Who is the better player currently: Shai or Giannis

[dhsilv2]

23yo Giannis vs Boston in 17-18 - 25.7/9.6/6.3 on 57%
24yo Giannis vs Boston in 18-19 - 28.4/10.8/5.2 on 53%
27yo Giannis vs Boston in 21-22 - 33.9/14.7/7.1 on 49%

Do you want to keep doing this?

I think i can rest my case.

Adding to that:

2018: 62% TS
2019: 62.5% TS
2022: 51.6% TS (45.7% FG, 25.0% 3P, 67.6% FT, ~ 10.6 FTA/g).

He struggled in 2022 with his efficiency, though of course he was rocking Jrue Holiday as his secondary scorer and Jrue managed 36.4 / 30.0 / 95.2 splits on 45.0% TS. Then redeemed himself two years later after going to Boston, lol

But yeah, of those three series, Giannis dominated in two and struggled when he had no help in the last one. I'd say, on average, he has done quite well against Boston in the playoffs.

Given his MVP level play in the season, these were still series I'd say he took a step back.

[tsherkin]

Given his MVP level play in the season, these were still series I'd say he took a step back.

I'm not inclined to call either of the first two series any kind of step back, particularly against a strong defense like Boston fields. Other high-end superstars have had similar dips, and he was still both remarkably productive AND murderously efficient. You want to get on him for the weak close-out in 2018, that's one thing, but his series-level performance was great.

It was only 2022 where he was really struggling.

[GiannisAnte34]

dhsilv has always been a Giannis/Bucks hater, it's part of the Raptors creed for many

Address the post, not the poster...

[dhsilv2]

dhsilv has always been a Giannis/Bucks hater, it's part of the Raptors creed for many

What the hell do the Raptors mean to me? I'm neither a fan of them or Leonard (one of my least favorite players in the league).

Also I was rooting for the bucks to win it all in both his MVP seasons. Just a weird comment.

[Special_Puppy]

Shai was clearly been better than Giannis this season so arguments for Giannis over SGA have rely on Giannis’s longer track record or an idea that Giannis might be more valuable in the playoffs

[dhsilv2]

Given his MVP level play in the season, these were still series I'd say he took a step back.

I'm not inclined to call either of the first two series any kind of step back, particularly against a strong defense like Boston fields. Other high-end superstars have had similar dips, and he was still both remarkably productive AND murderously efficient. You want to get on him for the weak close-out in 2018, that's one thing, but his series-level performance was great.

It was only 2022 where he was really struggling.

2019 being a 5 game series, I'd say it's not really worth discussing.

But 2018 it wasn't just a weak close out but he had a weak game 5 as well, going 5-10 with 16 points in 41+ minutes of play. I wouldn't generally bring things like that up if we weren't discussing apex level superstars here. Obviously it's nitpicky as hell, but we're being asked to believe Giannis's playoff history is such that we should just default to taking him over SGA here. Which given SGA's playoffs last year, I don't really see reason to make much of an adjustment.

[tsherkin]

But 2018 it wasn't just a weak close out but he had a weak game 5 as well, going 5-10 with 16 points in 41+ minutes of play. I wouldn't generally bring things like that up if we weren't discussing apex level superstars here. Obviously it's nitpicky as hell, but we're being asked to believe Giannis's playoff history is such that we should just default to taking him over SGA here. Which given SGA's playoffs last year, I don't really see reason to make much of an adjustment.

I think the point is more that SGA has to prove it still, particularly over an extended run.

As to game 5, part of it was foul trouble. But while he only scored 16 points, he did have 10 boards, 9 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks, and he did score those points on 57.3% TS, against a playoff league average at the time of 55.5%. So they had Middleton, Bledsoe and Jabari Parker shooting more. It wasn't a great game overall, but like, it was a 7-game series. He had 2 bad games. He isn't the only superstar to do that against a high-end defense. It was also his first season north of 22.9 ppg (in the RS), so he was still growing into his role as a volume scorer, which is worthy of consideration.

[JonHeist]

Man, I love Giannis as much as the next guy.

No. No you don't.

[dhsilv2]

But 2018 it wasn't just a weak close out but he had a weak game 5 as well, going 5-10 with 16 points in 41+ minutes of play. I wouldn't generally bring things like that up if we weren't discussing apex level superstars here. Obviously it's nitpicky as hell, but we're being asked to believe Giannis's playoff history is such that we should just default to taking him over SGA here. Which given SGA's playoffs last year, I don't really see reason to make much of an adjustment.

I think the point is more that SGA has to prove it still, particularly over an extended run.

As to game 5, part of it was foul trouble. But while he only scored 16 points, he did have 10 boards, 9 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks, and he did score those points on 57.3% TS, against a playoff league average at the time of 55.5%. So they had Middleton, Bledsoe and Jabari Parker shooting more. It wasn't a great game overall, but like, it was a 7-game series. He had 2 bad games. He isn't the only superstar to do that against a high-end defense. It was also his first season north of 22.9 ppg (in the RS), so he was still growing into his role as a volume scorer, which is worthy of consideration.

