2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V

[BobbieL]

Still have another month until we find out what lottery pick is going to the Rockets. The **** season still aint over.

Very much so

Interesting to see how quickly Ishbia makes moves
Also waiting for the comment from Gambo that "Booker will NOT be traded"

My guess, that will happen first and just kill the offseason. And Book will say something about being "committed to the Valley" as he posts another -32 game kicking back in PV happy to be making 4th team all NBA and earning 55m per year

Just wait until he's making upwards of $70+ million on his supermax scale increase of 8% compounding as the cap increases and we're still at best a treadmilling fringe playin team/ 10-14 range punching bag lottery team.

And we're annually giving up lottery level talent to other teams and helping them get stronger while we suffer and also while Booker's prime passes, his value exponentially diminishes and he gets frustrated and eventually leaves anyways!

I'm sure that'll be a nice consolation for all those Dan's who deluded themselves with the notion of getting to watch Booker waste his best years here as our team prolongs an inevitable 10-15 yr rebuild because we sat and did nothing while letting his trade value rapidly diminish!

Then those same people will complain about how we should've moved him when he had optimal value to avoid this very outcome they previously championed. The irony of being a suns fan!.....lol.

I am not trying to bash Booker when the team is down. I see him for what he is - a very talented scorer of the basketball. But he is for sure a "Robin" and not a "Batman." Luka is a Batman player. The reason he worked well with CP3 as Paul is a leader - he demands a level of detail. And unless you can build the team around him that has an alpha personality -- the team will be wasting a prime opportunity to re-set.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Very much so

Interesting to see how quickly Ishbia makes moves
Also waiting for the comment from Gambo that "Booker will NOT be traded"

My guess, that will happen first and just kill the offseason. And Book will say something about being "committed to the Valley" as he posts another -32 game kicking back in PV happy to be making 4th team all NBA and earning 55m per year

Just wait until he's making upwards of $70+ million on his supermax scale increase of 8% compounding as the cap increases and we're still at best a treadmilling fringe playin team/ 10-14 range punching bag lottery team.

And we're annually giving up lottery level talent to other teams and helping them get stronger while we suffer and also while Booker's prime passes, his value exponentially diminishes and he gets frustrated and eventually leaves anyways!

I'm sure that'll be a nice consolation for all those Dan's who deluded themselves with the notion of getting to watch Booker waste his best years here as our team prolongs an inevitable 10-15 yr rebuild because we sat and did nothing while letting his trade value rapidly diminish!

Then those same people will complain about how we should've moved him when he had optimal value to avoid this very outcome they previously championed. The irony of being a suns fan!.....lol.

I am not trying to bash Booker when the team is down. I see him for what he is - a very talented scorer of the basketball. But he is for sure a "Robin" and not a "Batman." Luka is a Batman player. The reason he worked well with CP3 as Paul is a leader - he demands a level of detail. And unless you can build the team around him that has an alpha personality -- the team will be wasting a prime opportunity to re-set.

I get that!
I'm actually a Booker fan myself. BUT...............

I can fully recognize and accept that he's not that tier 1 A legitimate franchise level superstar capable of leading a team to a Championship. And that although his loyalty is great and admirable. This is just an unnecessary bad outcome situation for BOTH himself and the team involved.

For Booker because he's only wasting his prime years while not really winning anything. Not a championship, not anymore All NBA accolades or any chance of an MVP, etc.

To further compound things, He's damaging his long term legacy and diminishing the overall optics of his value as an elite player amongst his peers, fans, and historically overall by struggling in perennial mediocrity.

As he gets closer to 30 yrs old too, as with all players, he'll crave the opportunity to win a championship towards his legacy! And seeing as how we're nowhere close to achieving that in the next 2-3 yrs, Booker leaving is clearly undeniably inevitable too.

So it's only logical for both to part ways sooner rather than later!

