Official NBA General Discussion 2024-25 V2.0

[Tha Cynic]

Hield basically won this for them by himself. 33 points on 15 shots is going to be too much to overcome for an offensively challenged team like the Rockets.

The Warriors and Rockets were 8 and 9 in offensive rankings this season. They’re not offensively challenged - they don’t have any stars.

[Tha Cynic]

Of course, but the Raptors don't win the 2019 title if FVV isn't on that team. He shot 30/57 from three in the last 9 games of that season while guarding the greatest offensive PG in the history of basketball for most of those.

The fact that this forum regularly goes out of their way to hate on him, a guy who was significantly responsible for winning what will likely be the only Raptors title in our lifetimes, is as much bizarre as it is ridiculous.

People always go off about how he played in those series without talking about how horrible he was the first two, and him being unplayable almost cost us the 2nd round if it wasn’t for kawhi carrying.

Honestly...we should celebrate everyone from that team. Fred made some huge shots against Milwaukee and Golden State.

No need to hate. He's no longer on this team. Leave it at that.

Agreed - he was a good role player.

Role players get hot from time to time and he got hot like we needed. GS probably doesn’t move on if Buddy Hield doesn’t get hot yesterday. We’re not building statues of either guy.

[NinjaBro]

All our problems go away if everyone goes down a knock on the pecking order. We're seeing a similiar issue now with Barnes being tasked with being the primary scorer. He would benefit greatly by playing off another star.

That's why we got Ingram

[billy_hoyle]

The funniest thing about this is you’re wrong as well.

2021 - Jalen Green
2022 - Jabari Smith
2023 - Amen
2024 - Reed Sheppard

It’s okay to tell the truth about a team’s position. Houston doesn’t have any top-end talent despite lots of picks the past 4 years.

Just shows you there are no guarantees.

Also try to calm down a bit.

TBH...they didn't bottom out to get Reed. The pick they used to take Reed was Brooklyn's pick.

Last season the Rockets were actually mediocre finishing 41-41. They had to give their own pick to OKC who took Nikola Topic.

Yep, I was referring to the fact they had 4 lottery picks in a row. What’s even crazier is they had four top 4 picks in a row. And yet their best player is a 16th overall center in Sengun.

They are going to have many more lottery picks in a row.

I think Sengun being their best player is actually fairly emblematic, and why I don't think tanking is nearly as valuable as many on here believe.

SGA, Jokic, Curry/Butler, Siakam/Haliburton, Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brunson.

That's 6 of the remaining 8 teams whose best player wasn't a top 5 pick. 5 of the remaining 8 teams don't even have a top 10 pick as their BEST player.

Isn't that crazy?

[PushDaRock]

Hield basically won this for them by himself. 33 points on 15 shots is going to be too much to overcome for an offensively challenged team like the Rockets.

The Warriors and Rockets were 8 and 9 in offensive rankings this season. They’re not offensively challenged - they don’t have any stars.

No they weren't. You must be pulling Playoff Rankings.

[Tacoma]

The funniest thing about this is you’re wrong as well.

2021 - Jalen Green
2022 - Jabari Smith
2023 - Amen
2024 - Reed Sheppard

It’s okay to tell the truth about a team’s position. Houston doesn’t have any top-end talent despite lots of picks the past 4 years.

Just shows you there are no guarantees.

Also try to calm down a bit.

TBH...they didn't bottom out to get Reed. The pick they used to take Reed was Brooklyn's pick.

Last season the Rockets were actually mediocre finishing 41-41. They had to give their own pick to OKC who took Nikola Topic.

Yep, I was referring to the fact they had 4 lottery picks in a row. What’s even crazier is they had four top 4 picks in a row. And yet their best player is a 16th overall center in Sengun.

Segun played mostly C because HOU otherwise did not have a starting quality C but his natural position is PF which is where he mostly played against GSW. I see Segun to be as good as our best player Scottie Barnes, but I don't see Segun to be their best player.

The player to watch out for is Amen Thompson. He showed determination and steely-eyed intensity in this playoff. This is something I wish Scottie Barnes has but unfortunately Scottie is a tad laid back. It's hard to believe he's still only 20. I see him with top-end All-NBA First Team potential along the lines of someone like a Kevin Garnett.

[Pointgod]

TBH...they didn't bottom out to get Reed. The pick they used to take Reed was Brooklyn's pick.

Last season the Rockets were actually mediocre finishing 41-41. They had to give their own pick to OKC who took Nikola Topic.

Yep, I was referring to the fact they had 4 lottery picks in a row. What’s even crazier is they had four top 4 picks in a row. And yet their best player is a 16th overall center in Sengun.

Segun played mostly C because HOU otherwise did not have a starting quality C but his natural position is PF which is where he mostly played against GSW. I see Segun to be as good as our best player Scottie Barnes, but I don't see Segun to be their best player.

