oh god.
a. It does show that because the two have similar impact. Are you disputing RAPM came back to say Lillard is a better offensive play and Conley a better defender? Seems it's doing a really solid job in showing us their value.
b. The version of RAPM you are looking at was full career. There are 1, 3, 5, and so on data sets.
c. Well xRAPM from 2001 has Kidd at -2.1 and this year Caruso is at -3.2. You're really underrating him. OKC doesn't have KG but Caruso has been their best defender on a team rivaling the 2008 Celtics for best defense on record. People are really sleeping on OKC.
d. I've only noted Jokic's defense shows it's having a positive impact. I'm not big on trying to use these numbers as hard value. Each number should be seen as a range, not a set value. You're trying to use these values like they're your bank account balance vs a political poll with a margin of error.
e. The lend of Jokic's career already in that sample makes it HIGHLY unlikely Jokic will end his career as a negative defender, but even if he does. That would indicate he got slower and worse in his later seasons. If so maybe he will end his career with a few bad defensive seasons. He won't be the first or last to do that.
5. There's no thing I want a center to do other than fill in their role within the coach's system. Jokic does that. But we come back to the same point. We know Jokic has a plus impact on his team's defense. You can't explain why he does that despite being a bad defender. And that shows your refusal to actually try and quantify your points and look at the totality of the situation. This is why you remain incorrect in your assessment.
