OT: NFL 24-25 Thread Cont'd

[TerrenceClarke]

Anybody who is against SS is wild for the night. Nobody speaks about Cam Ward like this.

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[mpharris36]

Anybody who is against SS is wild for the night. Nobody speaks about Cam Ward like this.

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I'm just chasing ceiling. SS is a great processor/accurate but I believe you gotta chase arm talent and mobility. I'm not a QB evaluator just my opinion.

Its just a smaller window to find elite production from that position without either arm talent/mobility. Can he be a Drew Brees sure...I have seen Tua comps as well (obviously not the injuries) just the ability to make passes without having a strong arm. But when you look at the top QB's they typically possess elite traits whether it be with arm/mobility.

I guess I would be more willing to take a risk on that and sink or swim there.

[MrDollarBills]

With Shedeur his confidence doesn't bother me. Deion isn't letting any of his kids out into the world without belief in themselves and a work first attitude. There are legit concerns about Shedeur as a prospect physically, but I think he will come into any situation prepared to put in the work necessary for him to see the field. People underestimate how intelligent he is and how he manages to make something out of nothing without being a dual threat with his legs.

I think Shedeur is tough as nails too, a trait that we have lacked at the position since Eli left.

But he would need to sit this season and learn if we did draft him, same as Cam Ward. Is he willing to basically red shirt a year while Daboll and Schoen rely on a veteran to save their jobs while developing him? I'm not sure. I also don't want him here under these circumstances because frankly this could all blow up in Mara's face again.

As a lifelong fan of his father's, I'd rather see him go somewhere that isn't as dysfunctional right now. Just my personal preference. Shedeur needs a better situation than to be someone that gets thrown to the wolves

[MrDollarBills]

Also, the stuff about Shedeur being "brash" and arrogant is horsesh*t. Nothing Shedeur said during public interviews was out of bounds. He's always talked with confidence in himself.

Can Shedeur play? Does he have a ceiling for improvement and development? If the answer is yes, i don't care about him talking with a backbone. This kid is gonna put in the work.

Will he be a pro bowl QB? I dunno. But I know Shedeur is gonna work hard and he knows that nothing will be given to him for free. People talk like he's a bad kid when he isn't.

We know what this is about.

[GONYK]

The big issue with Shedur for me is that he publicly threw his teammates under the bus several times.

That's not leadership and it definitely will factor into the Giants' decision-making.

I wouldn't be against taking him, but it doesn't seem like his stock is a top 3 pick at this point and I'd definitely take Carter over him if we don't trade up for Cam.

[GONYK]

Also, the stuff about Shedeur being "brash" and arrogant is horsesh*t. Nothing Shedeur said during public interviews was out of bounds. He's always talked with confidence in himself.

Can Shedeur play? Does he have a ceiling for improvement and development? If the answer is yes, i don't care about him talking with a backbone. This kid is gonna put in the work.

Will he be a pro bowl QB? I dunno. But I know Shedeur is gonna work hard and he knows that nothing will be given to him for free. People talk like he's a bad kid when he isn't.

We know what this is about.

It's not necessarily the public interviews. Reportedly, he's rubbing teams the wrong way in the private visits.

"I spoke to two high-ranking individuals who work in personnel departments for two different NFL teams selecting in the top 10, each of whom was present for their team’s official meeting with Colorado quarterback Shedeur Sanders. Both of them told me they came away unimpressed with Sanders’s attitude during the meeting. One of them said Sanders “wasn’t taking it all that seriously.” The other said he didn’t have a “professional approach.” The general sense I got in talking to these two individuals is that they left the meeting feeling like Sanders wasn’t overly concerned with what they thought of him ...

Each of these individuals, I should add, works for a team that is in need of a quarterback. With that said, however, I can think of many stories I’ve been told about these meetings. Sometimes, if players don’t feel as though they’ll fall to a certain team, they aren’t as engaged ..."

Watch on YouTube

~7:30 mark is where the discussion starts.

It wouldn't surprise me if Sanders has a promise from the Raiders and is just blowing everyone else off.