The player to watch out for is Amen Thompson. He showed determination and steely-eyed intensity in this playoff. This is something I wish Scottie Barnes has but unfortunately Scottie is a tad laid back. It's hard to believe he's still only 20. I see him with top-end All-NBA First Team potential along the lines of someone like a Kevin Garnett.

Amen Thompson needs to learn to shoot. If he ever develops a shot he does have all NBA potential on both teams.

[gp2015]

We don't win that Championship without FVV.

Or Kawhi. Or Lowry. Or Siakam. Or Gasol. Or Green. Or....

They all played important roles in winning a team game. Let's leave it at that.

None of those guys get bizarrely hated by a large segment of this forum though.

For me, Fred always seemed like he was just a mercenary who was looking out for himself only and trying to secure his own bag. During the last few seasons here, you could tell he was just playing for his own numbers. That didn't sit well with me.

Compare that to guys like Lowry, Norm, Pascal who all wanted to be here and stated that they wanted to stay here long term.

Guys like Gasol and Green weren't here long enough to make a long lasting affect on the fanbase even though they were generally liked (perhaps outside of Green's playoff performance). I believe that Green did want to stay here but we were going in another direction.

Kawhi was also a mercenary and didn't really want to be here but he kind of gets a pass because he was most responsible for the chip.

It's fine that Fred was just looking for a big pay day but then don't expect fans to love him for that.

[WaltFrazier]

It's been interesting seeing our former players in the playoffs:

FVV had a really nice series against the Warriors and looked like vintage Fred on both sides. Dude's shooting was off all year but no one can deny how critical he was to that 52 win team Rockets.

Siakam is playing like an all-star for a team in the 2nd round and very efficient.

OG playing like the perfect 3+D player.

It's just too bad our team couldn't put it together because we had some great pieces, just didn't mesh well together like we wanted.

I think they meshed well enough but were let down by the front office not surrounding them with better talent. No C till they finally got Jak much too late, no good back-up PG, not enough shooting, and one of the worst benches in the league .

[Tha Cynic]

Hield basically won this for them by himself. 33 points on 15 shots is going to be too much to overcome for an offensively challenged team like the Rockets.

The Warriors and Rockets were 8 and 9 in offensive rankings this season. They’re not offensively challenged - they don’t have any stars.

No they weren't. You must be pulling Playoff Rankings.

You’re right - I realize that was playoff, but the Rockets were 12th in the full regular season and the Warriors were 9th after the trade deadline where they acquired Butler. That’s hardly an offensively challenged team, and not significantly worse than GS.

[NinjaBro]

You’re right - I realize that was playoff, but the Rockets were 12th in the full regular season and the Warriors were 9th after the trade deadline where they acquired Butler. That’s hardly an offensively challenged team, and not significantly worse than GS.

FVV is their offensive coordinator, that's an offensively challenged team right there.

[tsherkin]

The Warriors and Rockets were 8 and 9 in offensive rankings this season. They’re not offensively challenged - they don’t have any stars.

No they weren't. You must be pulling Playoff Rankings.

You’re right - I realize that was playoff, but the Rockets were 12th in the full regular season and the Warriors were 9th after the trade deadline where they acquired Butler. That’s hardly an offensively challenged team, and not significantly worse than GS.

It is worth mentioning that Houston's offensive ranking is rooted almost entirely in leading the league in offensive rebounding and ball protection.

Otherwise, they were 23rd in team eFG% and 26th in FT/FGA. 20th in 3PA, 21st in 3P%, 2nd in 2FGA but 27th in 2P%. DEAD LAST in FT%. They had only 3 guys both play 700+ minutes AND shoot league-average or better inside the arc. Only one did from 3. Sengun, Adams and Amen Thompson were the only guys average or better at drawing fouls with those minutes. Amen Thompson and Aaron Thompson were the only guys who played 700+ minutes and DIDN'T post a negative TSAdd.

Offensively challenged? Yes. Yes, they most certainly were.

[PushDaRock]

The Warriors and Rockets were 8 and 9 in offensive rankings this season. They’re not offensively challenged - they don’t have any stars.

No they weren't. You must be pulling Playoff Rankings.

You’re right - I realize that was playoff, but the Rockets were 12th in the full regular season and the Warriors were 9th after the trade deadline where they acquired Butler. That’s hardly an offensively challenged team, and not significantly worse than GS.

The 21/22 Raptors were 10th in ORTG, would you say they were offensively challenged in the playoffs?

[PushDaRock]

No they weren't. You must be pulling Playoff Rankings.

You’re right - I realize that was playoff, but the Rockets were 12th in the full regular season and the Warriors were 9th after the trade deadline where they acquired Butler. That’s hardly an offensively challenged team, and not significantly worse than GS.

