Bill Simmons RIPS the Raptors roster and salaries. (UPDATE Zach Lowe & Rob Mahoney go in on Raptors)

[PickleJ]

Just scanned the last few pages to try to figure what the current topic is, got confused, but then zeroed in on the following.

1. I’m not sure anyone should listen to Simmons or Russillo for anything but entertainment purposes. They are fans with opinions who also happen to have podcasts. They are not experts on basketball or how to build a championship. I never listen o them,, because I’d rather come here to get my fan opinion fix and to be entertained. (But also a portion of Raps fans can be jerks online, as well).

2. I think the Raps made three big “fork in the road” mistakes after the championship. Trading Powell for Trent. Understandable, but Powell was bonded to that group. Not aggressively pursuing a centre after the Tampa season. I would have forked over two 1st’s for a legit centre at that time. A starting point of Poeltl or Turner or another centre, plus Barnes, Siakam, Anunoby, VanVleet, and Powell could have been something. Not letting go of Nurse as soon as the locker room started to crumble (I’m thinking back to Siakam’s first blow up with him), as it was ultimately money and team dynamics that sunk that versions of the Raps.

3 I don’t consider the Raps future to be bleak. The Raps roster is a bit clunky, but it’s deep. We are currently expensive, but we don’t have deadweight contracts or ones that can’t be useful in a consolidation trade. We don’t have a young star besides Barnes or piles of draft picks and we are not tanking, but we have solid young players that play hard and showed growth, and we have a full slate of picks. We are not OKC after the Paul George trade, but we aren’t the Pelicans or Jazz, either.

Bill Simmons doesn’t have to follow the Raps since he’s not a Raps fan, but I am and I think we are in for a fun year. I am curious to see how this team responds when the focus shifts back to winning games this year. I think much of the roster is chomping at the bit to get after it.

[ConSarnit]

It's only "hard to argue" with this because I've got deadlines, and this stuff has been litigated to death.

Suffice it to say I disagree with you, sir.

I'd actually like to hear your argument. In the past 3 years 7 teams have failed to win 100 combined games. We are one of those 7. Imagine I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and our clear best prospect was still Barnes, who was drafted in 2021. Our highest draft pick was 9th after missing the playoffs 3 years in a row.

If you think we haven't been poorly managed over the past 3 years you're not being objective. Our overall record and lack of high upside prospects are the proof. Not to mention waiting too long to move off our vets which resulted in sub-par returns (compared to the rest of the league) or flat out losing them for nothing (FVV).

Spark notes version on why I don’t think we’ve been poorly managed is that we’re about to enter a season with average to above average starters at every position in our starting five, and a very young and talented bench with room to grow.

It’s fair to dislike the moves but there’s nothing more ‘objective’ about having a negative view of the roster than there is for those who have a positive view.

We went through a rebuild and we’ve come out the otherside with an interesting and talented group of players. We’ll see how it fits together on court this season

You’re not addressing the correct argument. The argument I was addressing was not about the current team. The argument was that we were objectively poorly run the last 3 years. There is no argument we have been run well the past 3 years. We have zero playoff appearances, the highest draft pick we made was 9th and we sold low on the previous core. We have done some solid things during that time but our expected outcome given our record is well below average.

[ConSarnit]

Unless we got Wemby, Scottie would still be our best prospect.

And this has been beaten to death but the offers for Pascal the year prior to when he was dealt were not good. Neither were the offers for OG. Taking those deals would actually have put us in a worse position.

There have been missteps but the problem is the ones who go to great lengths to criticize the moves this FO has made can never tell us the moves they missed out on. Who are these blue-chip prospects we missed out on? What trades did they miss out on? Would AJ Griffin and Kobe Bufkin put us in a better position to compete than BI, Ochai and Walter?

Exactly. I get the hate for the Jakob trade but people keep acting like they had some crystal ball to know for sure we would get Wemby. I can’t remember who else was drafted in the lottery in that year but I’m pretty sure none of them are better than Scottie. So Scottie as you said more likely than not would have still been our best player. I too also remember the offers that we heard for Pascal and OG a year earlier weren’t good. Do you remember what those offers were?

Poeltl trade was a fork in the road decision. Arguments both ways. Masai has basically admitted he perhaps should have made a different decision, but wanted to give it one more shot with the reunited bench mob.

But one questionable decision does not mean the team was "badly managed". In every other respect - especially in the draft - it is a well managed team. Pascal for BI, Ochai and JaKobe (and the cap space to acquire Shead) is not a bad set of transactions on its face, and history could look favourably on it. OG is an excellent defensive player (when healthy) but is NOT a difference maker, RJ, IQ and even Mogbo collectively give us WAY more depth than we had before, and can be fine players in their own right.

