Post Mortem #23 - Cleveland Cavaliers

[axeman23]

That's very generous of Cleveland. What do they get back, though?

The #1 pick in next year's draft.

Too bad it's a pick swap so Cavs wouldn't even be able to keep it, whomp whomp.

Doesn't the swap only apply to our OWN pick? Or can Utah choose the best pick we have in our possession in said year? If they can swap for ANY pick we get through other trades, we can't even improve via the DRAFT until Mobley's contract year. Altman should be fired if that's the case! I thought he should've been fired the day he signed off on the deal, but it gets WORSE, apparently.

[JujitsuFlip]

The #1 pick in next year's draft.

Too bad it's a pick swap so Cavs wouldn't even be able to keep it, whomp whomp.

Doesn't the swap only apply to our OWN pick? Or can Utah choose the best pick we have in our possession in said year? If they can swap for ANY pick we get through other trades, we can't even improve via the DRAFT until Mobley's contract year. Altman should be fired if that's the case! I thought he should've been fired the day he signed off on the deal, but it gets WORSE, apparently.

Well, that's what the poster was hinting/joking at, we trade Mobley to the Lakers then become a lottery team. Then we win the lottery with our own pick. Bc Flagg will be taken with the Mavs own pick. The lone pick the Lakers surrendered for Luka is several years out.

As far as the actual pick swaps, they're very convoluted bc we have traded the picks again, its a double swap. In 2026 and 2028 we get the least favorable of the Jazz, Hawks, and Cavs picks.

[Johnny Tomala]

Keep, keep, better, improving.

[Cavsfansince84]

Overall we're on a good path but it was kind of weird how quickly the wheels fell off in the playoffs. We wasted Mitchell's 48 pt game. We suddenly got banged up after having our starters only avg like 31mpg in the rs. That was the one thing that made me think we'd have a lot of gas to make it through a playoff run but a lot this is just luck with injuries.

[cavs4872]

This team has not had a backup center for three years. No one ever acknowledges this or cares. Why? This is probably why Allen looks like such a scrub in the postseason: cause he gets no damn help.

Maybe if there was someone in there in the paint Siakam would not be strolling to the hole for open drives in Game 5. Indiana is deep at every position; we have too many wings and not enough bigs. We always get guys like Tristan or Robin Lopez who either can't play or coach doesn't put them in anyway.

This is a treadmill team and this is our ceiling, though I would be curious what happens if this massive roster hole is shorn up, especially if it was a big, physical body. We ran it back for three years and this current unit is clearly not winning ****.

[axeman23]

Might be a dumb question, but can we incentivize a vet minimum contract? Would LOVE Steven Adams, but we'd CLEARLY get outbid on monetary terms.

[Iwasawitness]

Might be a dumb question, but can we incentivize a vet minimum contract? Would LOVE Steven Adams, but we'd CLEARLY get outbid on monetary terms.

I think teams in second apron can’t get vet minimum contracts.

[Johnny Bball]

Get rid of Allen for a more versatile player. He should be making Nic Claxton money.

? He's paid less next year, about the same the year after.

[Johnny Bball]

Trade Mobley for Giannis.

Definitely something to consider.

Were I Milwaukee, a trade package involving Mobley could be among the most enticing any team could offer.

For Cleveland, Giannis doesn't just become your best player, but matches up better timeline-wise with Mitchell.

But I would have concerns:

1. I would generally advise all franchises against aging-up their core when they're already a great team. That's what Phoenix did for example, and the result was them fast-forwarding through a young core (Booker/Bridges/Ayton) that could have been a winning team for a decade to end up right back in the lottery a few years later...sans draft capital.

2. As we saw with Giannis-Dame, there should be concerns about pairing Giannis with on-ball volume scorers. At the time it was perhaps reasonable to think that Giannis could learn to be better off-ball like a normal big, but at this point, I think prime Giannis is set in his ways.

Better to take your shot and find out, then FA for 7 years and never come close.

[JujitsuFlip]

Might be a dumb question, but can we incentivize a vet minimum contract? Would LOVE Steven Adams, but we'd CLEARLY get outbid on monetary terms.

I think teams in second apron can’t get vet minimum contracts.

