Patrick Williams is having his worst year

[WindyCityBorn]

Weight isn't the issue, lack of motor and handle are what kill his game.

Weight is in issue. He’s not even a plus athlete anymore.

[ImSlower]

I complained about this in many gameday threads, but I watched Williams jump for a dunk, layup, or block attempt dozens of times this season when he clearly thought his body would be much higher. I don't remember what his vertical was from draft time, but I would wager a significant amount of my paltry income that he's lost a full foot from it.

Which would be fine, if he elevated his technique like Paul Pierce etc as he slowed down. Except the dude's not even close to 30, and he's just too damn stupid or stubborn to realize that when he jumps for a routine dunk, he can't actually get any lift now because he's 30 pounds overweight.

[Dez]

Weight isn't the issue, lack of motor and handle are what kill his game.

Weight is in issue. He’s not even a plus athlete anymore.

Being 20lbs lighter isn't fixing his lack of handle or motor.

[DASMACKDOWN]

The only way for him to even salvage anything from this season, is if he were to ball out in the play in and get us to the playoffs. Then in the playoffs ball out causing is to steal a few games in the playoffs.

It wouldn't completely absolve his dreadful season, but give us fans a little encouragement going into next season.

[dougthonus]

Weight isn't the issue, lack of motor and handle are what kill his game.

Weight is in issue. He’s not even a plus athlete anymore.

Being 20lbs lighter isn't fixing his lack of handle or motor.

He could be a good 3&D player without a handle and be worthy of his contract. Getting back to his rookie levels of athleticism would help him quite a bit in that defensive part of that 3&D. It won't solve his low motor problems in a lot of situations because he simply has bad instincts and doesn't know what to do, but it would make him a lot stronger in more obvious situations where what to do is clear (like POA defense).

[sco]

I complained about this in many gameday threads, but I watched Williams jump for a dunk, layup, or block attempt dozens of times this season when he clearly thought his body would be much higher. I don't remember what his vertical was from draft time, but I would wager a significant amount of my paltry income that he's lost a full foot from it.

Which would be fine, if he elevated his technique like Paul Pierce etc as he slowed down. Except the dude's not even close to 30, and he's just too damn stupid or stubborn to realize that when he jumps for a routine dunk, he can't actually get any lift now because he's 30 pounds overweight.

I was with you on the weight thing up until this week when there was a post-game video posted of Pat without his shirt and dude was shredded with a full six-pack. He may be too heavy from a muscle perspective, but he looks like he has done a really good job of losing any fat that he gained in the offseason with his injury.

On other comments about his being worse than his rookie year. I see truth in those comments. Here's my take. He came into the league with a set of tools like good defense, a 3-ball, a floater and a push shot that were all pretty good, and he had a fair amount of success. IMO, our staff looked has his physique and tools and said "you need to be more aggressive offensively". And look, I thought the same thing, so I can only blame them so much. In his 2nd/3rd seasons, he started focusing on attacking the rim, but the league caught on and are effective at stopping straight-line drivers. He started picking up offensive fouls and committing TO's. I think he developed the yips when it comes to attacking the rim. He, for some reason (although a couple of offseasons of non-development due to injuries couldn't have helped) trying to use in and out dribbles on his attacks to try to get around guys who know where is going, which only exacerbated the TO issues. And now we're here. I think the staff is afraid to say "hey all that stuff we said about being aggressive...nevermind" or maybe they did say it and it crush him mentally. And you have a guy who doesn't know what his game is. My thought is what we view as being slow may be just a guy who is indecisive or not confident.

I still think his game is salvageable (probably elsewhere), but first of all, he needs to stop attacking the rim. He would really benefit from Johnny-dribbles which I think would not only help his handles, but also help him with shots that flow out of the dribbling. I am a fan of him going back to push shots and floaters too.

[Jcool0]

Weight is in issue. He’s not even a plus athlete anymore.

Being 20lbs lighter isn't fixing his lack of handle or motor.

He could be a good 3&D player without a handle and be worthy of his contract. Getting back to his rookie levels of athleticism would help him quite a bit in that defensive part of that 3&D. It won't solve his low motor problems in a lot of situations because he simply has bad instincts and doesn't know what to do, but it would make him a lot stronger in more obvious situations where what to do is clear (like POA defense).

Can you be a 3-D guy if you play below average D and in his best year was 133rd in 3PA? I feel like he was labeled a 3-D guy because Bulls fans weren't ready to say bust.

[Ice Man]

The only way for him to even salvage anything from this season, is if he were to ball out in the play in and get us to the playoffs. Then in the playoffs ball out causing is to steal a few games in the playoffs.

Patrick Williams ranks 22nd among the 22 players that have worn a Bulls uniform this year for Win Shares per 48 minutes, and 21st in BPM. I have no idea why he would be on the court once the post-season starts.*

* Yes, I know that he will be, but my statement stands.