And we still have Poeltl. An above average C on a decent contract for the long term. I've seen WAY worse decisions/outcomes.

Look around the current trade landscape of the league and tell me we did well with the OG and Siakam trades.

Given what should have happened we have been well below average in terms of outcomes. We got the lowest possible returns for guys like OG and Siakam AND just about the lowest possible returns in the draft for a team that missed the playoffs 3 years in a row. Just be objective for a minute and tell me that you would have been happy with this outcome if I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row: 13th pick, no pick, 9th pick. Our drsdr outcomes have been solid for the bad positions we put ourselves in. That doesn’t mean we’ve done a good job.

This retconning of “Siakam and OG didn’t have value” is nuts. Both guys got $40m a year from respected front offices. Same with FVV (who I noticed you conspicuously left out). All of these guys got big contracts from well run teams. But sure, they must not have had “value” around the league. It must be a fluke they all got large deals.

Yeah, you’ve seen worse decision but that does not by default mean we made “good” decisions. This isn’t just a Bill Simmons thing. The majority of the NBA podcast world has been questioning what we’ve been doing. This includes more respected analysts like Zach Lowe and John Hollinger. Same with the GB. The consensus outside of this board is that we’ve done a questionable job.

Here’s a thought exercise to hammer things home: imagine it’s the summer of 2028 and Barnes, Ingram and IQ are no longer on the team. The best draft asset we got for any of them was the 20th pick in 2026 and with our own picks we ended up drafting 13th in 2026 and 9th in 2028. You would 100% say “what the hell happened?” This is exactly what happened with us losing FVV, OG and Siakam.

[JB7]

Now that Orlando has officially maxed Banchero, can we now consider Orlando another team screwed by the aprons? Banchero's max is just the 25% of cap one for now. I imagine it would bump to 30% if he is all-NBA this season. But even at 25%, the Magic will be spending $155M on 4 players in 2026-27, and growing in the following seasons.

In addition, 3 of the 4 are locked in for 5 years, and the other, Bane is locked in for 4 years.

If they don't perform, some of those contracts are going to be very difficult to move and get a lot of value back.

[JB7]

Exactly. I get the hate for the Jakob trade but people keep acting like they had some crystal ball to know for sure we would get Wemby. I can’t remember who else was drafted in the lottery in that year but I’m pretty sure none of them are better than Scottie. So Scottie as you said more likely than not would have still been our best player. I too also remember the offers that we heard for Pascal and OG a year earlier weren’t good. Do you remember what those offers were?

Poeltl trade was a fork in the road decision. Arguments both ways. Masai has basically admitted he perhaps should have made a different decision, but wanted to give it one more shot with the reunited bench mob.

But one questionable decision does not mean the team was "badly managed". In every other respect - especially in the draft - it is a well managed team. Pascal for BI, Ochai and JaKobe (and the cap space to acquire Shead) is not a bad set of transactions on its face, and history could look favourably on it. OG is an excellent defensive player (when healthy) but is NOT a difference maker, RJ, IQ and even Mogbo collectively give us WAY more depth than we had before, and can be fine players in their own right.

And we still have Poeltl. An above average C on a decent contract for the long term. I've seen WAY worse decisions/outcomes.

Look around the current trade landscape of the league and tell me we did well with the OG and Siakam trades.

Given what should have happened we have been well below average in terms of outcomes. We got the lowest possible returns for guys like OG and Siakam AND just about the lowest possible returns in the draft for a team that missed the playoffs 3 years in a row. Just be objective for a minute and tell me that you would have been happy with this outcome if I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row: 13th pick, no pick, 9th pick. Our drsdr outcomes have been solid for the bad positions we put ourselves in. That doesn’t mean we’ve done a good job.

This retconning of “Siakam and OG didn’t have value” is nuts. Both guys got $40m a year from respected front offices. Same with FVV (who I noticed you conspicuously left out). All of these guys got big contracts from well run teams. But sure, they must not have had “value” around the league. It must be a fluke they all got large deals.

Yeah, you’ve seen worse decision but that does not by default mean we made “good” decisions. This isn’t just a Bill Simmons thing. The majority of the NBA podcast world has been questioning what we’ve been doing. This includes more respected analysts like Zach Lowe and John Hollinger. Same with the GB. The consensus outside of this board is that we’ve done a questionable job.

Here’s a thought exercise to hammer things home: imagine it’s the summer of 2028 and Barnes, Ingram and IQ are no longer on the team. The best draft asset we got for any of them was the 20th pick in 2026 and with our own picks we ended up drafting 13th in 2026 and 9th in 2028. You would 100% say “what the hell happened?” This is exactly what happened with us losing FVV, OG and Siakam.