Now for the team aspects, despite Booker's best attributes, he's not close to being an "alpha" superstar or leader that is absolutely critical to fielding a contender or even a highly competitive team either.

So we're basically carrying the highest payroll in NBA history just for the privilege of being a perennial laughingstock and punching bag for the vast majority of the league to bully while treadmilling in extreme mediocrity.

And not really getting any better, but rather slowly decaying into long term irrelevance because we gave up everything we had left for this failed experiment.

Also adding insult to injury by giving up premium lottery talent to our opposition and helping them get stronger so they can beat us down even longer just to say we kept Booker out of loyalty and sentimentality.

And ultimately the causality of this compounds things even more by increasing the length of our inevitable rebuild to well over a decade just to be very disappointing/ mediocre for the moment?

It just makes no sense in any logical calculus for us to continue trying to run things back or reload unless the end goal is to feed some closer closet maschochism fans are harbouring after a lifetime of letdown conditioning! It's absurd to argue against blowing it up using failed logic premise too.

[Frank Lee]

You guys just keep dumping on Book for this mess? What a ‘what have you done for me lately’ crowd. This team was practically sabotaged… and now Book is treated like casual collateral damage to discard for what can only amount to dice rolls and two in the bushes. Besides, there is equal or more chance he’ll increase in value come mid season next yr when teams are really making a push.

So Really ? It’s his fault the maniacal meddler Mat completely screwed the pooch by misjudging the type of personnel needed for Book to thrive? It sure seems like some of you know now exactly what he doesn’t need.

[Frank Lee]

And f your ‘absurdity’ ghost when the end result will be the same regardless, next yr and likely the following. Can’t a remodel occur in phases?

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[BobbieL]

You guys just keep dumping on Book for this mess? What a ‘what have you done for me lately’ crowd. This team was practically sabotaged… and now Book is treated like casual collateral damage to discard for what can only amount to dice rolls and two in the bushes. Besides, there is equal or more chance he’ll increase in value come mid season next yr when teams are really making a push.

So Really ? It’s his fault the maniacal meddler Mat completely screwed the pooch by misjudging the type of personnel needed for Book to thrive? It sure seems like some of you know now exactly what he doesn’t need.

Of course, I still blame Ishbia most of all - first the overpaying for Durant, followed by the terrible trades with Beal and Ayton.

That said, Booker needs an alpha player next to him. I don't think that can happen. If I could see a realistic trade proposal that brings back that player in a Durant trade - I would consider keeping Booker. I just haven't seen a trade that does that. So you spin your wheels trying to make it work, Bookers value goes down, and the pattern will last a long time. You asked how a remodel can happen in phases - well Bookers value can only get worse as he gets older - unless another Ishbia buys a team

Durant and Booker aren't the biggest problems - but they are the most realistic solution.

[SunsRback4Good]

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I’m no numbers expert, but 9 figures are in the billions, correct?

[BobbieL]

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I’m no numbers expert, but 9 figures are in the billions, correct?

100m +

thats still a lot of money

If that dude wanted to come to camp fat, smoke the hookah and drink a keg of beer every day in the offseason, I let him

[Ghost of Kleine]

You guys just keep dumping on Book for this mess? What a ‘what have you done for me lately’ crowd. This team was practically sabotaged… and now Book is treated like casual collateral damage to discard for what can only amount to dice rolls and two in the bushes. Besides, there is equal or more chance he’ll increase in value come mid season next yr when teams are really making a push.

So Really ? It’s his fault the maniacal meddler Mat completely screwed the pooch by misjudging the type of personnel needed for Book to thrive? It sure seems like some of you know now exactly what he doesn’t need.

Booker clearly isn't the core root problem to any of this aside maybe a very small portion in that he waited until the very last weeks of the season to actually start playing dominantly in a manner that had he actually played this way throughout the first 2/3 of the season, then this very likely wouldn't be our outcome! But he was "unbothered" by the regular season until he finally realized that banking wins actually matter because a playoff appearance isn't guaranteed just by virtue of names/ talent on paper!

