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2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1

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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1901 » by greg4012 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 4:21 pm

3ammy3uck3ts wrote:
greg4012 wrote:
3ammy3uck3ts wrote:
Because of the 1.3 PPG difference?


Aside from actually watching it all unfold and knowing that Bam was crucial to everything Miami was doing (defensive end always somehow going underappreciated), every advanced stat tells a story of Bam's impact clearing.

Both of Miami's recent finals runs were complete team efforts with everyone in the pecking order standing up to their duty and exceeding in crucial moments.


Exactly and not even trying to knock Dragic but we don’t have to go back and try to rewrite history and pretend Bam wasn’t our 2nd best player. Idk what it is with this fanbase and wanting to diminish everything he’s ever done in a Heat jersey but that was the 2nd time I’ve seen someone say Dragic was better that year in the last few weeks so I dug into it and it very clearly was not the case. Dragic absolutely was our 3rd best player though.


Aesthetics above all
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1902 » by carnageta » Sat Jun 14, 2025 4:25 pm

Neither Dragic nor Bam were our second best players in 2019/2020. Jimmy Butler was our second best player.

Have we all forgotten who carried us to the finals that year?



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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1903 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat Jun 14, 2025 4:29 pm

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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1904 » by fincane30 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 4:30 pm

3ammy3uck3ts wrote:
fincane30 wrote:
3ammy3uck3ts wrote:
Love Dragic, he wasn’t better than Bam in 2020 lol. I agree with your other points on injury though, they definitely played a factor


He was in the bubble


Because of the 1.3 PPG difference?


Because he was a second creator and scorer and in several games per series was our best offensive player. Goran going into the Finals was averaging 2 points per game more than Jimmy was. Dragic was just over 20. Got hurt in game 1 and wasn't himself in game 6. It hurt his numbers. 7 games in the East playoffs Butler didn't hit 20 pts. In the clincher against Indiana he scored 6 points and Dragic scored 23. His legend was built in Game 3 and Game 5 against the Lakers. Jimmy was our best player but he was not our most consistent scorer leading up the Finals. Bam has the great block in Game 1 against Boston. We don't win games 1 and 2 without Dragic's 29 7 4 and 25 3 5 statlines
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1905 » by fincane30 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 4:37 pm

There is a reason no one here is suggesting we should be on the trade market looking for another Bam type and we're all desperate for another big time scorer. As important as Bam is no one is saying we should be in the hunt for a defense first superstar. Or tanking in hopes that the next Rudy Gobert/Draymond/Bam is available in the 2026 draft.
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1906 » by MettaWorldPanda » Sat Jun 14, 2025 4:45 pm

All the Heat haters in the media will be out in full force trying to sabotage this deal like they did with Lillard. They will do everything to say the Wolves or anyone else have better offers. They will totally disregard the financial freedom, young players, and picks we can offer. They will say how awful Jovic and JJJ are and insist we need to include Ware. Be prepared to see them throw the house at us.
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1907 » by MettaWorldPanda » Sat Jun 14, 2025 4:52 pm

Nobody whined for us when all we got was Wiggins and the 20th pick. No young players involved. How come when it comes to us we have to give up every living asset on our roster. If we were going after Butler right now the media would be saying we would have to give up Ware and all our first borns.
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1908 » by SA37 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 4:54 pm

greg4012 wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:Holding firm on no Ware. Good work.

You cant create an imbalance to add a 37 year old KD. We need everything Ware possesses to win a chip with Durant.


Agreed. Any false narratives of "I can't believe Heat fans think Ware is better or going to be better than current KD" are bad faith arguments.


How so?

Miami is looking for a star, so why hold on to a piece that may or may not pan out over a guy you already know is a star? That's going to be at the heart of any assessment.

Again, who is more replaceable, Ware or KD? KD.

Miami could sign Steven Adams, Brook Lopez, Myles Turner, Clint Capela, Larry Nance Jr...etc and get similar production -- or better -- to what Ware is likely to provide in the next 2-3 years (without the upside, of course).

There is only one KD.
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1909 » by Beenie » Sat Jun 14, 2025 4:59 pm

MettaWorldPanda wrote:Nobody whined for us when all we got was Wiggins and the 20th pick. No young players involved. How come when it comes to us we have to give up every living asset on our roster. If we were going after Butler right now the media would be saying we would have to give up Ware and all our first borns.


Maybe not directly but since the trade, there have been several calls from the mainstream media for Mia to blow it up which effectively is a condemnation of the trade for Mia

Not to mention how they constantly celebrated GS' success post trade
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1910 » by greg4012 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:07 pm

SA37 wrote:
greg4012 wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:Holding firm on no Ware. Good work.

You cant create an imbalance to add a 37 year old KD. We need everything Ware possesses to win a chip with Durant.