What suppressed Pascal and OGs trade values was the fact they both were expecting huge payouts, that teams were reluctant to offer. The Pacers and Knicks were willing to do those extensions, hence the trades.

And because of Fred's expected salary demands, he had virtually no trade market. He lucked out because the Rockets hired Ime, who preferred to toss the excess cash the Rockets had for 2 years at Fred instead of Harden.

[tecumseh18]

I'd actually like to hear your argument. In the past 3 years 7 teams have failed to win 100 combined games. We are one of those 7. Imagine I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and our clear best prospect was still Barnes, who was drafted in 2021. Our highest draft pick was 9th after missing the playoffs 3 years in a row.

If you think we haven't been poorly managed over the past 3 years you're not being objective. Our overall record and lack of high upside prospects are the proof. Not to mention waiting too long to move off our vets which resulted in sub-par returns (compared to the rest of the league) or flat out losing them for nothing (FVV).

Spark notes version on why I don’t think we’ve been poorly managed is that we’re about to enter a season with average to above average starters at every position in our starting five, and a very young and talented bench with room to grow.

It’s fair to dislike the moves but there’s nothing more ‘objective’ about having a negative view of the roster than there is for those who have a positive view.

We went through a rebuild and we’ve come out the otherside with an interesting and talented group of players. We’ll see how it fits together on court this season

You’re not addressing the correct argument. The argument I was addressing was not about the current team. The argument was that we were objectively poorly run the last 3 years. There is no argument we have been run well the past 3 years. We have zero playoff appearances, the highest draft pick we made was 9th and we sold low on the previous core. We have done some solid things during that time but our expected outcome given our record is well below average.

I just said we did well with the Pascal and OG trades. Why should I have to repeat myself? Say something once, don't say it again.

Do you honestly think Masai and Bobby were too incompetent or stupid to trade them for what you deem to be more value at what you deem to be a better time? Who the hell is some rando on a chat board to criticize them? What inside info do you have?

Fred - what was Raps management supposed to do? Having made the decision - I'm sure after a consult with ownership - to go for the play-in 2023, we weren't gonna trade him for crap at the deadline. And we sure weren't gonna pay him $40+ mill AAV that summer. So he walked. That's life in the big city. We had done well with Fred out of the lineup toward the end of the 2022 season, and in winning two games against the Sixers - despite Scottie being hobbled and OG being his usual meh in the playoffs. So Fred leaving gave us cap flexibity - including the ability to bring in Dennis (who looked pretty good against the Knicks this spring).

Bottom line - I like this current team. CMB and Walter look like exciting young players. We might be able to help BI with his health, the way we helped Kawhi in 2019. So I can't very well discredit the people responsible. You obviously don't like this team. Well ... go dwell in your negativity then.

[bballsparkin]

Now that Orlando has officially maxed Banchero, can we now consider Orlando another team screwed by the aprons? Banchero's max is just the 25% of cap one for now. I imagine it would bump to 30% if he is all-NBA this season. But even at 25%, the Magic will be spending $155M on 4 players in 2026-27, and growing in the following seasons.

In addition, 3 of the 4 are locked in for 5 years, and the other, Bane is locked in for 4 years.

If they don't perform, some of those contracts are going to be very difficult to move and get a lot of value back.

I don't like bigs who get paid top dollar and can't defend well unless it's a player like Dirk.

[bballsparkin]

Look around the current trade landscape of the league and tell me we did well with the OG and Siakam trades.

Given what should have happened we have been well below average in terms of outcomes. We got the lowest possible returns for guys like OG and Siakam AND just about the lowest possible returns in the draft for a team that missed the playoffs 3 years in a row. Just be objective for a minute and tell me that you would have been happy with this outcome if I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row: 13th pick, no pick, 9th pick. Our drsdr outcomes have been solid for the bad positions we put ourselves in. That doesn’t mean we’ve done a good job.

This retconning of “Siakam and OG didn’t have value” is nuts. Both guys got $40m a year from respected front offices. Same with FVV (who I noticed you conspicuously left out). All of these guys got big contracts from well run teams. But sure, they must not have had “value” around the league. It must be a fluke they all got large deals.

Yeah, you’ve seen worse decision but that does not by default mean we made “good” decisions. This isn’t just a Bill Simmons thing. The majority of the NBA podcast world has been questioning what we’ve been doing. This includes more respected analysts like Zach Lowe and John Hollinger. Same with the GB. The consensus outside of this board is that we’ve done a questionable job.

