Game 71: Kings (35-35) vs Celtics (52-19)

[LightTheBeam]

I'll believe that when they start losing games they aren't supposed to lose

now its just injuries and tough part of the schedule

But it could be a "tread water" team.. I dont think Vivek torpedoes a low level competing playoff team.. Demar needs to be moved to the bench, and we may need a new, legit coach, but im not convinced with younger players getting better and the west aging the team needs to be blown up to restart in a non title or bust market

Couple things.

1. Look at the schedule. Of the next 11 which ones are we "supposed to win". Maybe 2? 3? So if we go 3-8 and finish 37-45 is that just well tough part of schedule bad luck? Good teams don't just roll over in the 4th quarter when they are beating teams like Milwaukee, Denver, lac..

2. Also wasn't Chicago a game we were supposed to win?

3. Your argument about west aging maybe made sense last year. Who in the west is aging? Kings are actually the one team is probably aging the worst. Our "core 3" will be 36, 30, 29 heading into next year. Our backup center splash deadline move is going to be 33. Even our "young guys" aren't that young.

Okc - getting better
Hous - youngest team in west playoffs
Denver - still prime aged
Lal - luka/reaves
Memphis- super young core
Warriors - old core, but have at least 1-2 years left
Clippers - old core
Wolves - ant, ddv, mcdaniels

We are now the old guys at the party, only we suck. And next year you'll have Portland, spurs, healthy Dallas, healthy pelicans all joining the party. Next year kings are fighting for 12th sadly.

Chicago just won eight of ten and just smacked the lakers at home

The pelicans b2b was a bad loss, as were the opening magic at home game.. aside from that, all the losses the new team has had have been the losses that any competing for lower level playoff team could lose with injuries

doesn't do any good crying about losing home to the Celtics, were going to see the measure of a low level playoff team with this 5 game stretch POR @orlando @indiana @washington @Charlotte

Joker is heading into his 30s and the Nuggets are solely reliant on him, thats a we'll see. So, okc, hous, Memphis, but these aren't shaking in your boots traditionally dominant type teams. But I see the west bunched up...

Monk/Keon/Zac/Keegan/Domas/Derozan/LaRavia hopefully etc. just isn't far enough away from competing for Vivek, who didn't even want to tear down a lot worse teams in previous years imo

I dont think even the most optimistic of optimistic fans believe this to be the case. This teams ceiling is the play-ins. Read yesterday Lavine has the worst win % of any player with 500 games played. Very easy to see why that is the case.

[BoogieTime]

Couple things.

1. Look at the schedule. Of the next 11 which ones are we "supposed to win". Maybe 2? 3? So if we go 3-8 and finish 37-45 is that just well tough part of schedule bad luck? Good teams don't just roll over in the 4th quarter when they are beating teams like Milwaukee, Denver, lac..

2. Also wasn't Chicago a game we were supposed to win?

3. Your argument about west aging maybe made sense last year. Who in the west is aging? Kings are actually the one team is probably aging the worst. Our "core 3" will be 36, 30, 29 heading into next year. Our backup center splash deadline move is going to be 33. Even our "young guys" aren't that young.

Okc - getting better
Hous - youngest team in west playoffs
Denver - still prime aged
Lal - luka/reaves
Memphis- super young core
Warriors - old core, but have at least 1-2 years left
Clippers - old core
Wolves - ant, ddv, mcdaniels

We are now the old guys at the party, only we suck. And next year you'll have Portland, spurs, healthy Dallas, healthy pelicans all joining the party. Next year kings are fighting for 12th sadly.

Chicago just won eight of ten and just smacked the lakers at home

The pelicans b2b was a bad loss, as were the opening magic at home game.. aside from that, all the losses the new team has had have been the losses that any competing for lower level playoff team could lose with injuries

doesn't do any good crying about losing home to the Celtics, were going to see the measure of a low level playoff team with this 5 game stretch POR @orlando @indiana @washington @Charlotte

Joker is heading into his 30s and the Nuggets are solely reliant on him, thats a we'll see. So, okc, hous, Memphis, but these aren't shaking in your boots traditionally dominant type teams. But I see the west bunched up...

