Josh Giddey Thread 2.0

[WindyCityBorn]

I still wonder if we can just get the deal done with incentives. Like, let the base salary be $25 per year and then have it go up to $30 based on performance (I.E. being named an All-Star, making the playoffs, starting a certain number of games, etc.). That way both sides feel like they've won and from our side, you don't feel bad paying him that much if he's reaching those goals.

I don’t see why they couldn’t do that.

[WindyCityBorn]

Interesting discussion. I guess if I had one point to reiterate here, its that we started the process of building around Giddey 4 months ago. Its going to take at least two more years to see what that will look like. They aren't doing it all at once, but its impossible for me to understand how someone can say that is not what is happening. Admittedly its through KC, but the Bulls have basically acknowledged that the plan is to build a team that blends with Giddey's style of play.

Does that include getting a mobile rim protecting center? Definitely. Does the absence of one today 4 months into the rebuild mean we aren't going to get one? Of course not.

And really, I don't want all these needs addressed right now. That's exactly the kind of mistake I'd expect AK to make, but he hasn't made it. I want weaknesses for a year to limit our win total. I don't want to shore up that stuff this year any more than we already have. I suspect we will to some extent, because I still expect at least one trade. But ideally we just let this new core evolve for a year without any more artificial short term "solutions."

FWIW, if your view is just that we're going to build around Giddey, I have no problem doing that, and maybe I was misinterpreting your point.

I don't think we are presently built around Giddey, and I don't think any of our decisions to date are better or worse with Giddey here than without Giddey here. Nor do I think Giddey is a good enough or meaningful enough player that we should be thinkin around building around him.

However, next season, we will have a ton of options to do all kinds of things. Coby, Ayo, Collins, Huerter, Vuc, and Carter will all be gone (or need to be reupped) and we'll have an absolute ton of cap space. We'll be able to completely change almost everything in a year.

My preferred path would be to trade anyone that can give you picks this year (outside of Noa/Matas), and just be really bad then hopefully grab a franchise player in a draft that might have three or four of them, then use all your extra picks and reup with whatever market value you guys you want around Noa, Matas, your 2026 pick, your extra picks you picked up in trade, and roll from there without trying to build a unicorn roster around a flawed player.

I get we won't do that of course, but I think more or less four the past four seasons every year I said "this is what I would do" has been something that with hindsight, I still like more than what we actually did.

Being as bad as possible simply not worth it anymore with how the lottery works now.

[Infinity2152]

The Bulls are not building around Giddey, lmao! They're risking alienating him for a few mill right now. Over $30 mill, a little more than half of what guys get who teams are built around. What does build around Giddey even mean? Do you prioritize shooting or athleticism? You need him to be able to pass to shooters, but you also need guys to catch oops. More bigs or smalls? You need small fast guys in transitions, but bigs are better finishers. Who have we added since Giddey's been here? Tre Jones, another PG. Noa Essensgue, a non shooter who's a bad fit with Giddey if both can't shoot consistently, who else? Okoro? We literally had no defensive wing except Pat Will, who's played PF the whole time. Huerter, bad defensively. Collins, bad shooter and not really a rim runner or super athletic.

The only thing you need to plan around Giddey imo is you need a defensive plus guard next to him. A SF who can guard POA covers that too. He can play with shooters or rim runners.

Coby's an excellent offensive fit next to Giddey, and a very bad defensive fit. There are two sides to the game. You can cover it up with a defensive SF, but the problem is Coby is a sub par defender and can't guard POA. It would be the same if you were prioritizing Coby, you'd want a defensive guard next to him too.

Nope.

Coby is a fine fit, provided that you play Giddey at the 3 defensively. AKME drafted Noa, who probably slots in as a combo forward like Matas - but Essengue isn’t close to ready. Anyway, I could see AKME having a dream of playing big, with Giddey being forced to defend on the perimeter (which will likely expose him - making him much worse on that end - but I also think AKME are effectively idiots). But that drafting of Noa and Dream of going big also fits with the leaked rumors of them being willing to part with both Coby and Ayo.

Anyway, on offense, Coby is actually a near ideal fit with Giddey - like Patty Mills in the Olympics. Gives you a 2nd ball handler and significant on or off ball 3 pt threat. Opens up lanes, safety valve / bailout, pressure valve, etc.

And Coby-Okoro-Giddey-Matas quartet, with a 3 and D center behind them, would be a very nice two way grouping. On an F to A scale, Coby is a C (and sometimes D) defender at the 1, Okoro will defend the best wing or guard and is a B+ defender at the 2, and we hope an A, Giddey is a C+ (and on occasion B-, B, even B+) defender at the 3, 3/4 (effort and matchup dependent), and Matas an incomplete but we hope ultimately any A defender at the 3/4.