Here’s a thought exercise to hammer things home: imagine it’s the summer of 2028 and Barnes, Ingram and IQ are no longer on the team. The best draft asset we got for any of them was the 20th pick in 2026 and with our own picks we ended up drafting 13th in 2026 and 9th in 2028. You would 100% say “what the hell happened?” This is exactly what happened with us losing FVV, OG and Siakam.

They went the half way route like GSW did. On the flip side, at least they never mortgaged the future with win now trades. Some may put the Poeltl trade in that category but at least he's been retained long term.

[Rapsalot]

If you are a tax team and all 5 starters are on multi year deals and you have not even made a playin let alone a playoff. Your team has to prove them wrong.

To me IQ and BI were over pays that has lead to tax issue.

[ConSarnit]

Poeltl trade was a fork in the road decision. Arguments both ways. Masai has basically admitted he perhaps should have made a different decision, but wanted to give it one more shot with the reunited bench mob.

But one questionable decision does not mean the team was "badly managed". In every other respect - especially in the draft - it is a well managed team. Pascal for BI, Ochai and JaKobe (and the cap space to acquire Shead) is not a bad set of transactions on its face, and history could look favourably on it. OG is an excellent defensive player (when healthy) but is NOT a difference maker, RJ, IQ and even Mogbo collectively give us WAY more depth than we had before, and can be fine players in their own right.

And we still have Poeltl. An above average C on a decent contract for the long term. I've seen WAY worse decisions/outcomes.

Look around the current trade landscape of the league and tell me we did well with the OG and Siakam trades.

Given what should have happened we have been well below average in terms of outcomes. We got the lowest possible returns for guys like OG and Siakam AND just about the lowest possible returns in the draft for a team that missed the playoffs 3 years in a row. Just be objective for a minute and tell me that you would have been happy with this outcome if I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row: 13th pick, no pick, 9th pick. Our drsdr outcomes have been solid for the bad positions we put ourselves in. That doesn’t mean we’ve done a good job.

This retconning of “Siakam and OG didn’t have value” is nuts. Both guys got $40m a year from respected front offices. Same with FVV (who I noticed you conspicuously left out). All of these guys got big contracts from well run teams. But sure, they must not have had “value” around the league. It must be a fluke they all got large deals.

Yeah, you’ve seen worse decision but that does not by default mean we made “good” decisions. This isn’t just a Bill Simmons thing. The majority of the NBA podcast world has been questioning what we’ve been doing. This includes more respected analysts like Zach Lowe and John Hollinger. Same with the GB. The consensus outside of this board is that we’ve done a questionable job.

Here’s a thought exercise to hammer things home: imagine it’s the summer of 2028 and Barnes, Ingram and IQ are no longer on the team. The best draft asset we got for any of them was the 20th pick in 2026 and with our own picks we ended up drafting 13th in 2026 and 9th in 2028. You would 100% say “what the hell happened?” This is exactly what happened with us losing FVV, OG and Siakam.

What suppressed Pascal and OGs trade values was the fact they both were expecting huge payouts, that teams were reluctant to offer. The Pacers and Knicks were willing to do those extensions, hence the trades.

And because of Fred's expected salary demands, he had virtually no trade market. He lucked out because the Rockets hired Ime, who preferred to toss the excess cash the Rockets had for 2 years at Fred instead of Harden.

I contended at the time that this exact scenario was likely with especially both FVV and OG. Both are excellent plug and play guys that fit on any team. Both were prime candidates for overpays and as such we should have moved them earlier. There was no path for us to pay all of FVV/OG/Siakam/ Poeltl and eventually Barnes. Holding onto all of them was too big of a risk given that they were all UFA’s and that risk played out, especially with FVV getting poached for a contract we couldn’t match. There were no reports of Fred’s salary demands causing issues. Had HOU not made a balloon offer he still would have commanded $30m/year. His value was low because he was an expiring UFA and a player who fit well on teams with cap space (HOU, ORL and DET).

We also heard rumblings of OG wanting a bigger role (there are also murmurs this is happening in NYK too). He was a threat to walk given that he reportedly wanted a bigger role (and the fact that he is a player archetype every teams wants). I’ll agree that the market for Siakam was colder given his fit issues.

Having 3 (4 if you include Trent) of your top 6 guys being UFA’s in a 1 year period created a situation where bringing all 4 back was unlikely. This doesn’t even touch on the fact that we should have moved these guys earlier (prior to the 2023 trade deadline) when it was clear the team wasn’t going anywhere (we were 5 games under .500 before the Poeltl trade).

