lessthanjake wrote:eminence wrote:So I've seen some love for Russell/Wilt/KAJ/Duncan in this thread (Duncan may just have been me...). Anybody else folks would support? I think I see a couple of serious Mikan notes.
Any Magic takers?
I’m not really a Magic taker, but I do find him intriguing in this regard. We don’t have a whole lot of data from his era, but he does look really good in the RAPM snippets we do have, as well in the WOWYR type of stuff. And moving away from numbers, he certainly does feel like a top-tier candidate for best offensive player ever, which has to potentially put him in a GOAT discussion if he’s not a liability on defense (which is the case for someone like Nash, who is in the best-offensive-player discussion but not the GOAT discussion). He also has some fantastic team success (5 titles,
3 other trips to the Finals, and I believe the highest winning percentage in history), which is necessary to be in the conversation.
I feel like it’s possible that if we had full impact data from Magic’s era, we might well see his data and think he’s a real GOAT candidate. As it is, though, the RAPM snippets we have (primarily from Squared) fall a little short of Jordan (albeit close enough that it doesn’t preclude Magic having a case), his 5 titles are just below Jordan, his longevity is below pretty much every GOAT candidate (though his lack of longevity is not due to a decline in his basketball skills), and it’s undeniably true that he benefited from having incredibly talented teams and being in a relatively weak conference. He also just wasn’t quite seen at the GOAT level contemporaneously. On balance, it’s just hard for me to really get there for Magic, but I do think he’s intriguing because he’s a guy where I really wouldn’t be surprised if he’d look like a real GOAT candidate if we had more data.
Four other trips to the Finals, actually.
I agree with you though. I am extremely high on Magic for all the reasons you state, but I don't think he's a GOAT candidate. For the record, like I said earlier in the thread, as an era-relativist, my top 4 is Russell/Jordan/LeBron/Mikan. I typically put Kareem at #5, but because I'm so high on Magic, I'd listen to arguments for him as high as #5 too, for all the reasons you stated, plus:
1. The impact signal of how hard and how fast the Lakers fell off after he retired in 1991.
2. The sheer consistency in both his sparkling individual numbers and team success over the course of over a decade.
But I think the reason I'd struggle to put him higher than #5 is that my top four guys were all two-way players in a way that Magic was not.
Also, I think a lot might depend on how you parse those Showtime titles in terms of who was #1/#2/#1A/#1B between Magic/Kareem for each of those titles.
. At best Lebron is top 5. Though you certainly can make arguments for Shaq/Duncan as well over him. Shaq more dominant/Duncan with an extra chip