That only works when the team you're playing has one good guard. They're not playing Giddey at the 3 I don't think, so that's a moot point. You're saying Coby is an ideal fit, in an ideal situation you don't have two below average defenders at PG, SG, and SF regardless of what position you call each. If you're talking about playing Giddey at SF, I think most of us are talking about PG, SG pairing, not SG/SF. It can work, but every bad defense player you have starting is a weak link. When you have two, that's a problem unless they're elite.

People are panning the Okoro trade, this only works with Okoro. It takes a specific type of SF, capable of guarding top point guards to make this work. We're not putting Matas on Curry so Giddey can guard the SF. Coby can't guard him. Probably not Noa or Williams either. Okoro can't guard Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland at the same time. SGA and Jalen Williams. Brunson, Anunoby and Mikal Bridges. Which of those three does Coby guard?

Again, there are two sides to the game. If your point guard and shooting guard are below average at guarding their positions, that's just not ideal. That's 50% of the game. If you need a special type of other player to make it work, clearly it's not a great fit. Imagine if we start Huerter at SF, he's 6'7". Is Coby and Giddey still a great pairing? Huerter's job should be guarding the 6'7" SF's. You realize some of us would like to see Matas play some SF. Who wants him guarding PG's? That's not fair or his job. Our projected forward pairing is Essengue and Matas, so one will probably get some SF.

And I think Giddey is a better defender than Coby and can guard SG's and SF's. Just not PG's. Most two-way SG's can guard PG's. More specifically, smaller, faster players. Not opposed to making Giddey full time SF, which would make the pairing much easier. Much easier finding PG's who can guards PGs, rather than SF's having to guard them.

Coby's an unrestricted free agent anyway. That's not ideal. Anybody who says he's not going to get overpaid is ignoring the market, AK's past free agent negotiations and are just making wishful guesses based on nothing. Certainly not based on what 26 year old players scoring 20+pts/gm get as UFA's when multiple teams have money. Nobody knows what kind of year he's going to have. He could get a max or near max offer.

[MGB8]

The Bulls are not building around Giddey, lmao! They're risking alienating him for a few mill right now. Over $30 mill, a little more than half of what guys get who teams are built around. What does build around Giddey even mean? Do you prioritize shooting or athleticism? You need him to be able to pass to shooters, but you also need guys to catch oops. More bigs or smalls? You need small fast guys in transitions, but bigs are better finishers. Who have we added since Giddey's been here? Tre Jones, another PG. Noa Essensgue, a non shooter who's a bad fit with Giddey if both can't shoot consistently, who else? Okoro? We literally had no defensive wing except Pat Will, who's played PF the whole time. Huerter, bad defensively. Collins, bad shooter and not really a rim runner or super athletic.

The only thing you need to plan around Giddey imo is you need a defensive plus guard next to him. A SF who can guard POA covers that too. He can play with shooters or rim runners.

Coby's an excellent offensive fit next to Giddey, and a very bad defensive fit. There are two sides to the game. You can cover it up with a defensive SF, but the problem is Coby is a sub par defender and can't guard POA. It would be the same if you were prioritizing Coby, you'd want a defensive guard next to him too.

Nope.

Coby is a fine fit, provided that you play Giddey at the 3 defensively. AKME drafted Noa, who probably slots in as a combo forward like Matas - but Essengue isn’t close to ready. Anyway, I could see AKME having a dream of playing big, with Giddey being forced to defend on the perimeter (which will likely expose him - making him much worse on that end - but I also think AKME are effectively idiots). But that drafting of Noa and Dream of going big also fits with the leaked rumors of them being willing to part with both Coby and Ayo.

Anyway, on offense, Coby is actually a near ideal fit with Giddey - like Patty Mills in the Olympics. Gives you a 2nd ball handler and significant on or off ball 3 pt threat. Opens up lanes, safety valve / bailout, pressure valve, etc.

And Coby-Okoro-Giddey-Matas quartet, with a 3 and D center behind them, would be a very nice two way grouping. On an F to A scale, Coby is a C (and sometimes D) defender at the 1, Okoro will defend the best wing or guard and is a B+ defender at the 2, and we hope an A, Giddey is a C+ (and on occasion B-, B, even B+) defender at the 3, 3/4 (effort and matchup dependent), and Matas an incomplete but we hope ultimately any A defender at the 3/4.

That only works when the team you're playing has one good guard. They're not playing Giddey at the 3 I don't think, so that's a moot point. You're saying Coby is an ideal fit, in an ideal situation you don't have two below average defenders at PG, SG, and SF regardless of what position you call each. If you're talking about playing Giddey at SF, I think most of us are talking about PG, SG pairing, not SG/SF. It can work, but every bad defense player you have starting is a weak link. When you have two, that's a problem unless they're elite.