[ConSarnit]

Look around the current trade landscape of the league and tell me we did well with the OG and Siakam trades.

Given what should have happened we have been well below average in terms of outcomes. We got the lowest possible returns for guys like OG and Siakam AND just about the lowest possible returns in the draft for a team that missed the playoffs 3 years in a row. Just be objective for a minute and tell me that you would have been happy with this outcome if I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row: 13th pick, no pick, 9th pick. Our drsdr outcomes have been solid for the bad positions we put ourselves in. That doesn’t mean we’ve done a good job.

This retconning of “Siakam and OG didn’t have value” is nuts. Both guys got $40m a year from respected front offices. Same with FVV (who I noticed you conspicuously left out). All of these guys got big contracts from well run teams. But sure, they must not have had “value” around the league. It must be a fluke they all got large deals.

Yeah, you’ve seen worse decision but that does not by default mean we made “good” decisions. This isn’t just a Bill Simmons thing. The majority of the NBA podcast world has been questioning what we’ve been doing. This includes more respected analysts like Zach Lowe and John Hollinger. Same with the GB. The consensus outside of this board is that we’ve done a questionable job.

Here’s a thought exercise to hammer things home: imagine it’s the summer of 2028 and Barnes, Ingram and IQ are no longer on the team. The best draft asset we got for any of them was the 20th pick in 2026 and with our own picks we ended up drafting 13th in 2026 and 9th in 2028. You would 100% say “what the hell happened?” This is exactly what happened with us losing FVV, OG and Siakam.

They went the half way route like GSW did. On the flip side, at least they never mortgaged the future with win now trades. Some may put the Poeltl trade in that category but at least he's been retained long term.

I’m still willing to give the FO a chance (though I’m a little skeptical as we’ll have to find out how much Masai was responsible for our successes). I don’t hate all of the moves. Ingram was a cheap flier. At worst I imagine we’d be able to recoup what we traded for him if things go south. I don’t think we have any unmovable contracts. I just don’t think the current roster has much upside (outside of some of the young guys popping). We are in an average position going forward. No anchor contracts (in theory) and we own all our draft picks. I still don’t think that means we’ve been well run that past 3 years.

[Mak]

If you are a tax team and all 5 starters are on multi year deals and you have not even made a playin let alone a playoff. Your team has to prove them wrong.

To me IQ and BI were over pays that has lead to tax issue.

People hate every single contract Raptors sign. Go back and see how people thought Derozan, Lowry and Tross were overpaid. One of those people could even be you.

[JB7]

Look around the current trade landscape of the league and tell me we did well with the OG and Siakam trades.

Given what should have happened we have been well below average in terms of outcomes. We got the lowest possible returns for guys like OG and Siakam AND just about the lowest possible returns in the draft for a team that missed the playoffs 3 years in a row. Just be objective for a minute and tell me that you would have been happy with this outcome if I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row: 13th pick, no pick, 9th pick. Our drsdr outcomes have been solid for the bad positions we put ourselves in. That doesn’t mean we’ve done a good job.

This retconning of “Siakam and OG didn’t have value” is nuts. Both guys got $40m a year from respected front offices. Same with FVV (who I noticed you conspicuously left out). All of these guys got big contracts from well run teams. But sure, they must not have had “value” around the league. It must be a fluke they all got large deals.

Yeah, you’ve seen worse decision but that does not by default mean we made “good” decisions. This isn’t just a Bill Simmons thing. The majority of the NBA podcast world has been questioning what we’ve been doing. This includes more respected analysts like Zach Lowe and John Hollinger. Same with the GB. The consensus outside of this board is that we’ve done a questionable job.

Here’s a thought exercise to hammer things home: imagine it’s the summer of 2028 and Barnes, Ingram and IQ are no longer on the team. The best draft asset we got for any of them was the 20th pick in 2026 and with our own picks we ended up drafting 13th in 2026 and 9th in 2028. You would 100% say “what the hell happened?” This is exactly what happened with us losing FVV, OG and Siakam.

What suppressed Pascal and OGs trade values was the fact they both were expecting huge payouts, that teams were reluctant to offer. The Pacers and Knicks were willing to do those extensions, hence the trades.

And because of Fred's expected salary demands, he had virtually no trade market. He lucked out because the Rockets hired Ime, who preferred to toss the excess cash the Rockets had for 2 years at Fred instead of Harden.