Monk/Keon/Zac/Keegan/Domas/Derozan/LaRavia hopefully etc. just isn't far enough away from competing for Vivek, who didn't even want to tear down a lot worse teams in previous years imo

Seems like moving Zach was addition by subtraction.

Good? Do you think I care about pot shots about Lavine? If you want to hate on him do it...

Situating Giddey, who I wanted in that draft and who may be the next Nash... along with Coby White has helped, and Lavine may or may not have played a role in downsizing those talents..

Not seeing how that extrapolates here, just stick him at SF and have him launch at efficiency

[BoogieTime]

Couple things.

1. Look at the schedule. Of the next 11 which ones are we "supposed to win". Maybe 2? 3? So if we go 3-8 and finish 37-45 is that just well tough part of schedule bad luck? Good teams don't just roll over in the 4th quarter when they are beating teams like Milwaukee, Denver, lac..

2. Also wasn't Chicago a game we were supposed to win?

3. Your argument about west aging maybe made sense last year. Who in the west is aging? Kings are actually the one team is probably aging the worst. Our "core 3" will be 36, 30, 29 heading into next year. Our backup center splash deadline move is going to be 33. Even our "young guys" aren't that young.

Okc - getting better
Hous - youngest team in west playoffs
Denver - still prime aged
Lal - luka/reaves
Memphis- super young core
Warriors - old core, but have at least 1-2 years left
Clippers - old core
Wolves - ant, ddv, mcdaniels

We are now the old guys at the party, only we suck. And next year you'll have Portland, spurs, healthy Dallas, healthy pelicans all joining the party. Next year kings are fighting for 12th sadly.

Chicago just won eight of ten and just smacked the lakers at home

The pelicans b2b was a bad loss, as were the opening magic at home game.. aside from that, all the losses the new team has had have been the losses that any competing for lower level playoff team could lose with injuries

doesn't do any good crying about losing home to the Celtics, were going to see the measure of a low level playoff team with this 5 game stretch POR @orlando @indiana @washington @Charlotte

Joker is heading into his 30s and the Nuggets are solely reliant on him, thats a we'll see. So, okc, hous, Memphis, but these aren't shaking in your boots traditionally dominant type teams. But I see the west bunched up...

Monk/Keon/Zac/Keegan/Domas/Derozan/LaRavia hopefully etc. just isn't far enough away from competing for Vivek, who didn't even want to tear down a lot worse teams in previous years imo

I dont think even the most optimistic of optimistic fans believe this to be the case. This teams ceiling is the play-ins. Read yesterday Lavine has the worst win % of any player with 500 games played. Very easy to see why that is the case.

Its becoming clear he doesn't individually move the needle, though I don't think he's a problem. McNair targeted him because of his unreal efficiency as a scorer, and that can still be placed at SF hopefully defensively. As a great shooter too.. But the team around him needs to make the mark

[LightTheBeam]

Chicago just won eight of ten and just smacked the lakers at home

The pelicans b2b was a bad loss, as were the opening magic at home game.. aside from that, all the losses the new team has had have been the losses that any competing for lower level playoff team could lose with injuries

doesn't do any good crying about losing home to the Celtics, were going to see the measure of a low level playoff team with this 5 game stretch POR @orlando @indiana @washington @Charlotte

Joker is heading into his 30s and the Nuggets are solely reliant on him, thats a we'll see. So, okc, hous, Memphis, but these aren't shaking in your boots traditionally dominant type teams. But I see the west bunched up...