People are panning the Okoro trade, this only works with Okoro. It takes a specific type of SF, capable of guarding top point guards to make this work. We're not putting Matas on Curry so Giddey can guard the SF. Coby can't guard him. Probably not Noa or Williams either. Okoro can't guard Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland at the same time. SGA and Jalen Williams. Brunson, Anunoby and Mikal Bridges. Which of those three does Coby guard?

Again, there are two sides to the game. If your point guard and shooting guard are below average at guarding their positions, that's just not ideal. That's 50% of the game. If you need a special type of other player to make it work, clearly it's not a great fit. Imagine if we start Huerter at SF, he's 6'7". Is Coby and Giddey still a great pairing? Huerter's job should be guarding the 6'7" SF's. You realize some of us would like to see Matas play some SF. Who wants him guarding PG's? That's not fair or his job. Our projected forward pairing is Essengue and Matas, so one will probably get some SF.

And I think Giddey is a better defender than Coby and can guard SG's and SF's. Just not PG's. Most two-way SG's can guard PG's. More specifically, smaller, faster players. Not opposed to making Giddey full time SF, which would make the pairing much easier. Much easier finding PG's who can guards PGs, rather than SF's having to guard them.

Coby's an unrestricted free agent anyway. That's not ideal. Anybody who says he's not going to get overpaid is ignoring the market, AK's past free agent negotiations and are just making wishful guesses based on nothing. Certainly not based on what 26 year old players scoring 20+pts/gm get as UFA's when multiple teams have money. Nobody knows what kind of year he's going to have. He could get a max or near max offer.

Giddey was defending the 3 last year - and when they went more fully to that is when he started improving on D. That is my big fear with selecting Essengue - that trying to force Giddey to play and defend a guard spot at 6’8 is going to bring out all the problems that got him benched in OKC - a guy you can target with much quicker players on the perimeter and tire out by having him chase - something far less of an issue against most 3s.

If “most people” are thinking of him as taking a 1 or 2 spot (on D) - then I think “most people” are morons. Nearly guaranteed failure.

But thinking of him in the Luka role, and Coby in the Kyrie role… much more workable.

Yes, Giddey isn’t Luka, and Coby isn’t Kyrie, but that is the framework. The 23-24 Mavs played Kyrie, Luka, PJ Washington as the nominal 4, Derrick Jones as a sort of defensive switchblade who would guard an opponent’s best offensive player (nominal 2 on D, but really matchup dependent) with Green or Tim Hardaway Jr. or Jaden Hardy taking a ton of the time at the 2 as well (and some at the 3, when Kyrie or Luka were out and only one was in playing the offensive point).

Bulls seem to be heading towards something similar - though it is far more fluid due to unproven leads, contract uncertainty, etc. oh, and no Lively/Gafford.

[jnrjr79]

Nope.

Coby is a fine fit, provided that you play Giddey at the 3 defensively. AKME drafted Noa, who probably slots in as a combo forward like Matas - but Essengue isn’t close to ready. Anyway, I could see AKME having a dream of playing big, with Giddey being forced to defend on the perimeter (which will likely expose him - making him much worse on that end - but I also think AKME are effectively idiots). But that drafting of Noa and Dream of going big also fits with the leaked rumors of them being willing to part with both Coby and Ayo.

Anyway, on offense, Coby is actually a near ideal fit with Giddey - like Patty Mills in the Olympics. Gives you a 2nd ball handler and significant on or off ball 3 pt threat. Opens up lanes, safety valve / bailout, pressure valve, etc.

And Coby-Okoro-Giddey-Matas quartet, with a 3 and D center behind them, would be a very nice two way grouping. On an F to A scale, Coby is a C (and sometimes D) defender at the 1, Okoro will defend the best wing or guard and is a B+ defender at the 2, and we hope an A, Giddey is a C+ (and on occasion B-, B, even B+) defender at the 3, 3/4 (effort and matchup dependent), and Matas an incomplete but we hope ultimately any A defender at the 3/4.

That only works when the team you're playing has one good guard. They're not playing Giddey at the 3 I don't think, so that's a moot point. You're saying Coby is an ideal fit, in an ideal situation you don't have two below average defenders at PG, SG, and SF regardless of what position you call each. If you're talking about playing Giddey at SF, I think most of us are talking about PG, SG pairing, not SG/SF. It can work, but every bad defense player you have starting is a weak link. When you have two, that's a problem unless they're elite.

People are panning the Okoro trade, this only works with Okoro. It takes a specific type of SF, capable of guarding top point guards to make this work. We're not putting Matas on Curry so Giddey can guard the SF. Coby can't guard him. Probably not Noa or Williams either. Okoro can't guard Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland at the same time. SGA and Jalen Williams. Brunson, Anunoby and Mikal Bridges. Which of those three does Coby guard?