I contended at the time that this exact scenario was likely with especially both FVV and OG. Both are excellent plug and play guys that fit on any team. Both were prime candidates for overpays and as such we should have moved them earlier. There was no path for us to pay all of FVV/OG/Siakam/ Poeltl and eventually Barnes. Holding onto all of them was too big of a risk given that they were all UFA’s and that risk played out, especially with FVV getting poached for a contract we couldn’t match. There were no reports of Fred’s salary demands causing issues. Had HOU not made a balloon offer he still would have commanded $30m/year. His value was low because he was an expiring UFA and a player who fit well on teams with cap space (HOU, ORL and DET).

We also heard rumblings of OG wanting a bigger role (there are also murmurs this is happening in NYK too). He was a threat to walk given that he reportedly wanted a bigger role (and the fact that he is a player archetype every teams wants). I’ll agree that the market for Siakam was colder given his fit issues.

Having 3 (4 if you include Trent) of your top 6 guys being UFA’s in a 1 year period created a situation where bringing all 4 back was unlikely. This doesn’t even touch on the fact that we should have moved these guys earlier (prior to the 2023 trade deadline) when it was clear the team wasn’t going anywhere (we were 5 games under .500 before the Poeltl trade).

My point on Fred was, going into FA (most likely expecting more than what he was getting paid at the time ~$20M) he was not commanding anything on the trade market, so Masai held onto him hoping to sign him to a deal in the $30M range. FVV got lucky, and Houston chose to spend their cap space on him for 2 years.

OG was clearly wanting a larger role and more money. He was another player Masai was trying to hold onto because of his impact on winning. Unfortunately he was forced to make a deal, and got a good return.

In terms of Pascal, I think once he proved he couldn't be the #1 option, and the team had Scottie, a younger replacement, Masai was looking to move Pascal for a couple of years. I think the interest in both Durant and Dame was with Pascal as the trade chip going back, and neither team was all that interested in Pascal. So it was Masai searching for a deal for Pascal. Pascal screwed some of the speculated deals up by going to the media and talking about not signing long term with certain teams (Hawks), and then ultimately helped direct his way to Indy, because they were willing to max him.

Ultimately, Masai's big mistake on these three probably goes back to Pascal getting a max deal his first contract outside of his rookie deal. Masai probably believed in him as being the one with the most potential to be a #1 or #2 option on the team, and that pissed off FVV and OG, who both were paid less on their 2nd deals, and both probably saw themselves on the same level as Pascal.

[Merit]

Exactly. I get the hate for the Jakob trade but people keep acting like they had some crystal ball to know for sure we would get Wemby. I can’t remember who else was drafted in the lottery in that year but I’m pretty sure none of them are better than Scottie. So Scottie as you said more likely than not would have still been our best player. I too also remember the offers that we heard for Pascal and OG a year earlier weren’t good. Do you remember what those offers were?

Poeltl trade was a fork in the road decision. Arguments both ways. Masai has basically admitted he perhaps should have made a different decision, but wanted to give it one more shot with the reunited bench mob.

But one questionable decision does not mean the team was "badly managed". In every other respect - especially in the draft - it is a well managed team. Pascal for BI, Ochai and JaKobe (and the cap space to acquire Shead) is not a bad set of transactions on its face, and history could look favourably on it. OG is an excellent defensive player (when healthy) but is NOT a difference maker, RJ, IQ and even Mogbo collectively give us WAY more depth than we had before, and can be fine players in their own right.

And we still have Poeltl. An above average C on a decent contract for the long term. I've seen WAY worse decisions/outcomes.

Look around the current trade landscape of the league and tell me we did well with the OG and Siakam trades.

Given what should have happened we have been well below average in terms of outcomes. We got the lowest possible returns for guys like OG and Siakam AND just about the lowest possible returns in the draft for a team that missed the playoffs 3 years in a row. Just be objective for a minute and tell me that you would have been happy with this outcome if I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row: 13th pick, no pick, 9th pick. Our drsdr outcomes have been solid for the bad positions we put ourselves in. That doesn’t mean we’ve done a good job.

This retconning of “Siakam and OG didn’t have value” is nuts. Both guys got $40m a year from respected front offices. Same with FVV (who I noticed you conspicuously left out). All of these guys got big contracts from well run teams. But sure, they must not have had “value” around the league. It must be a fluke they all got large deals.

Yeah, you’ve seen worse decision but that does not by default mean we made “good” decisions. This isn’t just a Bill Simmons thing. The majority of the NBA podcast world has been questioning what we’ve been doing. This includes more respected analysts like Zach Lowe and John Hollinger. Same with the GB. The consensus outside of this board is that we’ve done a questionable job.

Here’s a thought exercise to hammer things home: imagine it’s the summer of 2028 and Barnes, Ingram and IQ are no longer on the team. The best draft asset we got for any of them was the 20th pick in 2026 and with our own picks we ended up drafting 13th in 2026 and 9th in 2028. You would 100% say “what the hell happened?” This is exactly what happened with us losing FVV, OG and Siakam.