Shai last year had a 25.5 PER with a 9.2 BPM in the playoffs. Noticeable dip in PER but a small uptick in BPM. Against Dallas his low GmSc was 24, higher than Giannis in the series we're discussing. Now I get it, just 2 rounds and his team lost.

But the point being implied was that Giannis has been SUCH a great playoff performer that we should ignore this regular season's gap or even just pick Giannis purely on his playoff greatness. I'm questioning that level of consistency and excellence in the playoffs. And I haven't even brought up the playoff injury history which is a real shame but real.

[dhsilv2]

Man, I love Giannis as much as the next guy.

No. No you don't.

I most certainly do.

[tsherkin]

dhsilv has always been a Giannis/Bucks hater, it's part of the Raptors creed for many

Man, I love Giannis as much as the next guy.

No. No you don't.

Post, not poster, guys.

[DanoMac]

But the point being implied was that Giannis has been SUCH a great playoff performer that we should ignore this regular season's gap

What gap?! Dude is putting up 30.7/12.1/5.9 on 61% compared to Shai at 32.7/5.1/6.2 on 52%. 2 less PPG (on much better efficiency) is a gap?! You either don't watch basketball, or you're as bad as the voters and bored of Giannis' greatness.

[tsherkin]

Shai last year had a 25.5 PER with a 9.2 BPM in the playoffs. Noticeable dip in PER but a small uptick in BPM. Against Dallas his low GmSc was 24, higher than Giannis in the series we're discussing. Now I get it, just 2 rounds and his team lost.

Shai's performance is immaterial to whether or not Giannis had a reasonable series against Boston in 2018, though, which is what you and I were discussing.

But the point being implied was that Giannis has been SUCH a great playoff performer that we should ignore this regular season's gap or even just pick Giannis purely on his playoff greatness. I'm questioning that level of consistency and excellence in the playoffs. And I haven't even brought up the playoff injury history which is a real shame but real.

This is a separate thing. I still think Shai has more to prove than a single series against Dallas and a surprisingly bleh showing against the Pelicans. So it isn't unreasonable to give the benefit of the doubt to the far-more-established Giannis.

[German Athens]

We need to wait for the playoffs. Guys in their 30s like Giannis aren’t trying to put up stats in meaningless regular season games. He’s got bigger fish to fry.

I'm a Giannis homer, but he is a stat hound. He is competitive in everything he does and stats matter to him. Sunday night against Cleveland, game was essentially over. I tell my buddy Giannis is going to hit his 30 and sit. 2 minutes later Giannis aggressive gets a basket and immediately leaves the game. There was no question that he was stat padding there.

Yes and no.

Yes, in that Giannis does take opportunities to boost points, or maybe try to get over the hump for a triple double here and there. But no, in that he doesn’t expend nearly as much energy as he used to in the regular season. Giannis has been coasting more and more defensively over the years, ramping up late in games in close contests, but that doesn’t actually mean he’s any less capable on that end.

I think the tricky thing with advanced stats is deciphering between impact and ability, particularly with aging players who start going through the motions, because they realize the playoffs are all that matters.

For my money, Giannis is the best he’s ever been now. His handle has steadily improved since his first MVP year where it felt like a majority of his drives would be drive left spin back right. He’s developed better and more consistent mid-range touch. He has a bevy of additional spots on the floor in which he can attack. He’s, I think, a pretty clearly better player than he was in 2019 or 2020, but EPM or LEBRON won’t say that.

[dhsilv2]

But the point being implied was that Giannis has been SUCH a great playoff performer that we should ignore this regular season's gap

What gap?! Dude is putting up 30.7/12.1/5.9 on 61% compared to Shai at 32.7/5.1/6.2 on 52%. 2 less PPG (on much better efficiency) is a gap?! You either don't watch basketball, or you're as bad as the voters and bored of Giannis' greatness.

Why don't you post useful stats and see what story they paint this year? Like what am I supposed to do with points per game?

Go through all the major metrics and compare and come back and at least then you address why you think the gap in stats is wrong about their play. Vs just insulting people and saying people here don't watch basketball.

[JonHeist]

Giannis really hasn't shown he's a high end playoff performer.

Can you please list every player in NBA history that you consider to be a "high end playoff performer"

since giannis deoesn't make your cut, I assume it shouldn't take much effort as the list should only be 10-20 names long

[dhsilv2]

Giannis really hasn't shown he's a high end playoff performer.

Can you please list every player in NBA history that you consider to be a "high end playoff performer"

since giannis deoesn't make your cut, I assume it shouldn't take much effort as the list should only be 10-20 names long

I'd have to work through that for a while but you're right. It would be less than 20 names.

[guynumber45]

How are we feeling now?