[DOT]

What I've found is QB evaluation is heavily influenced by pre-formed opinions

Meaning it's all very subjective, even when evaluating the same play. Multiple people might see the same thing and evaluate it differently depending on if they like the guy or not for unrelated reasons

So if you don't like a QB like Shedeur before watching his film, subconsciously you're gonna be more negative about things you might've been positive about had you already liked him before, and vice versa

Same thing with Caleb Williams, dudes were homophobic because he wore a dress and painted his nails, and as such were overly critical of things they wouldn't've been had they not gone into watching him with having that in the back of their minds

Situation matters a ton for QB development. And situation can change on a dime, Washington went from awful situation to pretty good over the course of a few months

I think the Giants are in a bad spot when it comes to drafting a QB cause you got a HC/GM who need to win now and can't afford to be patient, but at least you do have a WR1 and potentially a solid line if AT can stay healthy.

[TerrenceClarke]

Anybody who is against SS is wild for the night. Nobody speaks about Cam Ward like this.

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I'm just chasing ceiling. SS is a great processor/accurate but I believe you gotta chase arm talent and mobility. I'm not a QB evaluator just my opinion.

Its just a smaller window to find elite production from that position without either arm talent/mobility. Can he be a Drew Brees sure...I have seen Tua comps as well (obviously not the injuries) just the ability to make passes without having a strong arm. But when you look at the top QB's they typically possess elite traits whether it be with arm/mobility.

I guess I would be more willing to take a risk on that and sink or swim there.

There is nothing that Cam Ward has done that suggests his ceiling is higher tho. Throwing a ball farther means nadda to me these days.




Again the NFL is full of dudes who can throw a bomb but can’t be accurate. Give me accuracy over pure arm strength. Give me processing speed over athleticism.

People are feeding into a narrative that there some huge gap between those two and there isn’t.

[mpharris36]

Anybody who is against SS is wild for the night. Nobody speaks about Cam Ward like this.

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I'm just chasing ceiling. SS is a great processor/accurate but I believe you gotta chase arm talent and mobility. I'm not a QB evaluator just my opinion.

Its just a smaller window to find elite production from that position without either arm talent/mobility. Can he be a Drew Brees sure...I have seen Tua comps as well (obviously not the injuries) just the ability to make passes without having a strong arm. But when you look at the top QB's they typically possess elite traits whether it be with arm/mobility.

I guess I would be more willing to take a risk on that and sink or swim there.

There is nothing that Cam Ward has done that suggests his ceiling is higher tho. Throwing a ball farther means nadda to me these days.




Again the NFL is full of dudes who can throw a bomb but can’t be accurate. Give me accuracy over pure arm strength. Give me processing speed over athleticism.

People are feeding into a narrative that there some huge gap between those two and there isn’t.

QB is a very volatile position you will miss a lot more than you will hit but can't blame someone for taking a shot. But the hits typically possess one of those elite physical traits. Like Brady couldn't move a lick but had a cannon for an arm and was an elite processor along with being deadlly accurate.

I do believe there is a significant arm talent differential between Ward and Sanders.

[mpharris36]

What I've found is QB evaluation is heavily influenced by pre-formed opinions

Meaning it's all very subjective, even when evaluating the same play. Multiple people might see the same thing and evaluate it differently depending on if they like the guy or not for unrelated reasons

So if you don't like a QB like Shedeur before watching his film, subconsciously you're gonna be more negative about things you might've been positive about had you already liked him before, and vice versa

Same thing with Caleb Williams, dudes were homophobic because he wore a dress and painted his nails, and as such were overly critical of things they wouldn't've been had they not gone into watching him with having that in the back of their minds

Situation matters a ton for QB development. And situation can change on a dime, Washington went from awful situation to pretty good over the course of a few months

I think the Giants are in a bad spot when it comes to drafting a QB cause you got a HC/GM who need to win now and can't afford to be patient, but at least you do have a WR1 and potentially a solid line if AT can stay healthy.

sure but not every evaluation has to be because you didn't like them off the field or for some other external reason outside of there on the field talent.

Sure I'm not in the locker room and obviously some players that played in the NFL thought Caleb Williams would have some difficulty winning over a "locker room". But I think most critiques were was a lot of his big chunk plays came from extending plays in the pocket and improvising. And there was legit concern he would be able to consistently do that in the NFL because the athletes are just different.