Again, his loyalty is admirable, but it's completely obvious to most fans (even if not to all) that trying to reload and run things back is an exercise in compounding utter futility that'll only increase the duration of our painful but INEVITABLE rebuild! I mean clearly even with KD and Booker having their healthiest seasons in years, we're a fringe lottery team that can't even make the playoffs, have no cap flexibility, have no assets tore trade (IF we don't trade KD and Booker), and have absolutely ZERO control over the few remaining picks we have left over the next 7 years. And all this time spent spinning our wheels, finishing in the 11-13 range, missing the playoffs, giving up lottery talent only to strengthen other teams, and then taking continual beatdowns by almost every team in the league. Booker will age, and his value will decline each season as he gets closer to the wrong side of 30!

It's asset depreciation at its finest! There's just not a single example throughout NBA history wherein an NBA player got better with age and their value increased as they got older. And with interest to Booker's value and legacy, what is he actually accomplishing towards establishing himself as an all-time great or elite top-tier talent by wasting his best remaining years on a team with no future? Not winning a championship, his overall ranking as an
All-time top 10 status as an ALL TIME is also declining as his ranking falls with every losing season and with the whole "point Book" idiocy. He's absolutely wasting his years here, and he will get frustrated and ask out anyways! Holding onto him due to misplaced sentimentality and being stuck in feelings is pointless and a disservice to him and our team's future viability.

So yes! Ishbia completely destroyed this franchise and in record time, too! But further committing to extreme mediocrity while sabotaging Booker's legacy just to treadmill like this for another 2-3 seasons in epically disappointing fashion and further then extending our painful rebuild that we WILL HAVE TO ENDURE is willful ignorance and the very definition of insanity. Whether people choose to admit this reality or stay in denial won't change our overall trajectory. Again, Ishbia is at fault for sure, and because he sabotaged our future and ability to course correct to such extreme levels, that the reality for us, however unpalatable, "is what it is" that we just don't have any other legitimate options now.

Ultimately, fault no longer matters because owners don't get fired (even if they clearly should)! What's done is done! We have a multi-season sample of this failure, and drastic changes must and will come! And keeping Booker regardless of fault only keeps us stuck in this same position or slightly worse without any legitimate mechanisms for significant correction or improvement!

[Revived]

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#neverforget

[bwgood77]

Taylor Jenkins from Memphis
Now Mike Malone from the Nuggets

I think Malone is a good coach but until the GM is figured out and the roster is truly figured out - not sure the HC is the highest priority 

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Yeah as much as I would love a Jenkins or Malone, if the GM can't build a team that makes sense, is balanced and can be competitive, it's not setting the new coach up for success. The #1 priority this season (higher than moving KD/Beal imo) is to hire a high level GM who values every part of the job (ie not just pushing drafting aside) and is able to make a case to Ishbia that he'll listen to

Yeah, if I am a coach, I much prefer ANY other destination. Unless all they care about it money. But even Charlotte, Washington, etc, those teams have younger guys and picks that will allow them to improve.

And they don't have a crazy owner.

[bwgood77]

We've seen last game of KD in Suns uni. The bigger question is what to do with Bud. He's been a problem. Remember Bol Bol started at some point and now is not getting minutes even in a blow out. Bud couldn't figure out the rotations for a full season whether it's Beal, Dunn or Bol. Nobody was playing hard either probably for multiple reasons, one being the coaching.

Personally I wouldn't fire Budenholzer if we are gonna put a much different roster on the court next year.

He was doing the exact thing when we were 9W-2L at the start of the season.

Budenholzer has a very good reputation around the league and he has had two long periods as a HC before, and both were successful periods for those teams (Hawks and Bucks).

And we aren't talking about someone who was successful 25 years ago like you can say about Doc Rivers.

I am not in love with Budenholzer's coaching style but I don't know if there's anyone better than him available on the market.

