2025 Offseason Season Thread Vol. 1

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Is Phoenix ok with Ware being the only asset they get in addition to maybe salary cap relief? If Miami trades Ware are they going to be super aggressive with the rest of the assets to build the best team they possibly can for this 3 year window?

If both answers are yes then cool, go for it.

This is the conversation i was trying to bring up yesterday. It’s a tough call. No other teams are offering there top prospects. Why should we? Suns should consider themselves lucky to be getting Jovic and JJJ with 20th pick.

AND cap relief, that’s more than the Warriors gave for Jimmy. Take it an be happy, that’s the going rate these days

[fincane30]

No one disagrees that Dragic had a great playoff run and was critically important to the team in a TEAM game. You overreached and are trying to justify it. The board's favorite past time.

Better stats in bold

Goran playoff stats:
19.1 ppg
EFG = 51%
4.4 apg (2.3 tos)
4.1 rpg
1.1 stocks per
ORTG = 107
DRTG = 113
OBPM = 1.1
DBPM = -0.8
BPM = 0.3
VORP = 0.3
OWS = 0.4
DWS = 0.4
WS = 0.8

Bam playoff stats:
17.8 ppg
EFG = 56%
4.4 apg (2.5 tos)
10.3 rpg
1.8 stocks per
ORTG = 122
DRTG = 109
OBPM = 2.3
DBPM = 1.8
BPM = 4.1
VORP = 1.0
OWS = 1.7
DWS = 0.9
WS = 2.6


Goran had 2 games where he played less than 30 minutes--game 1 of finals where he got injured (15 minutes) and game 6 where he came back from injury too early (19 minutes)

Bam had 1 game where he played less than 30 minutes--game 1 of finals where he got injured (21 minutes). He came back from injury for games 5 and 6.

Overreach to say the guy who led an Eastern Conference champion in scoring before he got hurt was the 2nd best player. Sure. Bam is a great advanced stat guy. Defensive first guys usually are. No one was asking Bam to carry the load of keeping that offense afloat. The ball wasn't in his hands in tight games. He wasn't asked to start offense or be a willing shooter when the ball came to him down the stretch. Roller, lob threat and some pick and pop and great defense. This isn't an attack on Bam. He simply wasn't the player he is now five years ago. There was reason a Jimmy Butler had to go god mode in a couple of Finals games. And it wasn't because Bam had the shoulder injury. If they gave out the award then Goran had great case for conference finals MVP and probably would've won it

Bro he scored 1 PPG more than Bam on that run, ONE! Are you trolling? Bam was far and away the Heats best player in the 2020 ECF, he easily would’ve won the award averaging 22-11-5-2-1 with a 66TS% compared to Dragics 21-4-5 on 57TS%.

Like I said, rewriting history

Nah while some like to talk about people don't take into account what a great defender means other people always seem to underestimate what it means when you're the focus of a defense and one of their primary objectives is to stop what you do on the offensive end. So Bam is great as a screen assists guy. People like to point it out. Helps people score. He was also the beneficiary of being the 3rd or 4th guy a 2020 playoff defense worried about when it came to his offensive numbers. Catch lobs, play from the dunker spot, offensive putbacks. Shoot a couple of midrange jumpers. He did a great job.

Clint Capela can put up 17 and 13 with prime Harden during a season. A good defender. Not on Bam's level. Average more points per game in a regular season than Chris Paul on the same team that year. Have a TS% 65.8. Would those numbers justify anyone saying Clint Capela was a more important player for that Rockets team than Paul?

[SA37]

Read on Twitter

WOW. That's a lot of money for a backup.

#frontcourtsmatter

We know LA is desperate on the market for a Center. I'm sure there are others. I expect old man Brook Lopez to have suitors and get more money than he prob should (won't age well if it's a multi-year deal). Hell, I bet Al Horford can still get more than the vet min this offseason if hes cool to leave Boston.

Miami made 2 Finals (almost 3) with Bam (6'8) at center and PJ Tucker (6'4) and Jae Crowder (6'6) at PF.