I honestly don't think "brash" is keeping Sanders from being the top pick. I simply think Ward has more elite traits that a FO or coach thinks they can mold. You can absolutely make the case Sanders has the highest ceiling of any QB in this class. That is a very fair argument IMO. He's pretty NFL ready makeup, he is a really strong processor, and accurate in the short to mid range area. That will play at the next level for sure. I probably didn't give Bo Nix enough credit at the time for being accurate...and I didn't think he was as good of an athlete as he was. So obviously people overlook certain traits when evaluating a player.

Even for the guys paid big bucks to do it make mistakes...its not an exact science. It's what makes the process and NFL draft so fascinating. Its even more emphasized at the QB position because of its important. But even not QB's...who though Evan Neal would be a flat out bust? Most thought he was so safe because he played 3 positions in college...was a huge guy and could move his feet well. He's not even 25 yet and he is not penciled in for a starter at this point in his career.

[TerrenceClarke]

Read on Twitter

I'm just chasing ceiling. SS is a great processor/accurate but I believe you gotta chase arm talent and mobility. I'm not a QB evaluator just my opinion.

Its just a smaller window to find elite production from that position without either arm talent/mobility. Can he be a Drew Brees sure...I have seen Tua comps as well (obviously not the injuries) just the ability to make passes without having a strong arm. But when you look at the top QB's they typically possess elite traits whether it be with arm/mobility.

I guess I would be more willing to take a risk on that and sink or swim there.

There is nothing that Cam Ward has done that suggests his ceiling is higher tho. Throwing a ball farther means nadda to me these days.




Again the NFL is full of dudes who can throw a bomb but can’t be accurate. Give me accuracy over pure arm strength. Give me processing speed over athleticism.

People are feeding into a narrative that there some huge gap between those two and there isn’t.

QB is a very volatile position you will miss a lot more than you will hit but can't blame someone for taking a shot. But the hits typically possess one of those elite physical traits. Like Brady couldn't move a lick but had a cannon for an arm and was an elite processor along with being deadlly accurate.

I do believe there is a significant arm talent differential between Ward and Sanders.

A QB isn’t just Arm Talent.

If that’s case Richardson would be a god right now.

Jeff George was a QB that had a legendary arm but couldn’t hack the mental part of the game to make him elite.

People in NY forget about Chad Pennington. Dude arm was not all that . But everything else was elite and he was a winner because of it. If not for injures Chad Pennington would go down as an elite QB.

Sanders has been doubted every aspect of his football life. Yet here is a dude that’s here being mentioned as a top 5 player in the draft. It’s very hard to do what he has done. He was literally just a “HBCU” quarterback 3 years ago.fast forward To being mentioned as one of the best QBs in all of college ball.

Sanders is a winner. He just keeps ascending and getting better. And if people don’t see it… they aren’t looking hard enough. I’m not betting against him.


The problem here is like I stated. Both QBs have something the other doesn’t have.

It’s for tit for tat.

My stance is I have no problem with either QB ….getting either one is significantly better than the options we have in front of us right now.

The draft is still like 2 months from now. There will be plenty of narratives from now till then.

Don’t be surprised when SS will be the flavor of the week and the same evaluators now who are meh on him, start saying something different.

[DOT]

I mean, if we're talking about being overlooked, Shedeur was a legit college prospect. He was the 37th QB in his class sure, only a 3 star, but he got real offers. If Deion wasn't coaching Jackson Sate, he would've gone to FAU. I know that because he committed there before decommitting to go to Jackson State

Cam Ward was a legit 0 star prospect, wasn't offered by any D1 school. He's the one who was overlooked, more so than Shedeur.

[Ghetto Gospel]

i like cam ward better than shedeur but i'd rather hang tight at 3 and pick shedeur than trade real assets to go to 1 to get cam

[MrDollarBills]

Also, the stuff about Shedeur being "brash" and arrogant is horsesh*t. Nothing Shedeur said during public interviews was out of bounds. He's always talked with confidence in himself.

Can Shedeur play? Does he have a ceiling for improvement and development? If the answer is yes, i don't care about him talking with a backbone. This kid is gonna put in the work.