Monk/Keon/Zac/Keegan/Domas/Derozan/LaRavia hopefully etc. just isn't far enough away from competing for Vivek, who didn't even want to tear down a lot worse teams in previous years imo

I dont think even the most optimistic of optimistic fans believe this to be the case. This teams ceiling is the play-ins. Read yesterday Lavine has the worst win % of any player with 500 games played. Very easy to see why that is the case.

Its becoming clear he doesn't individually move the needle, though I don't think he's a problem. McNair targeted him because of his unreal efficiency as a scorer, and that can still be placed at SF hopefully defensively. As a great shooter too.. But the team around him needs to make the mark

Its becoming clear he doesn't individually move the needle

Bro, if the above is true, that means he absolutely is the problem. You can't get paid 45 million a year in this league and not move the needle. That is a franchise killer by definition.

[BoogieTime]

I dont think even the most optimistic of optimistic fans believe this to be the case. This teams ceiling is the play-ins. Read yesterday Lavine has the worst win % of any player with 500 games played. Very easy to see why that is the case.

Its becoming clear he doesn't individually move the needle, though I don't think he's a problem. McNair targeted him because of his unreal efficiency as a scorer, and that can still be placed at SF hopefully defensively. As a great shooter too.. But the team around him needs to make the mark

Its becoming clear he doesn't individually move the needle

Bro, if the above is true, that means he absolutely is the problem. You can't get paid 45 million a year in this league and not move the needle. That is a franchise killer by definition.

What is someone like prime Klay Thompson earning the contract for? Great efficiency scoring, great spacing, though Lavine a bit more prolific, higher ts%, and more of a playmaker.. neither contributed much on D.

Beating the other team by scoring more than them, and volume/efficiency is fairly solid in that regard... ~25 points on elite efficiency helps a team win.

And it's becoming clear why the Bulls valued that top ten protected pick as positive...

I don't know what else we would be spending the money on currently, have to see how it impacts the roster financially

[codydaze]

Chicago just won eight of ten and just smacked the lakers at home

The pelicans b2b was a bad loss, as were the opening magic at home game.. aside from that, all the losses the new team has had have been the losses that any competing for lower level playoff team could lose with injuries

doesn't do any good crying about losing home to the Celtics, were going to see the measure of a low level playoff team with this 5 game stretch POR @orlando @indiana @washington @Charlotte

Joker is heading into his 30s and the Nuggets are solely reliant on him, thats a we'll see. So, okc, hous, Memphis, but these aren't shaking in your boots traditionally dominant type teams. But I see the west bunched up...

Monk/Keon/Zac/Keegan/Domas/Derozan/LaRavia hopefully etc. just isn't far enough away from competing for Vivek, who didn't even want to tear down a lot worse teams in previous years imo

Seems like moving Zach was addition by subtraction.

Good? Do you think I care about pot shots about Lavine? If you want to hate on him do it...

Situating Giddey, who I wanted in that draft and who may be the next Nash... along with Coby White has helped, and Lavine may or may not have played a role in downsizing those talents..

Not seeing how that extrapolates here, just stick him at SF and have him launch at efficiency

No, it's just that you're really close to finally realizing who Zach is as a player and how he impacts winning. You were just saying a little over a week ago that the Bulls getting rid of Zach was putting them in the ping pong race. Again, having the most efficient season of your career at 30 years old is great and all but it doesn't change the fact that he has never contributed to winning in his career. For a fun thought experiment, I looked at the numbers for W-L records for Zach Lavine when he plays vs the W-L records of his teams when he is inactive.

Zach Lavine W-L Record When Active:
243-400 (37.8% Win Percentage, 31 win pace average for 82 game season)

Total Team W-L Record With Zach on Roster:
335-531 (38.7% Win Percentage, 32 win pace average for 82 game season)

Team W-L Record When Zach Is Inactive:
92-131 (41.3% Win Percentage, 34 win pace average for 82 game season)

His teams literally perform better when he does not play. When you compare this with someone like Domas who we know does impact winning, his teams have a 54.3% win percentage when he plays vs a 48.6% win percentage when he's inactive. Since you might be curious about Fox, his teams win at a 45.6% win percentage when he plays vs a 45.1% win percentage when he's inactive so he has a mostly neutral impact based off those numbers.