[Kobewade11]

Send Phoenix #20, let them pick their own center. If thats not enough in addition to the cap relief they’d be getting, kick rocks.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Overreach to say the guy who led an Eastern Conference champion in scoring before he got hurt was the 2nd best player. Sure. Bam is a great advanced stat guy. Defensive first guys usually are. No one was asking Bam to carry the load of keeping that offense afloat. The ball wasn't in his hands in tight games. He wasn't asked to start offense or be a willing shooter when the ball came to him down the stretch. Roller, lob threat and some pick and pop and great defense. This isn't an attack on Bam. He simply wasn't the player he is now five years ago. There was reason a Jimmy Butler had to go god mode in a couple of Finals games. And it wasn't because Bam had the shoulder injury. If they gave out the award then Goran had great case for conference finals MVP and probably would've won it

Bro he scored 1 PPG more than Bam on that run, ONE! Are you trolling? Bam was far and away the Heats best player in the 2020 ECF, he easily would’ve won the award averaging 22-11-5-2-1 with a 66TS% compared to Dragics 21-4-5 on 57TS%.

Like I said, rewriting history

Nah while some like to talk about people don't take into account what a great defender means other people always seem to underestimate what it means when you're the focus of a defense and one of their primary objectives is to stop what you do on the offensive end. So Bam is great as a screen assists guy. People like to point it out. Helps people score. He was also the beneficiary of being the 3rd or 4th guy a 2020 playoff defense worried about when it came to his offensive numbers. Catch lobs, play from the dunker spot, offensive putbacks. Shoot a couple of midrange jumpers. He did a great job.

Clint Capela can put up 17 and 13 with prime Harden during a season. A good defender. Not on Bam's level. Average more points per game in a regular season than Chris Paul on the same team that year. Have a TS% 65.8. Would those numbers justify anyone saying Clint Capela was a more important player for that Rockets team than Paul?

Have a good day!!

[SA37]

Is Phoenix ok with Ware being the only asset they get in addition to maybe salary cap relief? If Miami trades Ware are they going to be super aggressive with the rest of the assets to build the best team they possibly can for this 3 year window?

If both answers are yes then cool, go for it.

This is the conversation i was trying to bring up yesterday. It’s a tough call. No other teams are offering there top prospects. Why should we? Suns should consider themselves lucky to be getting Jovic and JJJ with 20th pick.

In fairness, Minnesota would be offering a better player in Gobert. Plus he fills a position of need for Phoenix.

The question is, if Miami misses out on Durant, who does Miami target?

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Is Phoenix ok with Ware being the only asset they get in addition to maybe salary cap relief? If Miami trades Ware are they going to be super aggressive with the rest of the assets to build the best team they possibly can for this 3 year window?

If both answers are yes then cool, go for it.

This is the conversation i was trying to bring up yesterday. It’s a tough call. No other teams are offering there top prospects. Why should we? Suns should consider themselves lucky to be getting Jovic and JJJ with 20th pick.

It's a valid conversation to consider. I just believe the roster build of Miami will be lesser keeping Wiggins than keeping Ware.

I do like the size of a KD/Bam/Ware front court. That should be a lock for a top 5 defense if Davion is at point and we have defenders off the bench

[CrossOver]

Read on Twitter

[MettaWorldPanda]

Read on Twitter

Suns trying to twist our arm for Ware. It’s not going to work. Trust

[greg4012]

Overreach to say the guy who led an Eastern Conference champion in scoring before he got hurt was the 2nd best player. Sure. Bam is a great advanced stat guy. Defensive first guys usually are. No one was asking Bam to carry the load of keeping that offense afloat. The ball wasn't in his hands in tight games. He wasn't asked to start offense or be a willing shooter when the ball came to him down the stretch. Roller, lob threat and some pick and pop and great defense. This isn't an attack on Bam. He simply wasn't the player he is now five years ago. There was reason a Jimmy Butler had to go god mode in a couple of Finals games. And it wasn't because Bam had the shoulder injury. If they gave out the award then Goran had great case for conference finals MVP and probably would've won it

Bro he scored 1 PPG more than Bam on that run, ONE! Are you trolling? Bam was far and away the Heats best player in the 2020 ECF, he easily would’ve won the award averaging 22-11-5-2-1 with a 66TS% compared to Dragics 21-4-5 on 57TS%.

Like I said, rewriting history

Nah while some like to talk about people don't take into account what a great defender means other people always seem to underestimate what it means when you're the focus of a defense and one of their primary objectives is to stop what you do on the offensive end. So Bam is great as a screen assists guy. People like to point it out. Helps people score. He was also the beneficiary of being the 3rd or 4th guy a 2020 playoff defense worried about when it came to his offensive numbers. Catch lobs, play from the dunker spot, offensive putbacks. Shoot a couple of midrange jumpers. He did a great job.