Will he be a pro bowl QB? I dunno. But I know Shedeur is gonna work hard and he knows that nothing will be given to him for free. People talk like he's a bad kid when he isn't.

We know what this is about.

It's not necessarily the public interviews. Reportedly, he's rubbing teams the wrong way in the private visits.

"I spoke to two high-ranking individuals who work in personnel departments for two different NFL teams selecting in the top 10, each of whom was present for their team’s official meeting with Colorado quarterback Shedeur Sanders. Both of them told me they came away unimpressed with Sanders’s attitude during the meeting. One of them said Sanders “wasn’t taking it all that seriously.” The other said he didn’t have a “professional approach.” The general sense I got in talking to these two individuals is that they left the meeting feeling like Sanders wasn’t overly concerned with what they thought of him ...

Each of these individuals, I should add, works for a team that is in need of a quarterback. With that said, however, I can think of many stories I’ve been told about these meetings. Sometimes, if players don’t feel as though they’ll fall to a certain team, they aren’t as engaged ..."

Watch on YouTube

~7:30 mark is where the discussion starts.

It wouldn't surprise me if Sanders has a promise from the Raiders and is just blowing everyone else off.

Yeah I think so too. These guys aren't stupid. I think the Raiders want him and people are poisoning the well. It happens every year

Like I said, I don't think this situation is good for Shedeur. If we can get Ward without doing something stupid, we can be patient and develop him while letting a veteran try to win games.

Not that we'll win games.

[MrDollarBills]

i like cam ward better than shedeur but i'd rather hang tight at 3 and pick shedeur than trade real assets to go to 1 to get cam

I'm taking Hunter at 3 if Ward isn't available.

[mpharris36]

There is nothing that Cam Ward has done that suggests his ceiling is higher tho. Throwing a ball farther means nadda to me these days.




Again the NFL is full of dudes who can throw a bomb but can’t be accurate. Give me accuracy over pure arm strength. Give me processing speed over athleticism.

People are feeding into a narrative that there some huge gap between those two and there isn’t.

QB is a very volatile position you will miss a lot more than you will hit but can't blame someone for taking a shot. But the hits typically possess one of those elite physical traits. Like Brady couldn't move a lick but had a cannon for an arm and was an elite processor along with being deadlly accurate.

I do believe there is a significant arm talent differential between Ward and Sanders.

A QB isn’t just Arm Talent.

If that’s case Richardson would be a god right now.

Jeff George was a QB that had a legendary arm but couldn’t hack the mental part of the game to make him elite.

People in NY forget about Chad Pennington. Dude arm was not all that . But everything else was elite and he was a winner because of it. If not for injures Chad Pennington would go down as an elite QB.

Sanders has been doubted every aspect of his football life. Yet here is a dude that’s here being mentioned as a top 5 player in the draft. It’s very hard to do what he has done. He was literally just a “HBCU” quarterback 3 years ago.fast forward To being mentioned as one of the best QBs in all of college ball.

Sanders is a winner. He just keeps ascending and getting better. And if people don’t see it… they aren’t looking hard enough. I’m not betting against him.


The problem here is like I stated. Both QBs have something the other doesn’t have.

It’s for tit for tat.

My stance is I have no problem with either QB ….getting either one is significantly better than the options we have in front of us right now.

The draft is still like 2 months from now. There will be plenty of narratives from now till then.

Don’t be surprised when SS will be the flavor of the week and the same evaluators now who are meh on him, start saying something different.

Sorry I should have been more specific on "arm talent" not just drop back and heave it. Ward is able to fit ball into tight windows...manipulate arm angles that not many QB's can do...throw on the move. Richardson can just drop back and throw a bomb but he never had the intermediate game that was always the risk in developing him with his mobility.

See I disagree on Chad Pennington...would not consider him elite at all, wouldn't want my top pick to be a player with his ceiling. Solid game managing QB but only threw over 20 TD's once....never had a big enough arm to stretch the defense. Like I agree you can still win with that QB...but I think there are limitations with QB's that are more game managers like Brock Purdy and guys like that. Not saying those are direct comps but I'm shooting for higher potential.