Hold on a sec. The thing is, Barnes, Ingram, IQ, RJ, Ochai, Shead, Gradey, Jakobe, CWB, Chomche, Mogbo, Battle and Martin are all here. Plus all our 2 way guys and 905ers. What am I missing? We didn’t lose those dudes for nothing. We went from zero to deep in basically one year.

Like I continue to maintain, we lost FVV, a 5 win player for nothing. Zilch. Nada. He got a godfather offer that was unexpected because Harden was no longer Houston’s target once Ime Udoka got there. The issue was not extracting value from FVV in any capacity. Had we traded him or re-signed him, it’s a completely different team.

[Merit]

If you are a tax team and all 5 starters are on multi year deals and you have not even made a playin let alone a playoff. Your team has to prove them wrong.

To me IQ and BI were over pays that has lead to tax issue.

We haven’t even seen them (IQ/RJ/BI/Scottie/Jak) play together and you’ve already decided that they’re overpays? Those dudes have pride.

Okay then *shrug*

[ciueli]

I’m still willing to give the FO a chance (though I’m a little skeptical as we’ll have to find out how much Masai was responsible for our successes). I don’t hate all of the moves. Ingram was a cheap flier. At worst I imagine we’d be able to recoup what we traded for him if things go south. I don’t think we have any unmovable contracts. I just don’t think the current roster has much upside (outside of some of the young guys popping). We are in an average position going forward. No anchor contracts (in theory) and we own all our draft picks. I still don’t think that means we’ve been well run that past 3 years.

Yeah, we don't have players like Damian Lillard who just just got waived and stretched (thank god Masai and Bobby failed to trade for him) or Brad Beal who is likely close to being bought out, but RJ Barrett is turning out to be a difficult to move, they've been trying to offload him since the trade deadline and he's still on the team. I think it's clear that if they want to move him now they will have to use an asset to get off his money.

Ingram can absolutely become an unmovable contract if he continues to miss large chunks of the season or his production worsens, everyone here just assumes he will play 65+ games this season at positive value even though he's never done it in his entire career (only season he played 65+ games was his rookie season where he averaged 9.4 PPG). It's hard for me to understand why they signed a player to a $40M/year contract when he missed all but 18 games in a season due to an ankle sprain, something that should have been a serious injury.

[earthtone]

I'd actually like to hear your argument. In the past 3 years 7 teams have failed to win 100 combined games. We are one of those 7. Imagine I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and our clear best prospect was still Barnes, who was drafted in 2021. Our highest draft pick was 9th after missing the playoffs 3 years in a row.

If you think we haven't been poorly managed over the past 3 years you're not being objective. Our overall record and lack of high upside prospects are the proof. Not to mention waiting too long to move off our vets which resulted in sub-par returns (compared to the rest of the league) or flat out losing them for nothing (FVV).

Spark notes version on why I don’t think we’ve been poorly managed is that we’re about to enter a season with average to above average starters at every position in our starting five, and a very young and talented bench with room to grow.

It’s fair to dislike the moves but there’s nothing more ‘objective’ about having a negative view of the roster than there is for those who have a positive view.

We went through a rebuild and we’ve come out the otherside with an interesting and talented group of players. We’ll see how it fits together on court this season

You’re not addressing the correct argument. The argument I was addressing was not about the current team. The argument was that we were objectively poorly run the last 3 years. There is no argument we have been run well the past 3 years. We have zero playoff appearances, the highest draft pick we made was 9th and we sold low on the previous core. We have done some solid things during that time but our expected outcome given our record is well below average.

How can you separate the current roster from the moves we’ve made the past three years? If you like the current roster you must like the moves made to assemble it and vice-versa.

Playoff wins isn’t the metric of success I would use to determine if rebuilding years went well. If we end this season with zero playoff wins I’ll re-evaluate, but as of now I don’t mind that we took a step back, focused on development and talent acquisition, and have a pretty good roster to show for it.

[MoneyBall]

Exactly. I get the hate for the Jakob trade but people keep acting like they had some crystal ball to know for sure we would get Wemby. I can’t remember who else was drafted in the lottery in that year but I’m pretty sure none of them are better than Scottie. So Scottie as you said more likely than not would have still been our best player. I too also remember the offers that we heard for Pascal and OG a year earlier weren’t good. Do you remember what those offers were?

Poeltl trade was a fork in the road decision. Arguments both ways. Masai has basically admitted he perhaps should have made a different decision, but wanted to give it one more shot with the reunited bench mob.