Clint Capela can put up 17 and 13 with prime Harden during a season. A good defender. Not on Bam's level. Average more points per game in a regular season than Chris Paul on the same team that year. Have a TS% 65.8. Would those numbers justify anyone saying Clint Capela was a more important player for that Rockets team than Paul?

Clint Capela career high playoff scoring: 12 ppg to go with 1.3 apg and 0.9 turnovers. In that postseason, Chris Paul averaged 18 ppg, 8 apg (2 tos) and had better advanced stats than Capela (despite Capela clearly being hugely important to the team as a finisher and on defense).

Now cut Chris Paul's assist numbers in half and give them to Capela, boost Capela's scoring by 50% (including much more self-created looks), juice up his screen assists, and make him a far more versatile and complete defender and you might be onto something!
 
False equivalencies are fun tho! And are a great way to try to distract from a point made that is proving to be very wrong!

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

Welp, Minnys top reporter who is very close to Shams chimes in.

[MettaWorldPanda]

Is Phoenix ok with Ware being the only asset they get in addition to maybe salary cap relief? If Miami trades Ware are they going to be super aggressive with the rest of the assets to build the best team they possibly can for this 3 year window?

If both answers are yes then cool, go for it.

This is the conversation i was trying to bring up yesterday. It’s a tough call. No other teams are offering there top prospects. Why should we? Suns should consider themselves lucky to be getting Jovic and JJJ with 20th pick.

In fairness, Minnesota would be offering a better player in Gobert. Plus he fills a position of need for Phoenix.

The question is, if Miami misses out on Durant, who does Miami target?

Minnesota’s build will be chit if they give up Gobert and the young Suns really don’t need to straddle themselves to Gobert’s contract who turns 33 this month

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

Suns trying to twist our arm for Ware. It’s not going to work. Trust

Yep that’s all it is. Last ditch effort to squeeze out Ware

[3ammy3uck3ts]

This is the conversation i was trying to bring up yesterday. It’s a tough call. No other teams are offering there top prospects. Why should we? Suns should consider themselves lucky to be getting Jovic and JJJ with 20th pick.

In fairness, Minnesota would be offering a better player in Gobert. Plus he fills a position of need for Phoenix.

The question is, if Miami misses out on Durant, who does Miami target?

Minnesota’s build will be chit if they give up Gobert and the young Suns really don’t need to straddle themselves to Gobert’s contract who turns 33 this month

Make Randle their 3rd option and now start Naz as well who will be taking reps from Randle and I promise you he will single handedly implode that team next season

[greg4012]

WOW. That's a lot of money for a backup.

#frontcourtsmatter

We know LA is desperate on the market for a Center. I'm sure there are others. I expect old man Brook Lopez to have suitors and get more money than he prob should (won't age well if it's a multi-year deal). Hell, I bet Al Horford can still get more than the vet min this offseason if hes cool to leave Boston.

Miami made 2 Finals (almost 3) with Bam (6'8) at center and PJ Tucker (6'4) and Jae Crowder (6'6) at PF.

Hell yea--Bam is the man! Chronically underrated by way too many Heat fans and has proven to be one of the best frontcourt players in the NBA for years. Tucker and Crowder were excellent defenders that provided versatile game checking enough boxes of the ancillary dirty work needed from big man (people moving on screens, boxing out, defensive and offensive positioning) while adding value to counteract their lack of size (and lack of rim protection/rebounding) with capable floor spacing and some element of dribble-pass-shoot game. Spo's switch everything defense worked well with that build.

If Miami ends up trading Ware, I really hope Jovic is ready for the grime work and Miami can add someone like Tucker or Crowder for versatility.

Ware provides a really unique blend of meshing more traditional frontcourt functions with the modern game with his offensive spacing and solid defensive mobility.

[SA37]

This is the conversation i was trying to bring up yesterday. It’s a tough call. No other teams are offering there top prospects. Why should we? Suns should consider themselves lucky to be getting Jovic and JJJ with 20th pick.

In fairness, Minnesota would be offering a better player in Gobert. Plus he fills a position of need for Phoenix.

The question is, if Miami misses out on Durant, who does Miami target?

Minnesota’s build will be chit if they give up Gobert and the young Suns really don’t need to straddle themselves to Gobert’s contract who turns 33 this month

I disagree.