[Hangtime84]

The only way for him to even salvage anything from this season, is if he were to ball out in the play in and get us to the playoffs. Then in the playoffs ball out causing is to steal a few games in the playoffs.

Patrick Williams ranks 22nd among the 22 players that have worn a Bulls uniform this year for Win Shares per 48 minutes, and 21st in BPM. I have no idea why he would be on the court once the post-season starts.*

* Yes, I know that he will be, but my statement stands.

I am happy about this. I'm still on team get that lotto pick.

[dougthonus]

Can you be a 3-D guy if you play below average D and in his best year was 133rd in 3PA? I feel like he was labeled a 3-D guy because Bulls fans weren't ready to say bust.

I think you can be a 3&D player if you shoot 40% from three and play above average defense and can defend 3 positions. I'm not saying Pat will do all of that consistently, but we have seen all the pieces for him to do that. It isn't based on any massive improvement, just getting back into better shape and start working on things that fit that role vs all the stuff of trying to expand him into something he isn't.

He wouldn't be an elite 3&D guy without increasing his release speed to get the volume up (as you point out) and needs to be more consistent defensively for sure, but he could still pretty easily be a rotation player. That would be a step up from this year.

[Jcool0]

Can you be a 3-D guy if you play below average D and in his best year was 133rd in 3PA? I feel like he was labeled a 3-D guy because Bulls fans weren't ready to say bust.

I think you can be a 3&D player if you shoot 40% from three and play above average defense and can defend 3 positions. I'm not saying Pat will do all of that consistently, but we have seen all the pieces for him to do that. It isn't based on any massive improvement, just getting back into better shape and start working on things that fit that role vs all the stuff of trying to expand him into something he isn't.

He wouldn't be an elite 3&D guy without increasing his release speed to get the volume up (as you point out) and needs to be more consistent defensively for sure, but he could still pretty easily be a rotation player. That would be a step up from this year.

His D has always been the most overrated thing about him. He really hasn't been able to guard any position well in the NBA. IMO he has been a 100% bust since day one. The expectations were he was supposed to be the piece to allow the Bulls to contend. I guess good for him he is still an NBA player being able to hit at 3s at good percentage for most of his early career. But also wasn't playing D well enough to make up for the low attempts. When Bridges was the premier 3-D player for the Suns he was peaking at 4.4 3PA but he was also considered one of the best wing defenders in the NBA culminating with a 2nd place DPOY finish in his final full year there. Sure Williams can be a 8th man on an NBA team but that is a pretty bad outcome for a 4th pick.

[kodo]

His D has always been the most overrated thing about him.

^ This.

Mid-size Forward Defenders by EPM:
Ausar Thompson: +3.2
Dyson Daniels: +2.4
Scottie Barnes: +2.1
DFS: +1.6
Thybulle: +1.5
McDaniels: +1.4
Herb Jones: +1.0
Okoro: +0.7
PJ Washington: +0.4
Hachimura: +0.3
Royce O'Neal: 0
Bogdanovic: -0.4
RJ Barret: -0.5
Patrick Williams: -0.5
Kyle Kuzma: -0.6

We have several Bulls ahead of him on DEPM like Lonzo +1.4 and Giddey: -0.2.
He's too slow to guard well out on the perimeter. We had to defend for 6 seconds vs LA and Austin Reaves just walked by him like he was a chair to score in 1 second. He's not long or explosive enough to contest at the rim like Buzelis.

He's not a 3&D player, he's a 3P shooter. Just doesn't score much. The most realistic hope for Patrick to regain value is for him to get back up to 40% 3P, which is very valuable even on low volume. But you really can't put him on any player in the NBA and expect him to stop them.

[Indomitable]

His D has always been the most overrated thing about him.

^ This.

Mid-size Forward Defenders by EPM:
Ausar Thompson: +3.2
Dyson Daniels: +2.4
Scottie Barnes: +2.1
DFS: +1.6
Thybulle: +1.5
McDaniels: +1.4
Herb Jones: +1.0
Okoro: +0.7
PJ Washington: +0.4
Hachimura: +0.3
Royce O'Neal: 0
Bogdanovic: -0.4
RJ Barret: -0.5
Patrick Williams: -0.5
Kyle Kuzma: -0.6

We have several Bulls ahead of him on DEPM like Lonzo +1.4 and Giddey: -0.2.
He's too slow to guard well out on the perimeter. We had to defend for 6 seconds vs LA and Austin Reaves just walked by him like he was a chair to score in 1 second. He's not long or explosive enough to contest at the rim like Buzelis.

