Better prime: Dirk vs Durant vs Kobe

[tsherkin]

Yeah, I have to pipe up here. KD had his moments as a defender, but especially young Kobe was a hound on defense before he became an ultra-volume player. Like, obviously no one is going to suggest that 06 Kobe was killing it on defense. He was too busy exhausting himself as a scorer that year. That's understandable. But in general before he got older, he was definitely a strong perimeter defender and a worthy All-D guy for some of it. No one has ever accused Durant of being an All-D level defender.

As for strength, I'd lean on Kobe, particularly from about 03 forward when he bulked up. Durant was never that kind of guy, and didn't exhibit any on-court actions which leaned heavily upon strength. Handles, movement, using his height/reach/high release to get his shot off, sure. He took contact reasonably well in his prime. But like, he wasn't ever bodying guys and he has a bit of a high center of gravity, gets moved around on those deer legs of his. Naturally, his lifting ability is one thing, but lifting ability and functional on-court strength are not the same thing.

[One_and_Done]

Kobe could bench more... which matters why? You might as well tell me Kobe was better at spinning the ball on his finger. It doesn't translate to on court impact. I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe could bench more than Wemby too. No idea how it would make him better on D tho.

KD is also very athletic, but so much bigger and longer than Kobe that ever if you thought Kobe had minor advantages in this or that, it wouldn't matter.

[ChiTown6rings]

Kobe's offensive output was not on the level of efficiency as KD and Dirk respectively. But he had less kinks in his overall game than the other 2. Kobe's biggest flaw (efficiency) was more so by choice than a defensive plan that exploited his "weaknesses" so to speak.

[One_and_Done]

Kobe's offensive output was not on the level of efficiency as KD and Dirk respectively. But he had less kinks in his overall game than the other 2. Kobe's biggest flaw (efficiency) was more so by choice than a defensive plan that exploited his "weaknesses" so to speak.

You get more credit for freely choosing to make bad choices, as opposed to being pressured into them?

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Kobe could bench more... which matters why? You might as well tell me Kobe was better at spinning the ball on his finger. It doesn't translate to on court impact. I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe could bench more than Wemby too. No idea how it would make him better on D tho.

KD is also very athletic, but so much bigger and longer than Kobe that ever if you thought Kobe had minor advantages in this or that, it wouldn't matter.

I'm not some super gym bro but isn't being strong important for defense?

[One_and_Done]

Kobe could bench more... which matters why? You might as well tell me Kobe was better at spinning the ball on his finger. It doesn't translate to on court impact. I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe could bench more than Wemby too. No idea how it would make him better on D tho.

KD is also very athletic, but so much bigger and longer than Kobe that ever if you thought Kobe had minor advantages in this or that, it wouldn't matter.

I'm not some super gym bro but isn't being strong important for defense?

Yes and no. Core strength is important, not how much you can bench. Steven Adams, who isn't especially ripped, is widely regarded as the strongest and toughest guy in the NBA.

Also other things are more important. In the case of Wemby, his frame isn't ever going to be conducive to benching much, but it doesn't need to be because of his other attributes like length. Strength at the shooting guard spot isn't that important for D, usually the guy you are guarding is beating you with speed or craft, not strength. KD's length and size are far more useful than benching strength. It's not like you want the guys KD/Kobe guards to be posting up much anyway.

Strength isn't a bad thing to have, but to act like benching more can elevate Kobe over the (also quite athletic) KD and his far superior height and length, is pretty silly.

[tsherkin]

Strength isn't a bad thing to have, but to act like benching more can elevate Kobe over the (also quite athletic) KD and his far superior height and length, is pretty silly.

There is also something to be said for center of gravity and quickness. With Kobe, it kind of depends on which version of him you're looking at, and of course what his offensive load was like. Circa 2000, 2001, there's no way to pick KD over the kind of defense Kobe was providing at the time. KD's never had the greatest defensive reputation, but pre-injury, he was a pretty good athlete, solid on the defensive boards, a semi-decent shot blocker with his length and stuff... but he did struggle with more physical guys and he wasn't brilliant navigating screens, nor defending quicker players. And like his relatively mediocre court vision, his defensive awareness isn't amazing. He can make the obvious play, but he's not a guy who really stuns you with anticipation and preparedness on D.