Presumably Reid is already there to step in as a starter, so they just need a backup. If Conley heads out, would Chris Paul sign with Minny? I assume Westbrook is following KD. I think Minnesota could trade Randle to fill out their bench plus a Bruce Brown or someone like that.

Reid
Randle
Durant / McDaniels
Ant / Alexander-Walker
Conley /

[fincane30]

LOL at casually dismissing EVERY stat that tracks impact as if they are all the same and saying "defensive first guys" usually are favored by advanced stats which is PATENTLY FALSE.

It might not be an attack on Bam, but it's a clear display of lack of understanding as to how teams win in the NBA.

Please tell me more about how Offensive Rating, Offensive Box Plus Minus, Offensive Win Shares, Win Shares and Value Over Replacement Players are advanced stats that usually favor "defensive first guys". I'm ready to learn.

We just saw how teams win in the playoffs win against good teams in big spots last night. The offensive player with ball in his hands took over. None of OKC's advanced stats and one of the best historical teams we've seen over the last 20 years mattered when they were down multiple possession in the 4th quarter with the season on the line. All of the sudden OKC's statistical dominance over the course of season meant quite a bit less.

The best offensive player in the world took over. Chet rebounded and did well when the Pacers mismatched hunted down the stretch. If SGA doesn't make all the plays on the other end their down 3-1. Chet's 14pts 15 rebs and great defense(sound familiar?)was key. So yes Bam was and continues to remain super important.

Bam and what he does puts you in position but it isn't enough because he isn't enough on offense. The Celtics had Robert Williams in 22 and 23. The Bucks had Brook Lopez. OKC has Chet. Minny has Gobert. Knicks have when healthy Mitchell Robinson. Generally good teams have good defensive big men. Bam's offensive contributions put him a tier above those guys.

Robert Horry most valuable player of all time?

Conveniently completely ignored the multitude of points made proving the many ways in which you've been wrong so far.

I accept that you watch the game primarily for on-ball work and ignore other impact (despite it being more important than you give it credit). I don't really care to waste more time on this. I know 2 things:

1) Dragic is THE MAN
2) You're WRONG af

Did Robert Horry ever create offense for himself or was he always the beneficiary of better offensive players creating chances for him in those spots?

You need everybody to win and all that they provide. But when you're playing other great teams with other really good players you need difference makers on the offensive end of the floor. It will always be that way because good coaches and good rosters who have won their way into competing for titles will have guys on the floor late who can get a stop. Who on your roster is gonna be capable of knocking down a shot to put a game away or create offense for others to get a good shot? That wasn't Bam in 2020. You don't win playoff games late because the guy sets a great screen. He does have the Tatum block though.

[MettaWorldPanda]

Send Phoenix #20, let them pick their own center. If thats not enough in addition to the cap relief they’d be getting, kick rocks.

Totally agree. They got like 5 centers to choose from. If they want Ware they should be giving us there 1st rd pick and we keep 20 to draft his replacement.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

In fairness, Minnesota would be offering a better player in Gobert. Plus he fills a position of need for Phoenix.

The question is, if Miami misses out on Durant, who does Miami target?

Minnesota’s build will be chit if they give up Gobert and the young Suns really don’t need to straddle themselves to Gobert’s contract who turns 33 this month

I disagree.

Presumably Reid is already there to step in as a starter, so they just need a backup. If Conley heads out, would Chris Paul sign with Minny? I assume Westbrook is following KD. I think Minnesota could trade Randle to fill out their bench plus a Bruce Brown or someone like that.

Reid
Randle
Durant / McDaniels
Ant / Alexander-Walker
Conley /

That’s 4 score first guys next to a borderline washed up PG, they have no one to do the dirty work and Ant and Durant are the only 2 that impact both sides of the ball. Randle and Naz are horrible defenders and Conley is just too old

[Beenie]

This is the conversation i was trying to bring up yesterday. It’s a tough call. No other teams are offering there top prospects. Why should we? Suns should consider themselves lucky to be getting Jovic and JJJ with 20th pick.

In fairness, Minnesota would be offering a better player in Gobert. Plus he fills a position of need for Phoenix.

The question is, if Miami misses out on Durant, who does Miami target?

Minnesota’s build will be chit if they give up Gobert and the young Suns really don’t need to straddle themselves to Gobert’s contract who turns 33 this month

Depends who they can replace him with.