Agreed. Any false narratives of "I can't believe Heat fans think Ware is better or going to be better than current KD" are bad faith arguments.


How so?

Miami is looking for a star, so why hold on to a piece that may or may not pan out over a guy you already know is a star? That's going to be at the heart of any assessment.

Again, who is more replaceable, Ware or KD? KD.

Miami could sign Steven Adams, Brook Lopez, Myles Turner, Clint Capela, Larry Nance Jr...etc and get similar production -- or better -- to what Ware is likely to provide in the next 2-3 years (without the upside, of course).

There is only one KD.


Miami fans have spent how long talking about acquiring a floor spacing/rim protecting center as if that’s an easily acquirable piece? 10 years? More?

You named some truly subpar players, some of which are nothing more than backup centers on their last legs. Let’s be real here. There’s no reasonable means to acquire Myles Turner. Quick runthru those names:

Myles Turner - going to be re-signed by Indy for a BAG. 0% chance
Steven Adams - averaged 13 mpg this season (4 ppg, 5 rpg, 1 apg, 0.5 bpg, 0 3pa per game); will be 32 years old
Brook Lopez - will be 37 years old; averaged 13 ppg, 5 rpg (yikes), 1.8 apg, 1.9 bpg (nice), 4.7 3pa per game. Basically banking on one decent season in a part time role before he turns to complete dust
Clint Capela - becoming a part time player due to losing athleticism. 0 3pa per game. Kel'el as a rookie matched or exceeded his per36 numbers and is trending in the opposite direction. Will likely be signed by LA.
Larry Nance Jr - not a center. Will be 33 years old after playing in 24 total games last season.

The KD convo needs to be about acquiring him while maintaining a core that can legitimately compete, esp if it involves giving away assets that set up Miamis future.

Who is more replaceable between Ware and KD? Easily Ware. Is the hypothetical scenario where all it will cost is Ware? If so, I can get behind that.

Who has more years of value to offer Miami between Ware and KD?

Do one of Ware or KD come with a guarantee of providing no additional value in the near future?

Expiration dates matter. If Miami is committing to a KD window, then Miami can’t also tank that KD window while also giving away future draft capital.
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1911 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:10 pm

fincane30 wrote:
3ammy3uck3ts wrote:
fincane30 wrote:
He was in the bubble


Because of the 1.3 PPG difference?


Because he was a second creator and scorer and in several games per series was our best offensive player. Goran going into the Finals was averaging 2 points per game more than Jimmy was. Dragic was just over 20. Got hurt in game 1 and wasn't himself in game 6. It hurt his numbers. 7 games in the East playoffs Butler didn't hit 20 pts. In the clincher against Indiana he scored 6 points and Dragic scored 23. His legend was built in Game 3 and Game 5 against the Lakers. Jimmy was our best player but he was not our most consistent scorer leading up the Finals. Bam has the great block in Game 1 against Boston. We don't win games 1 and 2 without Dragic's 29 7 4 and 25 3 5 statlines


Yea so pretty much PPG related and ignoring Bams greater impact and overall game as I had figured. You’re wrong but that’s ok
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1912 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:13 pm

fincane30 wrote:There is a reason no one here is suggesting we should be on the trade market looking for another Bam type and we're all desperate for another big time scorer. As important as Bam is no one is saying we should be in the hunt for a defense first superstar. Or tanking in hopes that the next Rudy Gobert/Draymond/Bam is available in the 2026 draft.


Why would we need another Bam type when we already have Bam, the most versatile defender in the league who is a lock to get a top 10 defense every year? I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here, does this have to do with Dragic averaging 1.3 more PPG than Bam in the bubble and the same amount of assists despite much higher usage?
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1913 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:19 pm

Read on Twitter


Here we go, if we’re going to miss out on KD to Minny we might as well try to jump in there and help facilitate it. In this scenario we’re getting 2 bigs who are clear cut better than Bam to slide in there with Ware.
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1914 » by Beenie » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:26 pm

If Ware is Phoenix' hard line, Mia should bite the bullet.

Maybe then pursue a trade with Dallas for Gafford; something like:

Rozier and a pick for Gafford, Caleb, and filler
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1915 » by unowen85 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:31 pm

Bubble run was led by Jimmy and Dragic. Let’s not rewrite history.
For a long time it gave me nightmares,witnessing an injustice like that.It’s a constant reminder of just how unfair this world can be.I can still hear them taunting him, Silly Rabbit tricks are for kids.I mean why couldn’t they just give him some cereal?
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1916 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:34 pm

unowen85 wrote:Bubble run was led by Jimmy and Dragic. Let’s not rewrite history.


When it’s all said and done Bam will be a top 5 player in Heat history and you and a few other clowns spent his entire tenure **** on him, wild to me :lol:
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1917 » by greg4012 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:34 pm

fincane30 wrote:
3ammy3uck3ts wrote:
fincane30 wrote:
He was in the bubble


Because of the 1.3 PPG difference?