It is worth mentioning that Houston's offensive ranking is rooted almost entirely in leading the league in offensive rebounding and ball protection.

Otherwise, they were 23rd in team eFG% and 26th in FT/FGA. 20th in 3PA, 21st in 3P%, 2nd in 2FGA but 27th in 2P%. DEAD LAST in FT%. They had only 3 guys both play 700+ minutes AND shoot league-average or better inside the arc. Only one did from 3. Sengun, Adams and Amen Thompson were the only guys average or better at drawing fouls with those minutes. Amen Thompson and Aaron Thompson were the only guys who played 700+ minutes and DIDN'T post a negative TSAdd.

Offensively challenged? Yes. Yes, they most certainly were.

Almost a Carbon Copy of our Nurse Ball teams basically

[tsherkin]

Almost a Carbon Copy of our Nurse Ball teams basically

We were much better than that in terms of above-average scorers, but lagged heavily on the O-boards and were better from 3, but yeah. There are similarities. Certainly, as we slowed down and lost Lowry, it worsened. But in 2022, we smashed the O-boards and were starved for efficient scoring, but were also phenomenal at least at getting up a shot instead of directly turning it over. By 2023, we were horrifically useless from 3 (and not taking many of them, relatively), 3rd-worst in the league at hitting shots inside the arc, but still riding hard on possession control while leading the league in offensive TOV%, 3rd in ORB%.

Then we started running the offense more through Scottie, traded Pascal while he was having his best season with us, and everything fell apart, of course. ORB% dropped to 17th, TOV% to 18th, 4th-worst in 3P%, but 18th in 2P%. Mid at FTr, 2nd-worst in the league at hitting the FTs, though.

Destroying our offense was a process, lol.

[mtcan]

We don't win that Championship without FVV.

Or Kawhi. Or Lowry. Or Siakam. Or Gasol. Or Green. Or....

They all played important roles in winning a team game. Let's leave it at that.

None of those guys get bizarrely hated by a large segment of this forum though.

For me, Fred always seemed like he was just a mercenary who was looking out for himself only and trying to secure his own bag. During the last few seasons here, you could tell he was just playing for his own numbers. That didn't sit well with me.

Compare that to guys like Lowry, Norm, Pascal who all wanted to be here and stated that they wanted to stay here long term.

Guys like Gasol and Green weren't here long enough to make a long lasting affect on the fanbase even though they were generally liked (perhaps outside of Green's playoff performance). I believe that Green did want to stay here but we were going in another direction.

Kawhi was also a mercenary and didn't really want to be here but he kind of gets a pass because he was most responsible for the chip.

It's fine that Fred was just looking for a big pay day but then don't expect fans to love him for that.

I blame Nick Nurse. He is a decent tactician. He manages the game well. However...he is a piss poor communicator. He used the media to call out his players. He did not define roles for anyone...so everyone thought they were worthy of calling their own numbers and playing selfishly. We saw the worst of Precious Achiuwa and Chris Boucher who were betting on themselves and taking turns playing iso-ball or taking ill-advised shots. And if you are Fred or OG and you see those dudes going one on four or jacking up bad shots...you're thinking that's what you deserve as well. Remember when Pascal just blew up on the bench and walked back to the locker room during a game? That's an example of poor communication.

None of this happens with Darko. Jury is out on whether he is a good X's and O's coach...but everyone knows their role and plays within it. He is in tune with all his guys from the starters to the 2-way guys. The culture is close knit and family-like because he cares and talks to his guys.

[Brinbe]

None of those guys get bizarrely hated by a large segment of this forum though.

For me, Fred always seemed like he was just a mercenary who was looking out for himself only and trying to secure his own bag. During the last few seasons here, you could tell he was just playing for his own numbers. That didn't sit well with me.

Compare that to guys like Lowry, Norm, Pascal who all wanted to be here and stated that they wanted to stay here long term.

Guys like Gasol and Green weren't here long enough to make a long lasting affect on the fanbase even though they were generally liked (perhaps outside of Green's playoff performance). I believe that Green did want to stay here but we were going in another direction.

Kawhi was also a mercenary and didn't really want to be here but he kind of gets a pass because he was most responsible for the chip.

It's fine that Fred was just looking for a big pay day but then don't expect fans to love him for that.

I blame Nick Nurse. He is a decent tactician. He manages the game well. However...he is a piss poor communicator. He used the media to call out his players. He did not define roles for anyone...so everyone thought they were worthy of calling their own numbers and playing selfishly. We saw the worst of Precious Achiuwa and Chris Boucher who were betting on themselves and taking turns playing iso-ball or taking ill-advised shots. And if you are Fred or OG and you see those dudes going one on four or jacking up bad shots...you're thinking that's what you deserve as well. Remember when Pascal just blew up on the bench and walked back to the locker room during a game? That's an example of poor communication.