We all know that Spo, Popovich and Kerr are the best HCs in the league and it's not even close. None of them are available so the pool after them it's deep and pretty close as a good HCs but not difference makers for their franchises.

Bud's not a bad coach, but he is stuck to his system and wants to play 5 out. He obviously showed his chops in Atlanta and Milwaukee. But you can't turn Nurkic into Lopez or Horford. Book lives in the midrange so having him shoot a higher % of 3s probably hurt his efficiency.

But coaches can only do so much with this group. Bud would be ok if we got a good stretch C and 3 pt shooters who could play defense. But still, I don't care who coaches this team, they will be very luck to even make the play in next year barring our pick being some sort of best rookie ever, if we even keep our pick.

[bwgood77]

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#neverforget

Him and Book called Beal to convince him. Beal talked about it being a reason he decided to come, to hear from them personally.

[Ghost of Kleine]

And f your ‘absurdity’ ghost when the end result will be the same regardless, next yr and likely the following. Can’t a remodel occur in phases?

LOL! I get that you're one of those here stuck in your feelings over this whole disaster, man, and are currently unable to see things objectively or logically for what they are. But obviously, the only end result that will end up the same regardless is if we acquiesce defeat and futility, opting to run things back or try a quick reload around Booker. We've already seen/ experienced the results of the idea you're championing for multiple seasons now. And how has that turned out for us exactly again?? How's our future looking?? remind me of how close we are currently to legitimately competing or even making the playoffs WITH HAVING BOTH KD AND BOOKER NOW!!!

We already have established that this faux pretender superteam can't win a championship, can't even make the playoffs, and is already getting blown out by double digits throughout countless games! And again, that's with both KD and Booker! Yet you and a very few others want to commit to keep experiencing this outcome in perpetuity despite already establishing it being a historically profoundly embarrassing failure! You do understand what the "definition of insanity" is, right, man?

I'm only opting for the most logical decision to try and expedite a quicker rebuild back to relevance rather than wallowing in mediocrity and giving up premium value just to be a punching bag for better teams and push ourselves into a much longer painful rebuild! Honestly, which is a more absurd proposition to promote given the circumstances?

[Slim Charless]

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#neverforget

Him and Book called Beal to convince him. Beal talked about it being a reason he decided to come, to hear from them personally.

So we trade Booker and reload around KD and Beal?

[BobbieL]

And f your ‘absurdity’ ghost when the end result will be the same regardless, next yr and likely the following. Can’t a remodel occur in phases?

LOL! I get that you're one of those here stuck in your feelings over this whole disaster, man, and are currently unable to see things objectively or logically for what they are. But obviously, the only end result that will end up the same regardless is if we acquiesce defeat and futility, opting to run things back or try a quick reload around Booker. We've already seen/ experienced the results of the idea you're championing for multiple seasons now. And how has that turned out for us exactly again?? How's our future looking?? remind me of how close we are currently to legitimately competing or even making the playoffs WITH HAVING BOTH KD AND BOOKER NOW!!!

We already have established that this faux pretender superteam can't win a championship, can't even make the playoffs, and is already getting blown out by double digits throughout countless games! And again, that's with both KD and Booker! Yet you and a very few others want to commit to keep experiencing this outcome in perpetuity despite already establishing it being a historically profoundly embarrassing failure! You do understand what the "definition of insanity" is, right, man?

I'm only opting for the most logical decision to try and expedite a quicker rebuild back to relevance rather than wallowing in mediocrity and giving up premium value just to be a punching bag for better teams and push ourselves into a much longer painful rebuild! Honestly, which is a more absurd proposition to promote given the circumstances?

Your last paragraph is what I think as well. Even Beal - -what would it cost to trade Beal let alone trading Beal for value. So you give up draft picks to get players that you can probably get for the Vet Minimum and not locked in. I am just letting Beal expire in 2027
Even buying him out this summer takes out the chance to possibly trade him in the summer of 2026 as an expiring

[garrick]

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Stupid billionaires when they think they're smarter than everyone else they inevitably learn that just because they're good at businesses doesn't make them competent decision makers in basketball affairs.

