GT: Knicks @ Detroit , Game 6 Thursday 7:30pm ET

[Jeff Van Gully]

Chanel turning on Brunson is nasty work.

this brother gets it.

this is what they want us to do.

[JayTWill]

Jalen Brunson has been disappointing this year?

You don't find the timing of his return (and the subsequent ankle problems) suspicious? For me it's obvious he returned in time to be eligible for All-NBA honors, and possibly at the expense of a full recovery.

His defense has also slipped this year to the point where he's undoubtedly one of the worst defenders in the NBA.

He also has not adjusted his game for sustained periods to get the best out of KAT and the players around him.

He's a fantastic offensive player and a warrior, and we're lucky to have him. But yes, I do think he's had a disappointing season.

Melo got a lot of flack (arguably a disproportionate amount) for the same issues (except Brunson doesn't lack in leadership), and while I think Melo's harshest critics took it way too far back in the day, I don't see any reason why Brunson should be spared any form of critique, just like Melo deserved to be fairly critiqued.

Brunson definitely has his flaws but we knew he had these flaws before. He has been a poor defensive small scoring guard. I'm not sure why anyone would expect him to be something else this year. I don't know if he is any worse defensively this year or his flaws defensively are highlighted with KAT replacing iHart.

[kNicksGmen]

only way thibs makes a lineup adjustment is to start 2nd half of game 7 if knicks are down big.

a lineup change isn't even necessary as much as changing up the rotation. just bring in mitch or deuce in a lot earlier than normal. maybe actually give shamet a change to run with the starters (instead of the cam/deuce/kat 2nd unit) etc. lots of different things could be tried but with this coach it's not happening. precious could get some burn off the bench if you go to mitch early (just don't play mitch and kat together, ideally not hart and precious either)

[TheGreenArrow]

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He Absolutely nailed the biggest issue with thibs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TKKnicks1]

Been a die hard fan since the early 90s and this is the first time I find myself hating on my team and it's the best talent we have had in forever. FO set us up for success but the coach has set us up for failure. It's just a horrible fit and it's so infuriating that the only way to portray the frustration is to start hating. It's a damn shame because we are so much better than what is being put out there nightly.

[Guano]

Chanel turning on Brunson is nasty work.

Knew it when he planted the seeds when he said KAT is the team's best player

Makes it even worse.

[GONYK]

Jalen Brunson has been disappointing this year?

You don't find the timing of his return (and the subsequent ankle problems) suspicious? For me it's obvious he returned in time to be eligible for All-NBA honors, and possibly at the expense of a full recovery.

Suspicious? No. No doubt he wanted to be back in time for his awards, but he also needed games to ramp up for the playoffs. It made practical sense as much as it did personal sense.

His defense has also slipped this year to the point where he's undoubtedly one of the worst defenders in the NBA.

You can say this about the entire team, no? Brunson is certainly not a defender who will elevate above the team structure, but let's not pretend he's incapable or hasn't had defensive moments this season.

He also has not adjusted his game for sustained periods to get the best out of KAT and the players around him.

I don't think this is true either. FGAs are down, USG% is down, APG is up. None of the players around him are creators and we don't run a heavy motion offense. KAT doesn't set consistently strong screens. There's a lot that goes into stirring the drink but none of it happens without Brunson.

He's a fantastic offensive player and a warrior, and we're lucky to have him. But yes, I do think he's had a disappointing season.

Melo got a lot of flack (arguably a disproportionate amount) for the same issues (except Brunson doesn't lack in leadership), and while I think Melo's harshest critics took it way too far back in the day, I don't see any reason why Brunson should be spared any form of critique, just like Melo deserved to be fairly critiqued.

The critique is Brunson had a bad year when it was trending to be the most efficient year of his career before his injury, the highest assist rate of his career, he was the entire clutch offense for the Knicks and he has had significant clutch play and game saving performances this very series.

This all seems like a victim of the moment critique. We'd maybe be a 35-40 win team without him.

The critique that he's had a down year can be made. I just don't buy that his character fundamentally changed from one season to the next, and that whatever slippage you observe is from him valuing anything over winning. Same for pretty much everyone else on the team, save for some clear moments from a select few.

[Guano]

guys in the spirit of nuanced basketball discussion we gotta be able to point out elements of the brunson era that should be tweaked or addressed because we want to maximize the potential of our window built around him

You lost me at nuanced basketball discussion.

Horrible use of the english language. Those words put together sound terrible. Putting a shutgun to the back of joys head. And the biggest issues is it's just nitpicking a baddie. Which is lame sht.

[Jeff Van Gully]

guys in the spirit of nuanced basketball discussion we gotta be able to point out elements of the brunson era that should be tweaked or addressed because we want to maximize the potential of our window built around him

You lost me at nuanced basketball discussion.

Horrible use of the english language. Those words put together sound terrible. Putting a shutgun to the back of joys head. And the biggest issues is it's just nitpicking a baddie. Which is lame sht.

all jokes aside, we really should be able to do this.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Read on Twitter

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He Absolutely nailed the biggest issue with thibs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

benji was spitting. and i don't hide my macriness on the subject.

but this is not how the conversations go here.

[TheGreenArrow]

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[Fury]

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And btw, the Pistons have 134 fts this series. The Knicks have 110.

[rajajackal]

guys in the spirit of nuanced basketball discussion we gotta be able to point out elements of the brunson era that should be tweaked or addressed because we want to maximize the potential of our window built around him

You lost me at nuanced basketball discussion.