[LightTheBeam]

Its becoming clear he doesn't individually move the needle, though I don't think he's a problem. McNair targeted him because of his unreal efficiency as a scorer, and that can still be placed at SF hopefully defensively. As a great shooter too.. But the team around him needs to make the mark

Its becoming clear he doesn't individually move the needle

Bro, if the above is true, that means he absolutely is the problem. You can't get paid 45 million a year in this league and not move the needle. That is a franchise killer by definition.

What is someone like prime Klay Thompson earning the contract for? Great efficiency scoring, great spacing, though Lavine a bit more prolific, higher ts%, and more of a playmaker.. neither contributed much on D.

Beating the other team by scoring more than them, and volume/efficiency is fairly solid in that regard... ~25 points on elite efficiency helps a team win.

And it's becoming clear why the Bulls valued that top ten protected pick as positive...

I don't know what else we would be spending the money on currently, have to see how it impacts the roster financially

Comparing LaVine to prime Klay is absolutely hilarious.

Klay was the kind of guy who would drop 37 pts on 5 dribbles the entire game. LaVine takes 37 dribbles to score 5 points. These two couldn't be more different.

And prime Klay was actually a solid defender. He was not getting abused and lost the way LaVine is.

Can't believe I took the time to type that. No way you actually watched the two play and believe they are anything alike.

[BoogieTime]

Seems like moving Zach was addition by subtraction.

Good? Do you think I care about pot shots about Lavine? If you want to hate on him do it...

Situating Giddey, who I wanted in that draft and who may be the next Nash... along with Coby White has helped, and Lavine may or may not have played a role in downsizing those talents..

Not seeing how that extrapolates here, just stick him at SF and have him launch at efficiency

No, it's just that you're really close to finally realizing who Zach is as a player and how he impacts winning. You were just saying a little over a week ago that the Bulls getting rid of Zach was putting them in the ping pong race. Again, having the most efficient season of your career at 30 years old is great and all but it doesn't change the fact that he has never contributed to winning in his career. For a fun thought experiment, I looked at the numbers for W-L records for Zach Lavine when he plays vs the W-L records of his teams when he is inactive.

Zach Lavine W-L Record When Active:
243-400 (37.8% Win Percentage, 31 win pace average for 82 game season)

Total Team W-L Record With Zach on Roster:
335-531 (38.7% Win Percentage, 32 win pace average for 82 game season)

Team W-L Record When Zach Is Inactive:
92-131 (41.3% Win Percentage, 34 win pace average for 82 game season)

His teams literally perform better when he does not play. When you compare this with someone like Domas who we know does impact winning, his teams have a 54.3% win percentage when he plays vs a 48.6% win percentage when he's inactive. Since you might be curious about Fox, his teams win at a 45.6% win percentage when he plays vs a 45.1% win percentage when he's inactive so he has a mostly neutral impact based off those numbers.

Maybe I thought he had a little more gravity before he came here, as a former all star, and a guy who many Bulls fans thought was a high level player (I didn't know his game apart from loosely understanding his stats, I didn't perceived a motor issue but I never watched him). The thought I had of the Bulls record tied around why they wanted their pick back and my perception of the tenth worst record..

But I think my main point of contention was that he was a more useful player than Fox who we got compensated for taking.. Playing mostly at sf/pf in Chicago I thought he could fit around our guard lineups - monk/keon which has been our best lineup for example. could play off ball and space for his teammates unlike Fox.. So aside from the tangibles that I think make him better suited here, this goes back to how we view how teams win games.. The fact that someone is below ts% average and one is elite at ts% when the game is based on scoring output - weighs heavily on my mind..