[One_and_Done]

Strength isn't a bad thing to have, but to act like benching more can elevate Kobe over the (also quite athletic) KD and his far superior height and length, is pretty silly.

There is also something to be said for center of gravity and quickness. With Kobe, it kind of depends on which version of him you're looking at, and of course what his offensive load was like. Circa 2000, 2001, there's no way to pick KD over the kind of defense Kobe was providing at the time. KD's never had the greatest defensive reputation, but pre-injury, he was a pretty good athlete, solid on the defensive boards, a semi-decent shot blocker with his length and stuff... but he did struggle with more physical guys and he wasn't brilliant navigating screens, nor defending quicker players. And like his relatively mediocre court vision, his defensive awareness isn't amazing. He can make the obvious play, but he's not a guy who really stuns you with anticipation and preparedness on D.

It's misleading to say that, because they'd have different roles on D. 2000 Kobe, who actually gave a crap on D, would have been a better point of attack defender against say point guards... but that's only one aspect of defence.

Prime KD would be guarding 3-4, where guys aren't as quick, and playing spot minutes at the 5 to offer some rim protection. Kobe can't do that. Prime KD can offer more resistance to say Paul George or Kawhi, who are relying on their size and moves to score, not their speed. Against Kawhi, KD could get bumped off his spot with Kawhi's strength, but unlike Kobe who would also be bumped off, KD has the crazy length and size to still contest well.

At any rate, 2000 Kobe looked good on D in an era where perimeter guards could coast and selectively lock in for certain isos. In today's game Kobe would be run ragged, forcing him to either expend less energy on O, or perform worse on D.

[tsherkin]

It's misleading to say that, because they'd have different roles on D. 2000 Kobe, who actually gave a crap on D, would have been a better point of attack defender against say point guards... but that's only one aspect of defence.

There is nothing misleading in what i said.

Prime KD would be guarding 3-4, where guys aren't as quick, and playing spot minutes at the 5 to offer some rim protection. Kobe can't do that.

No more than KD could guard quick shooting guards and point guards, so this is an immaterial point.

Prime KD can offer more resistance to say Paul George or Kawhi, who are relying on their size and moves to score, not their speed.

Not really, size and strength were and remain specific weaknesses in his defensive ability. KD has never been an especially remarkable defender at any position.

[One_and_Done]

Yeh, I disagree, at least compared to Kobe.

[falcolombardi]

Kobe then durant and dirk but is not a huge gap imo

[GeorgeMarcus]

Kobe then Dirk then Durant

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Kobe could bench more... which matters why? You might as well tell me Kobe was better at spinning the ball on his finger. It doesn't translate to on court impact. I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe could bench more than Wemby too. No idea how it would make him better on D tho.

KD is also very athletic, but so much bigger and longer than Kobe that ever if you thought Kobe had minor advantages in this or that, it wouldn't matter.

I'm not some super gym bro but isn't being strong important for defense?

Yes and no. Core strength is important, not how much you can bench. Steven Adams, who isn't especially ripped, is widely regarded as the strongest and toughest guy in the NBA.

Also other things are more important. In the case of Wemby, his frame isn't ever going to be conducive to benching much, but it doesn't need to be because of his other attributes like length. Strength at the shooting guard spot isn't that important for D, usually the guy you are guarding is beating you with speed or craft, not strength. KD's length and size are far more useful than benching strength. It's not like you want the guys KD/Kobe guards to be posting up much anyway.

Strength isn't a bad thing to have, but to act like benching more can elevate Kobe over the (also quite athletic) KD and his far superior height and length, is pretty silly.

so what does benching measure if not how strong you are?