None of this happens with Darko. Jury is out on whether he is a good X's and O's coach...but everyone knows their role and plays within it. He is in tune with all his guys from the starters to the 2-way guys. The culture is close knit and family-like because he cares and talks to his guys.

Just like being a boss in any industry. There is a shelf-life on being a hard-ass and running your guys into the ground when your interpersonal skills aren't there.

[wayoftheroad]

Does anyone happen to have any stream links? All the ones I used to go on don't work anymore.
Thanks in advance

[Brinbe]

awful half for bridges. knicks' margin of error is so low that they can't afford him having a bad shooting game

[Boogie!]

Irrelevant to my point (and 3/4 of the roster was also unplayable against the 76ers). They don't win either the Bucks series or the Warriors series if FVV is not on the Raptors that season. Consequently, they don't win the championship without FVV. How much does that bother you?

It bothers me that he has been overhyped. For years I was saying it would be a mistake to build around him, even before the raptors signed him to that long term deal, and everyone was calling me crazy and a troll and an idiot even though I knew he would forever limit the potential of the team expecting him tp carry us. Nick nurse wanted him as a top scoring option shooting such miserable percentages. And the raptors capped out as a middle first round exit team and year after year people keep acting like fvv is this amazing player:leader but he keeps losing in the first round.

So yes, my beef is largely with the fact that I was relentlessly attacked for stating my opinion on who he was as a player, that I feel the need to emphasize that he is still that same player wherever he goes.

Again, this isn’t even to say he’s a bad player. I respect his work ethic, I respect he made something of himself, I respect that he got the contract that he did. But again, he’s still the same player I said he was as a raptor and he’s forever gonna limit the potential of the teams he’s on in the role he’s in. Make him a sixth man on the warriors or something and he’ll be great.

Was he overhyped? I feel like most reasonable posters/fans saw him as a good starter but no one confused him for a superstar. If anything, he was overhated. You say **** like "expected him to carry us" but no one ever expected him. No one WANTED him as a top scoring option either, but people recognized he was a better option than what we had at the time to run the offense.

I also disagree that the team ever was built around FVV OR that any long term deal was a mistake. FVV was underpaid his entire tenure as a Raptor. He never made more than $20~M a year when he was here, and at no point were we "building" around FVV.

You got hated on for being unreasonably negative. While pretty much everyone who "attacked" (lol) you was simply stating he is being asked to do more than he is capable of, it was the anti-FVV brigade that was complaining he was not a #1 option superstar. Anyone who liked the guy pretty much understood his limitations and still was able to see he was a positive player despite it.

And the raptors capped out as a middle first round exit team and year after year people keep acting like fvv is this amazing player:leader but he keeps losing in the first round.

Seems odd to put an entire teams shortcomings on one player who was not the best player on any of these teams.

FVV is certainly a floor raiser and not a ceiling raiser, but he still is a good player. HE is entirely overpaid, but I wouldn't doubt if he signs a deal this year to be a 4th/5th best guy somewhere and starts at PG and is on a good team next year (or maybe he just bag chases again, who knows). But really his Houston stint has proven most of the Raptors board wrong about him and yet here you are with your heels still dragging in the sand unable to admit you were wrong.

I’m not too sure you’re accurately remembering the state of the board during his departure. This board went from **** on me for “hating on him” through over the course of how many years, during his last season here literally the majority of the board starting complaining about him to the point that people posted actual hateful rhetoric towards him worse than I ever did. Calling him a Mdgt etc etc. I never even said **** like that. And here you are still trying to argue with me like I’m the irrational one.

Did you not even read the last paragraph of my post? I addressed everything objectively. He was definitely overhyped because people were expecting him to be the next Lowry, the whole fvv all star campaign, he just signed a max contract 2 years ago. Again and he never gets the blame. Any time your highest paid player is underformint the blame usually falls on him when they lose. Except here everyone is saying Jalen greens fault, Senguns fault. If shai played as poorly as fvv during the series and okc lost, do you think the narrative would be blaming every other role player?

The dynamic surrounding fvv is weird. You want to win with him, bring him off the bench. Simple. People were saying that when he was a raptor and yet the org insisted he be the starter.

What exactly am I wrong about? I’ll admit initially I thought he and delon were in the same tier based on the bench mob roles. Admittedly he took a leap beyond delon. But I was never enamoured with him because his game was limited. I started to fear that they were developing him as Lowrys replacement which they did and I knew the whole time he caps the ceiling, trade him while his value is high, the investment by the organization in him to be the starter was never worth it. It’s not about the dollar amount it’s about the role.