Vet min is pretty much the only vehicle 2nd apron teams have to fill out their roster.

But it's moot because Adams is about to get PAID this summer.

[ConSarnit]

This team has not had a backup center for three years. No one ever acknowledges this or cares. Why? This is probably why Allen looks like such a scrub in the postseason: cause he gets no damn help.

Maybe if there was someone in there in the paint Siakam would not be strolling to the hole for open drives in Game 5. Indiana is deep at every position; we have too many wings and not enough bigs. We always get guys like Tristan or Robin Lopez who either can't play or coach doesn't put them in anyway.

This is a treadmill team and this is our ceiling, though I would be curious what happens if this massive roster hole is shorn up, especially if it was a big, physical body. We ran it back for three years and this current unit is clearly not winning ****.

You shouldn’t need a backup C. You have Allen and Mobley. When Allen is off the floor you just play Mobley at C. The Pacers were fine playing Siakam at C and he’s paired with a negative defensive player in Toppin. Mobley + Wade/Hunter should be a much better defensive pairing than anything the Pacers were throwing out during the non-Turner minutes.

I get the Mobley injury hampered things but this is the 2nd round of the playoffs, these guys should be able to play 35+ mpg. You shouldn’t need to rely on a 3rd string C at this point of the season. Allen/Mobley/Wade (and Hunter) should have been more than adequate to handle the 96 minutes of C/PF. Allen played 30mpg in the Indy series. He can’t handle more than that?

Backup C is very low on the list of the Cavs concerns.

[Iwasawitness]

Might be a dumb question, but can we incentivize a vet minimum contract? Would LOVE Steven Adams, but we'd CLEARLY get outbid on monetary terms.

I think teams in second apron can’t get vet minimum contracts.

Vet min is pretty much the only vehicle 2nd apron teams have to fill out their roster.

But it's moot because Adams is about to get PAID this summer.

Okay so they can use vet min? Got it. I don’t really know what centers we could get for the vet min that could help us…

[Iwasawitness]

This team has not had a backup center for three years. No one ever acknowledges this or cares. Why? This is probably why Allen looks like such a scrub in the postseason: cause he gets no damn help.

Maybe if there was someone in there in the paint Siakam would not be strolling to the hole for open drives in Game 5. Indiana is deep at every position; we have too many wings and not enough bigs. We always get guys like Tristan or Robin Lopez who either can't play or coach doesn't put them in anyway.

This is a treadmill team and this is our ceiling, though I would be curious what happens if this massive roster hole is shorn up, especially if it was a big, physical body. We ran it back for three years and this current unit is clearly not winning ****.

You shouldn’t need a backup C. You have Allen and Mobley. When Allen is off the floor you just play Mobley at C. The Pacers were fine playing Siakam at C and he’s paired with a negative defensive player in Toppin. Mobley + Wade/Hunter should be a much better defensive pairing than anything the Pacers were throwing out during the non-Turner minutes.

I get the Mobley injury hampered things but this is the 2nd round of the playoffs, these guys should be able to play 35+ mpg. You shouldn’t need to rely on a 3rd string C at this point of the season. Allen/Mobley/Wade (and Hunter) should have been more than adequate to handle the 96 minutes of C/PF. Allen played 30mpg in the Indy series. He can’t handle more than that?

Backup C is very low on the list of the Cavs concerns.

lol what? Backup C is arguably the biggest need right now (unless Jerome leaves).

[Doctor MJ]

Trade Mobley for Giannis.

Definitely something to consider.

Were I Milwaukee, a trade package involving Mobley could be among the most enticing any team could offer.

For Cleveland, Giannis doesn't just become your best player, but matches up better timeline-wise with Mitchell.

But I would have concerns:

1. I would generally advise all franchises against aging-up their core when they're already a great team. That's what Phoenix did for example, and the result was them fast-forwarding through a young core (Booker/Bridges/Ayton) that could have been a winning team for a decade to end up right back in the lottery a few years later...sans draft capital.

2. As we saw with Giannis-Dame, there should be concerns about pairing Giannis with on-ball volume scorers. At the time it was perhaps reasonable to think that Giannis could learn to be better off-ball like a normal big, but at this point, I think prime Giannis is set in his ways.