[TerrenceClarke]

i like cam ward better than shedeur but i'd rather hang tight at 3 and pick shedeur than trade real assets to go to 1 to get cam

That’s the biggest thing here Cam Ward…. is not a QB level prospect you trade assets for when you already sitting at 3.

The gap is not that big. Anyone saying so is tripping.

[TerrenceClarke]

I mean, if we're talking about being overlooked, Shedeur was a legit college prospect. He was the 37th QB in his class sure, only a 3 star, but he got real offers. If Deion wasn't coaching Jackson Sate, he would've gone to FAU. I know that because he committed there before decommitting to go to Jackson State

Cam Ward was a legit 0 star prospect, wasn't offered by any D1 school. He's the one who was overlooked, more so than Shedeur.

This isn’t the overlooked Olympics.

The point stands that what SS did is not easy. The Same goes for what Cam did is not easy. Speaking on CW rise don’t change what SS did.

The problem here is you are assuming somebody was comparing the two in saying SS was overlooked vs CW not being overlooked.

MPH wants to devalue SS because he seems him as less talented. To do what SS is doing with a so called lack of arm talent needs to be commended, and not used as if he should be an after thought to the mighty CW.

[mpharris36]

I'm not trying to "devalue" anyone. I like Cam Ward significantly more based on there strengths and weaknesses. I don't think I am the only one in the camp that sees him as the clear QB1. Its not even shade at Sanders. Its more I like what Ward brings more.

[TerrenceClarke]

QB is a very volatile position you will miss a lot more than you will hit but can't blame someone for taking a shot. But the hits typically possess one of those elite physical traits. Like Brady couldn't move a lick but had a cannon for an arm and was an elite processor along with being deadlly accurate.

I do believe there is a significant arm talent differential between Ward and Sanders.

A QB isn’t just Arm Talent.

If that’s case Richardson would be a god right now.

Jeff George was a QB that had a legendary arm but couldn’t hack the mental part of the game to make him elite.

People in NY forget about Chad Pennington. Dude arm was not all that . But everything else was elite and he was a winner because of it. If not for injures Chad Pennington would go down as an elite QB.

Sanders has been doubted every aspect of his football life. Yet here is a dude that’s here being mentioned as a top 5 player in the draft. It’s very hard to do what he has done. He was literally just a “HBCU” quarterback 3 years ago.fast forward To being mentioned as one of the best QBs in all of college ball.

Sanders is a winner. He just keeps ascending and getting better. And if people don’t see it… they aren’t looking hard enough. I’m not betting against him.


The problem here is like I stated. Both QBs have something the other doesn’t have.

It’s for tit for tat.

My stance is I have no problem with either QB ….getting either one is significantly better than the options we have in front of us right now.

The draft is still like 2 months from now. There will be plenty of narratives from now till then.

Don’t be surprised when SS will be the flavor of the week and the same evaluators now who are meh on him, start saying something different.

Sorry I should have been more specific on "arm talent" not just drop back and heave it. Ward is able to fit ball into tight windows...manipulate arm angles that not many QB's can do...throw on the move. Richardson can just drop back and throw a bomb but he never had the intermediate game that was always the risk in developing him with his mobility.

See I disagree on Chad Pennington...would not consider him elite at all, wouldn't want my top pick to be a player with his ceiling. Solid game managing QB but only threw over 20 TD's once....never had a big enough arm to stretch the defense. Like I agree you can still win with that QB...but I think there are limitations with QB's that are more game managers like Brock Purdy and guys like that. Not saying those are direct comps but I'm shooting for higher potential.

Nobody is wowed by Jalen Hurts physical gifts. But Hurts is a winning QB.

Winners know how to win period.

What you should be saying is you are you shooting for perceived Higher potential.

Cause all potential is something that isn’t actualized Yet.

You equate physical ability as the higher ceiling.

When we see elite phyiscal guys never live up to it.

Russel Wilson was never an elite physical guy but he lives to his potential more so than guys who had stronger arms. Or who were faster etc.

Cam Ward is not a generational QB prospect so his Potential isn’t that crazy to me.

You fell into the thinking that Wards “potential” is worth trading for, and to me it’s not.

Giants are being thirsty. Nothing more nothing less.