But one questionable decision does not mean the team was "badly managed". In every other respect - especially in the draft - it is a well managed team. Pascal for BI, Ochai and JaKobe (and the cap space to acquire Shead) is not a bad set of transactions on its face, and history could look favourably on it. OG is an excellent defensive player (when healthy) but is NOT a difference maker, RJ, IQ and even Mogbo collectively give us WAY more depth than we had before, and can be fine players in their own right.

And we still have Poeltl. An above average C on a decent contract for the long term. I've seen WAY worse decisions/outcomes.

Look around the current trade landscape of the league and tell me we did well with the OG and Siakam trades.

Given what should have happened we have been well below average in terms of outcomes. We got the lowest possible returns for guys like OG and Siakam AND just about the lowest possible returns in the draft for a team that missed the playoffs 3 years in a row. Just be objective for a minute and tell me that you would have been happy with this outcome if I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row: 13th pick, no pick, 9th pick. Our drsdr outcomes have been solid for the bad positions we put ourselves in. That doesn’t mean we’ve done a good job.

This retconning of “Siakam and OG didn’t have value” is nuts. Both guys got $40m a year from respected front offices. Same with FVV (who I noticed you conspicuously left out). All of these guys got big contracts from well run teams. But sure, they must not have had “value” around the league. It must be a fluke they all got large deals.

Yeah, you’ve seen worse decision but that does not by default mean we made “good” decisions. This isn’t just a Bill Simmons thing. The majority of the NBA podcast world has been questioning what we’ve been doing. This includes more respected analysts like Zach Lowe and John Hollinger. Same with the GB. The consensus outside of this board is that we’ve done a questionable job.

Here’s a thought exercise to hammer things home: imagine it’s the summer of 2028 and Barnes, Ingram and IQ are no longer on the team. The best draft asset we got for any of them was the 20th pick in 2026 and with our own picks we ended up drafting 13th in 2026 and 9th in 2028. You would 100% say “what the hell happened?” This is exactly what happened with us losing FVV, OG and Siakam.

I remember when FVV was being made available at the trade deadline during his last year and the offers were horrendous.

The gamble Masai took was believing that Siakam- OG-FVV-Barnes could become a solid playoff team if he just went out and got a solid center and some depth. The gamble was a big flop and then was left having to trade his guys with expiring contracts looking to get a big pay raise.

[CPT]

I think one thing "experts" fail to recognize sometimes is that every market is different & every market has to build rosters in a way that works for that market. You can't hold them all to the same set of roster building norms.

What works for Miami, doesn't necessarily work for Toronto. What works for LAL, doesn't necessarily work for Indiana or Utah.

I mean… sure? I guess? If your motivation is to make excuses for poor performance on the part of management, you could say this, and it might even be true.

Why would Simmons, Russilo, or anyone take that into account when considering which teams are in the worst situations? If they did, wouldn’t that just make the situation even worse?

[Tripod]

I think one thing "experts" fail to recognize sometimes is that every market is different & every market has to build rosters in a way that works for that market. You can't hold them all to the same set of roster building norms.

What works for Miami, doesn't necessarily work for Toronto. What works for LAL, doesn't necessarily work for Indiana or Utah.

I mean… sure? I guess? If your motivation is to make excuses for poor performance on the part of management, you could say this, and it might even be true.

Why would Simmons, Russilo, or anyone take that into account when considering which teams are in the worst situations? If they did, wouldn’t that just make the situation even worse?

Not at all. It just means they don't get Tironto and the market and how they have to build.

History has shown that the Raps never get hauls on their players regardless of how good they are. People can blame Mgt but it's always been that way.

With Masai, media ALWAYS were saying Masai wants too much for his players, clearly fed this from other teams. But was he actually just looking for fair value? There was no rumors of any big offers for Siakam even with term...it was Bufkin and Griffin talk. Same with OG...it was 3 late 1sts that might not even convey. And look at how both, and Fred were looked at as Raps vs now when in US markets. Completely different. Christ people couldn't believe how good OG was once he started playing for the Knicks.

No UFA'S sign here...but trading for their rights and signing them has mostly worked out.

They don't get how the Raps use their cap space up even when not contending because the Raps consolidate, not add thru FA. They have to look for undervalued assets and try and build up their value to possibly keep, like Lowry and maybe BI, or use in a trade later on. It's just the Raps way.

History has shown under Masai that the Raps almost always are better than the US media and Vegas odds makers think we are. For now it's up to Bobby to keep showing the same. As constructed, this roster is going to show again the US knows little about the Raps. Such is life being in Canada.