Better to take your shot and find out, then FA for 7 years and never come close.

I feel like Raptor fans might have an aggressive bias here because taking your shot meant getting rid of DeMar DeRozan, which is always a necessary step if you want to contend. None of the Cavs core pieces are as hopeless to me as as DeRozan was, and meanwhile Giannis could start to seriously decay at any point leaving the small market Cavs fast-forwarded to the lottery.

[ConSarnit]

This team has not had a backup center for three years. No one ever acknowledges this or cares. Why? This is probably why Allen looks like such a scrub in the postseason: cause he gets no damn help.

Maybe if there was someone in there in the paint Siakam would not be strolling to the hole for open drives in Game 5. Indiana is deep at every position; we have too many wings and not enough bigs. We always get guys like Tristan or Robin Lopez who either can't play or coach doesn't put them in anyway.

This is a treadmill team and this is our ceiling, though I would be curious what happens if this massive roster hole is shorn up, especially if it was a big, physical body. We ran it back for three years and this current unit is clearly not winning ****.

You shouldn’t need a backup C. You have Allen and Mobley. When Allen is off the floor you just play Mobley at C. The Pacers were fine playing Siakam at C and he’s paired with a negative defensive player in Toppin. Mobley + Wade/Hunter should be a much better defensive pairing than anything the Pacers were throwing out during the non-Turner minutes.

I get the Mobley injury hampered things but this is the 2nd round of the playoffs, these guys should be able to play 35+ mpg. You shouldn’t need to rely on a 3rd string C at this point of the season. Allen/Mobley/Wade (and Hunter) should have been more than adequate to handle the 96 minutes of C/PF. Allen played 30mpg in the Indy series. He can’t handle more than that?

Backup C is very low on the list of the Cavs concerns.

lol what? Backup C is arguably the biggest need right now (unless Jerome leaves).

So you’re pinning this series loss on not having a backup C? You think a vet min C would have been the difference maker?

[JujitsuFlip]

I think teams in second apron can’t get vet minimum contracts.

Vet min is pretty much the only vehicle 2nd apron teams have to fill out their roster.

But it's moot because Adams is about to get PAID this summer.

Okay so they can use vet min? Got it. I don’t really know what centers we could get for the vet min that could help us…

Yeah, probably none. Going to get the RoLo, Ed Davis, Tristan Kardashian typed we've had for the last 4 post seasons.

My idea is use pick #49 on a high floor, low ceiling 5. Diop is obviously never coming over, stop picking projects and start picking older dudes who can have a chance to play some sort of minutes.

[JujitsuFlip]

This team has not had a backup center for three years. No one ever acknowledges this or cares. Why? This is probably why Allen looks like such a scrub in the postseason: cause he gets no damn help.

Maybe if there was someone in there in the paint Siakam would not be strolling to the hole for open drives in Game 5. Indiana is deep at every position; we have too many wings and not enough bigs. We always get guys like Tristan or Robin Lopez who either can't play or coach doesn't put them in anyway.

This is a treadmill team and this is our ceiling, though I would be curious what happens if this massive roster hole is shorn up, especially if it was a big, physical body. We ran it back for three years and this current unit is clearly not winning ****.

You shouldn’t need a backup C. You have Allen and Mobley. When Allen is off the floor you just play Mobley at C. The Pacers were fine playing Siakam at C and he’s paired with a negative defensive player in Toppin. Mobley + Wade/Hunter should be a much better defensive pairing than anything the Pacers were throwing out during the non-Turner minutes.

I get the Mobley injury hampered things but this is the 2nd round of the playoffs, these guys should be able to play 35+ mpg. You shouldn’t need to rely on a 3rd string C at this point of the season. Allen/Mobley/Wade (and Hunter) should have been more than adequate to handle the 96 minutes of C/PF. Allen played 30mpg in the Indy series. He can’t handle more than that?

Backup C is very low on the list of the Cavs concerns.

lol what? Backup C is arguably the biggest need right now (unless Jerome leaves).