But it seems going round and round.. there are a lot of posters here who seem fixated, or like defense, whereas I think its useful to give him an SF experiment as someone who can prolifically space the floor and move the ball (we can say he has iq issues but his assist %is fine for his position) for hopefully his other teammates who impact the game

[LightTheBeam]

Seems like moving Zach was addition by subtraction.

Good? Do you think I care about pot shots about Lavine? If you want to hate on him do it...

Situating Giddey, who I wanted in that draft and who may be the next Nash... along with Coby White has helped, and Lavine may or may not have played a role in downsizing those talents..

Not seeing how that extrapolates here, just stick him at SF and have him launch at efficiency

No, it's just that you're really close to finally realizing who Zach is as a player and how he impacts winning. You were just saying a little over a week ago that the Bulls getting rid of Zach was putting them in the ping pong race. Again, having the most efficient season of your career at 30 years old is great and all but it doesn't change the fact that he has never contributed to winning in his career. For a fun thought experiment, I looked at the numbers for W-L records for Zach Lavine when he plays vs the W-L records of his teams when he is inactive.

Zach Lavine W-L Record When Active:
243-400 (37.8% Win Percentage, 31 win pace average for 82 game season)

Total Team W-L Record With Zach on Roster:
335-531 (38.7% Win Percentage, 32 win pace average for 82 game season)

Team W-L Record When Zach Is Inactive:
92-131 (41.3% Win Percentage, 34 win pace average for 82 game season)

His teams literally perform better when he does not play. When you compare this with someone like Domas who we know does impact winning, his teams have a 54.3% win percentage when he plays vs a 48.6% win percentage when he's inactive. Since you might be curious about Fox, his teams win at a 45.6% win percentage when he plays vs a 45.1% win percentage when he's inactive so he has a mostly neutral impact based off those numbers.

This is wild. How does a guy get paid like this to literally be a career loser. I hated the trade the day we made it, It was literally what I considered the worst case scenario. I was more on board with going to Phx and getting Dunn + picks to take on Beal. Instead we got duped into paying for LaVine. That has to be one of the worst trades in recent memory.

[BoogieTime]

Its becoming clear he doesn't individually move the needle

Bro, if the above is true, that means he absolutely is the problem. You can't get paid 45 million a year in this league and not move the needle. That is a franchise killer by definition.

What is someone like prime Klay Thompson earning the contract for? Great efficiency scoring, great spacing, though Lavine a bit more prolific, higher ts%, and more of a playmaker.. neither contributed much on D.

Beating the other team by scoring more than them, and volume/efficiency is fairly solid in that regard... ~25 points on elite efficiency helps a team win.

And it's becoming clear why the Bulls valued that top ten protected pick as positive...

I don't know what else we would be spending the money on currently, have to see how it impacts the roster financially

Comparing LaVine to prime Klay is absolutely hilarious.

Klay was the kind of guy who would drop 37 pts on 5 dribbles the entire game. LaVine takes 37 dribbles to score 5 points. These two couldn't be more different.

And prime Klay was actually a solid defender. He was not getting abused and lost the way LaVine is.

Can't believe I took the time to type that. No way you actually watched the two play and believe they are anything alike.

You don't seem to understand manners and temperance, don't be replying and annoying me with your disrepescful takes.. why you and your mate are on ignore, but I get these yellow highlights when you reply to me..

Because he actually has a floor game unlike Klay and the defensive stats never backed up Klay's reputation, though he could be impressive individually on ball...

[OxAndFox]

Its becoming clear he doesn't individually move the needle

Bro, if the above is true, that means he absolutely is the problem. You can't get paid 45 million a year in this league and not move the needle. That is a franchise killer by definition.

What is someone like prime Klay Thompson earning the contract for? Great efficiency scoring, great spacing, though Lavine a bit more prolific, higher ts%, and more of a playmaker.. neither contributed much on D.

Beating the other team by scoring more than them, and volume/efficiency is fairly solid in that regard... ~25 points on elite efficiency helps a team win.