The Luka trade will go down as one of the worst trades in NBA history because the Mavs didn't shop around and could have gotten way better deals from other teams and gotten a load of picks and players back in return.

[BobbieL]

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#neverforget

Him and Book called Beal to convince him. Beal talked about it being a reason he decided to come, to hear from them personally.

So we trade Booker and reload around KD and Beal?

For next year, I think the Suns would be a better team keeping Durant, trading Booker, sliding Beal to the 2 guard than
trading Durant, doing something stupid with Beal and trying to build around Booker

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Stupid billionaires when they think they're smarter than everyone else they inevitably learn that just because they're good at businesses doesn't make them competent decision makers in basketball affairs.

The Luka trade will go down as one of the worst trades in NBA history because the Mavs didn't shop around and could have gotten way better deals from other teams and gotten a load of picks and players back in return.

Wait until you see what happens with the Mavs in 2027 if you think this was really stupid or negligent decisions!

[Puff]

You guys just keep dumping on Book for this mess? What a ‘what have you done for me lately’ crowd. This team was practically sabotaged… and now Book is treated like casual collateral damage to discard for what can only amount to dice rolls and two in the bushes. Besides, there is equal or more chance he’ll increase in value come mid season next yr when teams are really making a push.

So Really ? It’s his fault the maniacal meddler Mat completely screwed the pooch by misjudging the type of personnel needed for Book to thrive? It sure seems like some of you know now exactly what he doesn’t need.

Of course, I still blame Ishbia most of all - first the overpaying for Durant, followed by the terrible trades with Beal and Ayton.

That said, Booker needs an alpha player next to him. I don't think that can happen. If I could see a realistic trade proposal that brings back that player in a Durant trade - I would consider keeping Booker. I just haven't seen a trade that does that. So you spin your wheels trying to make it work, Bookers value goes down, and the pattern will last a long time. You asked how a remodel can happen in phases - well Bookers value can only get worse as he gets older - unless another Ishbia buys a team

Durant and Booker aren't the biggest problems - but they are the most realistic solution.

"Durant and Booker aren't the biggest problems - but they are the most realistic solution."

That is a fair statement, but I am very skeptical of what we get back in a trade for either of those guys. We are not going to be gifted an all NBA player or lottery picks that could become an all NBA player. I expect we will get back a raft of:

Grayson Allen's, Royce O'Neale's, Ryan Dunn's to replace them along with poor draft picks. I hope like everyone else that we get back some legit starters along with a raft of draft picks that can get us excited again. I do not trust Ishbia to make the correct decisions, and I doubt any of the other owners are going to give away the farm for either KD or Book. I am all in if they do.

I just remember how James Jones was given great credit for the players he brought in for the 23/24 season and again for the 24/25 season. How it was just great that we got rid of Ayton it gave us all this great flexibility. The lucrative contracts we handed out to Grayson Allen and Royce O'Neale were pure genius. Why, we could move them down the road for a piece that we needed. What team would want either of those guys. I know GOK and the fantasy minds on this board will dream up some scenario. It ain't happening. We are stuck with both of them along with KD, Book and Beal.

However, if you remember Matt's original comments when acquiring KD regarding the risk of dumping all our draft picks, he said that we would have money to spend in free agency after KD's, Beal's and Book's contracts end.

That is why I see it going one of two ways. We either trade KD, Beale and Book (Matt reportedly will not trade Book) or we will extend KD while keeping Book and dumping Beal while adding better pieces and a new head coach.

I expect our answers to which way we are headed will have to wait until just before that NBA draft.

I do expect Bud to be fired just after our last game, why wait. If we are going to fire Jones, that needs to happen at the same time. That will give our new Coach and GM a chance to put a plan together prior to the draft, if Ish will allow it.