Because he was a second creator and scorer and in several games per series was our best offensive player. Goran going into the Finals was averaging 2 points per game more than Jimmy was. Dragic was just over 20. Got hurt in game 1 and wasn't himself in game 6. It hurt his numbers. 7 games in the East playoffs Butler didn't hit 20 pts. In the clincher against Indiana he scored 6 points and Dragic scored 23. His legend was built in Game 3 and Game 5 against the Lakers. Jimmy was our best player but he was not our most consistent scorer leading up the Finals. Bam has the great block in Game 1 against Boston. We don't win games 1 and 2 without Dragic's 29 7 4 and 25 3 5 statlines


No one disagrees that Dragic had a great playoff run and was critically important to the team in a TEAM game. You overreached and are trying to justify it. The board's favorite past time.

Better stats in bold

Goran playoff stats:
19.1 ppg
EFG = 51%
4.4 apg (2.3 tos)
4.1 rpg
1.1 stocks per
ORTG = 107
DRTG = 113
OBPM = 1.1
DBPM = -0.8
BPM = 0.3
VORP = 0.3
OWS = 0.4
DWS = 0.4
WS = 0.8

Bam playoff stats:
17.8 ppg
EFG = 56%
4.4 apg (2.5 tos)
10.3 rpg
1.8 stocks per
ORTG = 122
DRTG = 109
OBPM = 2.3
DBPM = 1.8
BPM = 4.1
VORP = 1.0
OWS = 1.7
DWS = 0.9
WS = 2.6


Goran had 2 games where he played less than 30 minutes--game 1 of finals where he got injured (15 minutes) and game 6 where he came back from injury too early (19 minutes)

Bam had 1 game where he played less than 30 minutes--game 1 of finals where he got injured (21 minutes). He came back from injury for games 5 and 6.
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1918 » by Kobewade11 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:36 pm

unowen85 wrote:Bubble run was led by Jimmy and Dragic. Let’s not rewrite history.

And a damn good cast. I think 6 guys averaged double figures in each series of first 3 series, with 4 guys right at 20 against Boston. Its so lazy when people reduce that run to just Jimmy.
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1919 » by greg4012 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:36 pm

fincane30 wrote:There is a reason no one here is suggesting we should be on the trade market looking for another Bam type and we're all desperate for another big time scorer. As important as Bam is no one is saying we should be in the hunt for a defense first superstar. Or tanking in hopes that the next Rudy Gobert/Draymond/Bam is available in the 2026 draft.


Bc we already have Bam anchoring a top 10 defense. If we didnt, I promise we'd be desperate for a Bam type and would be looking more like the Phoenix Suns and Brooklyn Nets.
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Re: 2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1 

Post#1920 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:39 pm

greg4012 wrote:
fincane30 wrote:
3ammy3uck3ts wrote:
Because of the 1.3 PPG difference?


Because he was a second creator and scorer and in several games per series was our best offensive player. Goran going into the Finals was averaging 2 points per game more than Jimmy was. Dragic was just over 20. Got hurt in game 1 and wasn't himself in game 6. It hurt his numbers. 7 games in the East playoffs Butler didn't hit 20 pts. In the clincher against Indiana he scored 6 points and Dragic scored 23. His legend was built in Game 3 and Game 5 against the Lakers. Jimmy was our best player but he was not our most consistent scorer leading up the Finals. Bam has the great block in Game 1 against Boston. We don't win games 1 and 2 without Dragic's 29 7 4 and 25 3 5 statlines


No one disagrees that Dragic had a great playoff run and was critically important to the team in a TEAM game. You overreached and are trying to justify it. The board's favorite past time.

Goran playoff stats:
19.1 ppg
EFG = 51%
4.4 apg (2.3 tos)
4.1 rpg
1.1 stocks per
ORTG = 107
DRTG = 113
OBPM = 1.1
DBPM = -0.8
BPM = 0.3
VORP = 0.3
OWS = 0.4
DWS = 0.4
WS = 0.8

Bam playoff stats:
17.8 ppg
EFG = 56%
4.4 apg (2.5 tos)
10.3 rpg
1.8 stocks per
ORTG = 122
DRTG = 109
OBPM = 2.3
DBPM = 1.8
BPM = 4.1
VORP = 1.0
OWS = 1.7
DWS = 0.9
WS = 2.6


Goran had 2 games where he played less than 30 minutes--game 1 of finals where he got injured (15 minutes) and game 6 where he came back from injury too early (19 minutes)

Bam had 1 game where he played less than 30 minutes--game 1 of finals where he got injured (21 minutes). He came back from injury for games 5 and 6.


Not even debatable :lol:
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