And it's becoming clear why the Bulls valued that top ten protected pick as positive...

I don't know what else we would be spending the money on currently, have to see how it impacts the roster financially

Comparing LaVine to prime Klay is absolutely hilarious.

Klay was the kind of guy who would drop 37 pts on 5 dribbles the entire game. LaVine takes 37 dribbles to score 5 points. These two couldn't be more different.

And prime Klay was actually a solid defender. He was not getting abused and lost the way LaVine is.

Can't believe I took the time to type that. No way you actually watched the two play and believe they are anything alike.

Has literally compared Lavine to 2 of the greatest guards to ever play the game in Klay and Steph.

That is very telling.

[LightTheBeam]

What is someone like prime Klay Thompson earning the contract for? Great efficiency scoring, great spacing, though Lavine a bit more prolific, higher ts%, and more of a playmaker.. neither contributed much on D.

Beating the other team by scoring more than them, and volume/efficiency is fairly solid in that regard... ~25 points on elite efficiency helps a team win.

And it's becoming clear why the Bulls valued that top ten protected pick as positive...

I don't know what else we would be spending the money on currently, have to see how it impacts the roster financially

Comparing LaVine to prime Klay is absolutely hilarious.

Klay was the kind of guy who would drop 37 pts on 5 dribbles the entire game. LaVine takes 37 dribbles to score 5 points. These two couldn't be more different.

And prime Klay was actually a solid defender. He was not getting abused and lost the way LaVine is.

Can't believe I took the time to type that. No way you actually watched the two play and believe they are anything alike.

You don't seem to understand manners and temperance, don't be replying and annoying me with your disrepescful takes.. why you and your mate are on ignore, but I get these yellow highlights when you reply to me..

Because he actually has a floor game unlike Klay and the defensive stats never backed up Klay's reputation, though he could be impressive individually on ball...

Calling out comparing Klay to Lavine isnt disrespectful. Grow up man, that stuff doesnt work on me. Have a good day.

[BoogieTime]

Seems like moving Zach was addition by subtraction.

Good? Do you think I care about pot shots about Lavine? If you want to hate on him do it...

Situating Giddey, who I wanted in that draft and who may be the next Nash... along with Coby White has helped, and Lavine may or may not have played a role in downsizing those talents..

Not seeing how that extrapolates here, just stick him at SF and have him launch at efficiency

No, it's just that you're really close to finally realizing who Zach is as a player and how he impacts winning. You were just saying a little over a week ago that the Bulls getting rid of Zach was putting them in the ping pong race. Again, having the most efficient season of your career at 30 years old is great and all but it doesn't change the fact that he has never contributed to winning in his career. For a fun thought experiment, I looked at the numbers for W-L records for Zach Lavine when he plays vs the W-L records of his teams when he is inactive.

Zach Lavine W-L Record When Active:
243-400 (37.8% Win Percentage, 31 win pace average for 82 game season)

Total Team W-L Record With Zach on Roster:
335-531 (38.7% Win Percentage, 32 win pace average for 82 game season)

Team W-L Record When Zach Is Inactive:
92-131 (41.3% Win Percentage, 34 win pace average for 82 game season)

His teams literally perform better when he does not play. When you compare this with someone like Domas who we know does impact winning, his teams have a 54.3% win percentage when he plays vs a 48.6% win percentage when he's inactive. Since you might be curious about Fox, his teams win at a 45.6% win percentage when he plays vs a 45.1% win percentage when he's inactive so he has a mostly neutral impact based off those numbers.

While I understand he doesn't sway things towards winning individually too much, he was targeted for elite efficiency which started this year why monte targeted him and carried into his play here (at least until whatever this is recently)

Hopefully with a more coherent team you at least have a shooter/spacer of the highest scoring efficiency next year, but the imprint of the team needs to be elsewhere and he needs to be a secondary presence