I have a similar idea here, Ty is probably gone so Porter Jr will be next man up but he's tiny too. So, i say with pick #58 draft a big athletic PG, again with a high floor and low ceiling. Get a guy who can eat some minutes. No more several year project guys, Cooper was on the Charge for like 2 or 3 seasons.

[Johnny Bball]

Definitely something to consider.

Were I Milwaukee, a trade package involving Mobley could be among the most enticing any team could offer.

For Cleveland, Giannis doesn't just become your best player, but matches up better timeline-wise with Mitchell.

But I would have concerns:

1. I would generally advise all franchises against aging-up their core when they're already a great team. That's what Phoenix did for example, and the result was them fast-forwarding through a young core (Booker/Bridges/Ayton) that could have been a winning team for a decade to end up right back in the lottery a few years later...sans draft capital.

2. As we saw with Giannis-Dame, there should be concerns about pairing Giannis with on-ball volume scorers. At the time it was perhaps reasonable to think that Giannis could learn to be better off-ball like a normal big, but at this point, I think prime Giannis is set in his ways.

Better to take your shot and find out, then FA for 7 years and never come close.

I feel like Raptor fans might have an aggressive bias here because taking your shot meant getting rid of DeMar DeRozan, which is always a necessary step if you want to contend. None of the Cavs core pieces are as hopeless to me as as DeRozan was, and meanwhile Giannis could start to seriously decay at any point leaving the small market Cavs fast-forwarded to the lottery.

They aren't? You say that now.

As for the Phoenix veteran talent plan, that was bad execution. There was no worse version of it except for Brooklyn and Billy King. If they think Giannis isn't the guy, or you do, he's not the only guy out there for you or them. Its not the plan, it's the execution.

[Doctor MJ]

Better to take your shot and find out, then FA for 7 years and never come close.

I feel like Raptor fans might have an aggressive bias here because taking your shot meant getting rid of DeMar DeRozan, which is always a necessary step if you want to contend. None of the Cavs core pieces are as hopeless to me as as DeRozan was, and meanwhile Giannis could start to seriously decay at any point leaving the small market Cavs fast-forwarded to the lottery.

They aren't? You say that now.

As for the Phoenix veteran talent plan, that was bad execution. There was no worse version of it except for Brooklyn and Billy King. If they think Giannis isn't the guy, or you do, he's not the only guy out there for you or them. Its not the plan, it's the execution.

Oh I said DeRozan was hopeless and the Raptors needed to get rid of him well before they got Kawhi. Perimeter players who are don't shoot 3's, aren't good passers, and aren't good defenders are a recipe for non-contention.

I have more hope for these Cavs than I had for DeRozan because I consider DeRozan to be uniquely hopeless.

Re: Phoenix problem wasn't the plan, it was the execution. I mean, I'm not sure what the plan was separate from the execution. When you acquire superstars, you generally have to give up assets which means you give up depth. There were more problems in Phoenix than the lack of depth of course, but that was mostly because the stars they got had baggage - and baggage that was understood before they were acquired.

I guess then if you're saying it wouldn't be the same because Giannis has a good attitude, cool, but that good attitude didn't allow him to find synergy with another player who likes to play on ball in Dame, and so there should be concerns about why it would be different with Mitchell.

[Johnny Bball]

I feel like Raptor fans might have an aggressive bias here because taking your shot meant getting rid of DeMar DeRozan, which is always a necessary step if you want to contend. None of the Cavs core pieces are as hopeless to me as as DeRozan was, and meanwhile Giannis could start to seriously decay at any point leaving the small market Cavs fast-forwarded to the lottery.

They aren't? You say that now.

As for the Phoenix veteran talent plan, that was bad execution. There was no worse version of it except for Brooklyn and Billy King. If they think Giannis isn't the guy, or you do, he's not the only guy out there for you or them. Its not the plan, it's the execution.

Oh I said DeRozan was hopeless and the Raptors needed to get rid of him well before they got Kawhi. Perimeter players who are don't shoot 3's, aren't good passers, and aren't good defenders are a recipe for non-contention.

I have more hope for these Cavs than I had for DeRozan because I consider DeRozan to be uniquely hopeless.

If you're entire intent is to change the subject just to piss on DeRozan, do it with someone else. Not being able to win is not being able to win.