He's not a 3&D player, he's a 3P shooter. Just doesn't score much. The most realistic hope for Patrick to regain value is for him to get back up to 40% 3P, which is very valuable even on low volume. But you really can't put him on any player in the NBA and expect him to stop them.

Pat is whom he shown himself to be.

[Indomitable]

Weight isn't the issue, lack of motor and handle are what kill his game.

Weight is in issue. He’s not even a plus athlete anymore.

He put on bad weight and it shows. He stiff like a bodybuilder.

[GoBlue72391]

His D has always been the most overrated thing about him.

^ This.

Mid-size Forward Defenders by EPM:
Ausar Thompson: +3.2
Dyson Daniels: +2.4
Scottie Barnes: +2.1
DFS: +1.6
Thybulle: +1.5
McDaniels: +1.4
Herb Jones: +1.0
Okoro: +0.7
PJ Washington: +0.4
Hachimura: +0.3
Royce O'Neal: 0
Bogdanovic: -0.4
RJ Barret: -0.5
Patrick Williams: -0.5
Kyle Kuzma: -0.6

We have several Bulls ahead of him on DEPM like Lonzo +1.4 and Giddey: -0.2.
He's too slow to guard well out on the perimeter. We had to defend for 6 seconds vs LA and Austin Reaves just walked by him like he was a chair to score in 1 second. He's not long or explosive enough to contest at the rim like Buzelis.

He's not a 3&D player, he's a 3P shooter. Just doesn't score much. The most realistic hope for Patrick to regain value is for him to get back up to 40% 3P, which is very valuable even on low volume. But you really can't put him on any player in the NBA and expect him to stop them.

He was a solid defender for sure, but I was always of the opinion that his defense was extremely overrated by his former large group of believers. I've seen a lot of great defenders in my time watching basketball, but something was always off when people were insisting he's a great defender. The eye test didn't match the claims.

Everything else he did was so lackluster that creating the narrative that he's a great defender would make it seem like he's actually providing value to the team and it's a claim that's a lot harder to refute given how stats don't do a good job of reflecting defense.

Not that I think they knowingly did that. I mean, the organization literally gave Pat the responsibility of guarding the opposing team's best player from day 1 and Stacey and Adam were pounding the "He's an elite defender" drum of propaganda so hard that a lot of us fell for it.

This was a very unpopular opinion for a long time so I generally kept it to myself, but now that everyone has given up on him and knows he sucks it's time to discuss it.

[GoBlue72391]

Why do we keep sweating him? Think back to that 2020 draft and tell me who in it after #4 was worth the pick given the roster construction at the time.

Halliburton and Avdija possibly Vassell are the only other picks that possibly would’ve made sense at the time but I feel like drafting PAW was the swing that if you hit on it you’re set for the next roster wave which was life after Lavine/DDR which we are in now.

For all the flack and criticism he takes on this board he’s still probably top 6 in that draft and was drafted at #4 which when you look at it isn't that bad.

Absolutely deranged take. He's not even the best player from his draft class on this Bulls roster.

[GoBlue72391]

Weight isn't the issue, lack of motor and handle are what kill his game.

It's all of these things and more.

[Jcool0]

He's not a 3&D player, he's a 3P shooter. Just doesn't score much. The most realistic hope for Patrick to regain value is for him to get back up to 40% 3P, which is very valuable even on low volume. But you really can't put him on any player in the NBA and expect him to stop them.

Its valuable when you have a plus defender to go along with it and its valuable if hes doing it in 20 MPG. When he was a 30+ MPG guy averaging 10 points (40% on 3.4 3PA) its not nothing but as we saw here wasn't leading to much.

[GoBlue72391]

I complained about this in many gameday threads, but I watched Williams jump for a dunk, layup, or block attempt dozens of times this season when he clearly thought his body would be much higher. I don't remember what his vertical was from draft time, but I would wager a significant amount of my paltry income that he's lost a full foot from it.

Which would be fine, if he elevated his technique like Paul Pierce etc as he slowed down. Except the dude's not even close to 30, and he's just too damn stupid or stubborn to realize that when he jumps for a routine dunk, he can't actually get any lift now because he's 30 pounds overweight.

I'm pretty sure he did not partake in the vert during the combine so his true vert has never been known, which is a red flag itself, but I'd wager a guess it's roughly 28-32 inches, tops, and was probably 34-36 or so as a rookie.

[GoBlue72391]

Weight isn't the issue, lack of motor and handle are what kill his game.

Weight is in issue. He’s not even a plus athlete anymore.

Being 20lbs lighter isn't fixing his lack of handle or motor.

No, but it would help those flat tires of his. He can barely get up high enough to consistently dunk. That wasn't an issue as a rookie.

He went from 215 to 238 or whatever the number was. That's plenty enough weight gain to sap someone's athleticism, especially one who wasn't overly athletic to begin with.