[eminence]

A) Steven Adams is muscular as hell. Being ripped is just about body fat % after a certain minimal level of muscle that most NBA athletes are past.

B) Bench is a pretty mediocre measure of basketball strength. Maybe something like a hang clean would be most interesting? Lunge variants up there.

C) No chance KD has ever touched a 3 plate bench, and I seriously doubt Kobe did either.

[Boogie!]

I don’t mean this as any disrespect but can I ask why Kobe has become so overrated? His efficiency has never been great he’s always been a volume scorer. Kevin Durant is easily the better offensive player.

[One_and_Done]

I don’t mean this as any disrespect but can I ask why Kobe has become so overrated? His efficiency has never been great he’s always been a volume scorer. Kevin Durant is easily the better offensive player.

In fairness, the majority didn't vote Kobe.

I think it'll just take time for the nostalgia and his hard core fanbase to die off. When KD retires with more points, rebounds, etc, that will help some too.

[NZB2323]

Kobe is underrated and this post is probably rage bait , borderline top 10? only elite at scoring? Anyway the younger generation didn’t even Watch prime Kobe if anything most of them underrate him

Dirk was also not “borderline top 10” and “only elite at scoring”, so looks like that went over your head.

Both are true. What was dirk elite at besides scoring? Bad defender, weak rebounder for a big man, average to below average passer.

Dirk is 28th all time in total rebounds, but what’s more impressive is he always averaged more in the playoffs. His playoff average RPG from 02-09:

13
12
12
10
12
11
12
10

His playoff rpg ranking from 02-09:

3rd
8th
4th
7th
3rd
7th
6th
7th

[tsherkin]

I don’t mean this as any disrespect but can I ask why Kobe has become so overrated? His efficiency has never been great he’s always been a volume scorer. Kevin Durant is easily the better offensive player.

"Mamba Mentality," aesthetic of game to casual hoopers, errant "clutch" reputation, overrated defensive reputation. Scoring volume fetishism. His close association with MJ.

His efficiency was fine. It's worth remembering that he was a +3% rTS guy over like his decade-long prime. His reputation as a chucker has actually outpaced the reality of his game at this point.

[NZB2323]

He's not a fancier dunker than Kobe, but athleticism is about more than your vertical jump. Durant is better than Kobe at almost every facet of basketball, in some cases by preposterous degrees.

Proves my point even more.

Kobe has a better motor. Better agility. Better strength. Better coordination in the air. Quicker with a better 1st step.

Don't see any argument for KD being superior athletically.

Even were any of this true, it's alot like saying 'Wes Unseld has a better motor, and agility, and mid-air co-ordination than Shaq!' Like, maybe he does. It's irrelevant though, because it's Shaq. You don't get bonus points for being more versatile if the other guys natural athletic gifts cast everything else into irrelevance.

You know who else is more athletic relative to his size than Shaq? And a better dribbler and shooter with a better motor, and better skills all around? Early Boykins. Does it matter? Not at all, because it doesn't matter that Boykins is more 'skilled', or 'has more mid air control'. All that matters who is more impactful. You don't get points for how pretty the basket looks when you make it, all buckets are tye same regardless.

Kobe is your Wes Unseld. Even if he has things he excels at more than KD, and I said if, KDs overwhelming physical advantages blow it all away. That's probably why KD was so much more impactful on a basketball court when it came to making his teams win, and why Kobe was mediocre when not surrounded by a stacked team.

When was Durant on a team that wasn’t stacked?

[Boogie!]

I don’t mean this as any disrespect but can I ask why Kobe has become so overrated? His efficiency has never been great he’s always been a volume scorer. Kevin Durant is easily the better offensive player.

In fairness, the majority didn't vote Kobe.

I think it'll just take time for the nostalgia and his hard core fanbase to die off. When KD retires with more points, rebounds, etc, that will help some too.

Even still throughout nba circles Kobe is always discussed as one of the goats… he was definitely great in his era, but even compared to mj, he’s not really that close… stylistically maybe…