Horrible use of the english language. Those words put together sound terrible. Putting a shutgun to the back of joys head. And the biggest issues is it's just nitpicking a baddie. Which is lame sht.

generally i agree but as a person i get an itch when anyone's protected or exempt from smoke. only person above the law in my eyes is thegreenarrow and he's done more to earn that than any player on this roster

[TheGreenArrow]

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[The KnicksFix]

I hate thibs more than anything in my Knicks fandom
If they can fire him right away I would celebrate like we won a championship

[Chanel Bomber]

Jalen Brunson has been disappointing this year?

You don't find the timing of his return (and the subsequent ankle problems) suspicious? For me it's obvious he returned in time to be eligible for All-NBA honors, and possibly at the expense of a full recovery.

Suspicious? No. No doubt he wanted to be back in time for his awards, but he also needed games to ramp up for the playoffs. It made practical sense as much as it did personal sense.

His defense has also slipped this year to the point where he's undoubtedly one of the worst defenders in the NBA.

You can say this about the entire team, no? Brunson is certainly not a defender who will elevate above the team structure, but let's not pretend he's incapable or hasn't had defensive moments this season.

He also has not adjusted his game for sustained periods to get the best out of KAT and the players around him.

I don't think this is true either. FGAs are down, USG% is down, APG is up. None of the players around him are creators and we don't run a heavy motion offense. KAT doesn't set consistently strong screens. There's a lot that goes into stirring the drink but none of it happens without Brunson.

He's a fantastic offensive player and a warrior, and we're lucky to have him. But yes, I do think he's had a disappointing season.

Melo got a lot of flack (arguably a disproportionate amount) for the same issues (except Brunson doesn't lack in leadership), and while I think Melo's harshest critics took it way too far back in the day, I don't see any reason why Brunson should be spared any form of critique, just like Melo deserved to be fairly critiqued.

The critique is Brunson had a bad year when it was trending to be the most efficient year of his career before his injury, the highest assist rate of his career, he was the entire clutch offense for the Knicks and he has had significant clutch play and game saving performances this very series.

This all seems like a victim of the moment critique. We'd maybe be a 35-40 win team without him.

The critique that he's had a down year can be made. I just don't buy that his character fundamentally changed from one season to the next, and that whatever slippage you observe is from him valuing anything over winning. Same for pretty much everyone else on the team, save for some clear moments from a select few.

I didn't mean to say he had a bad year. He's clearly a net positive for this team and one of the driving factors behind the team's 50+ win season. He's a legitimate star in the NBA.

Disappointing is relative to expectations - I expected him to be an All-NBA 2nd team type of player, and I find it debatable whether he has played at that level this year. I think he hurts our defense even moreso than KAT (the combination of the two players being hard to manage).

And I do believe he has done an uneven (if not underwhelming) job of sharing the ball and getting the most out of his teammates this year. I did not expect him before the start of the season to be so resistant to feeding KAT, for instance. And while Brunson on his own elevates our offense, I think this fluctuating team-oriented play has prevented the offense from reaching the highs it theoretically could have.

It's not surprising some of those numbers you mentioned went up - the Knicks lost two of their top three playmakers in the offseason. I don't think those numbers in a vacuum support your argument.

As for the return from injury, we can disagree, that's fine. His ankle issues have crept up again fairly rapidly, which to me suggests that it's not out of the realm of possibility he came back too soon. And we know he had an incentive to return when he did. Perhaps I'm wrong and you're right, and the recurring ankle problems are just bad luck.

[GONYK]

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He Absolutely nailed the biggest issue with thibs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

benji was spitting. and i don't hide my macriness on the subject.

but this is not how the conversations go here.

Like I said in the other thread, KAT will be Thibs' undoing for the second time in their careers.

KAT uniquely exposes the shortcomings in Thibs' philosophy because to get the most out of KAT you have to invert everything Thibs believes.

Benjy is absolutely correct in the sense that what separates Thibs from top coaches right now is his willingness to experiment during the season. He knows what he's looking for in practice and doesn't "promote" a player to games until he sees it consistently enough. That can work for a player's development but it is not great for data collection.

We learned nothing from game 1 to now and that is the biggest indictment on Thibs.

[TheGreenArrow]

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[GONYK]

It's not surprising some of those numbers you mentioned went up - the Knicks lost two of their top three playmakers in the offseason. I don't think those numbers in a vacuum support your argument.

I read everything you wrote, but I'm just responding to this because I think it is the most poignant part. Nothing happens in a vacuum, so it is hard for me to say Brunson disappointed relative to expectations when the entire ecosystem that the expectations were set in changed. What you see as underperforming, I see as largely overcoming.

As for the return from injury, we can disagree, that's fine. His ankle issues have crept up again fairly rapidly, which to me suggests that it's not out of the realm of possibility he came back too soon. And we know he had an incentive to return when he did. Perhaps I'm wrong and you're right, and the recurring ankle problems are just bad luck.

My thoughts are if the ankle is hurt, it's hurt. An extra week wouldn't have mattered and using playoff games to adjust to long layoff certainly isn't ideal and would have had it's own repercussions.

[Chanel Bomber]

Read on Twitter

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He Absolutely nailed the biggest issue with thibs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

benji was spitting. and i don't hide my macriness on the subject.

but this is not how the conversations go here.

Like I said in the other thread, KAT will be Thibs' undoing for the second time in their careers.

KAT uniquely exposes the shortcomings in Thibs' philosophy because to get the most out of KAT you have to invert everything Thibs believes.

Benjy is absolutely correct in the sense that what separates Thibs from top coaches right now is his willingness to experiment during the season. He knows what he's looking for in practice and doesn't "promote" a player to games until he sees it consistently enough. That can work for a player's development but it is not great for data collection.

We learned nothing from game 1 to now and that is the biggest indictment on Thibs.

All great points.

I think it's clear at this stage that the front office needs to choose between the roster (especially with KAT at the 5) and the coach. The talent they put together is antithetical to Thibs's philosophy.

The last sentence rings true and is pretty damning.