Again, there are two sides to the game. If your point guard and shooting guard are below average at guarding their positions, that's just not ideal. That's 50% of the game. If you need a special type of other player to make it work, clearly it's not a great fit. Imagine if we start Huerter at SF, he's 6'7". Is Coby and Giddey still a great pairing? Huerter's job should be guarding the 6'7" SF's. You realize some of us would like to see Matas play some SF. Who wants him guarding PG's? That's not fair or his job. Our projected forward pairing is Essengue and Matas, so one will probably get some SF.

And I think Giddey is a better defender than Coby and can guard SG's and SF's. Just not PG's. Most two-way SG's can guard PG's. More specifically, smaller, faster players. Not opposed to making Giddey full time SF, which would make the pairing much easier. Much easier finding PG's who can guards PGs, rather than SF's having to guard them.

Coby's an unrestricted free agent anyway. That's not ideal. Anybody who says he's not going to get overpaid is ignoring the market, AK's past free agent negotiations and are just making wishful guesses based on nothing. Certainly not based on what 26 year old players scoring 20+pts/gm get as UFA's when multiple teams have money. Nobody knows what kind of year he's going to have. He could get a max or near max offer.

Giddey was defending the 3 last year - and when they went more fully to that is when he started improving on D. That is my big fear with selecting Essengue - that trying to force Giddey to play and defend a guard spot at 6’8 is going to bring out all the problems that got him benched in OKC - a guy you can target with much quicker players on the perimeter and tire out by having him chase - something far less of an issue against most 3s.

If “most people” are thinking of him as taking a 1 or 2 spot (on D) - then I think “most people” are morons. Nearly guaranteed failure.

But thinking of him in the Luka role, and Coby in the Kyrie role… much more workable.

Yes, Giddey isn’t Luka, and Coby isn’t Kyrie, but that is the framework. The 23-24 Mavs played Kyrie, Luka, PJ Washington as the nominal 4, Derrick Jones as a sort of defensive switchblade who would guard an opponent’s best offensive player (nominal 2 on D, but really matchup dependent) with Green or Tim Hardaway Jr. or Jaden Hardy taking a ton of the time at the 2 as well (and some at the 3, when Kyrie or Luka were out and only one was in playing the offensive point).

Bulls seem to be heading towards something similar - though it is far more fluid due to unproven leads, contract uncertainty, etc. oh, and no Lively/Gafford.

I think the case is more that Giddey will guard the least offensively threatening wing, not that he has a precise position as a 3 on defense. Although even that is a little imprecise. Others have noted he was matched up on Luka against the Lakers last year, presumably b/c Billy thinks you can have GIddey guard an offensively skilled wing as long as that person isn’t a speedster. Giddey is pretty tough/physical, so he can probably serve in that role to some degree.

[Infinity2152]

Don't think we disagree on most things about the situation. But to me, the "ideal" partner next to Giddey can guard the best guard. If Giddey is playing guard. I don't know why Giddey isn't seen as a point forward in the first place, especially with his rebounding and size. Okoro's kind of the substitute for having a defensive PG/SG with the two. None of our other SF's really fit that bag, unless Ayo plays SF.

The whole "Giddey can just guard the SF" while playing PG presumes you have an SF that can guard PG's. Most can't.

Also, I'm a huge optimist. You can check the majority of my posts. I like Coby White, and think he's a good great one-way player. Unrestricted free agency is just too unpredictable. Period. If Coby was an elite talent, like Ant Edwards or Booker, maybe you risk it. He's similar to Lou Williams and Jamal Crawford to me. Great scorer, but you want him as sixth man coming off the bench getting 30 minutes. And you don't want to max or near max him unless you have a team ready to compete right now. I think Coby will get paid more than $30 mil next year barring injury. Maybe more than $40 mill. I'd probably be cool with the $30 mill, but I think that's unlikely.

[MGB8]

That only works when the team you're playing has one good guard. They're not playing Giddey at the 3 I don't think, so that's a moot point. You're saying Coby is an ideal fit, in an ideal situation you don't have two below average defenders at PG, SG, and SF regardless of what position you call each. If you're talking about playing Giddey at SF, I think most of us are talking about PG, SG pairing, not SG/SF. It can work, but every bad defense player you have starting is a weak link. When you have two, that's a problem unless they're elite.

People are panning the Okoro trade, this only works with Okoro. It takes a specific type of SF, capable of guarding top point guards to make this work. We're not putting Matas on Curry so Giddey can guard the SF. Coby can't guard him. Probably not Noa or Williams either. Okoro can't guard Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland at the same time. SGA and Jalen Williams. Brunson, Anunoby and Mikal Bridges. Which of those three does Coby guard?

Again, there are two sides to the game. If your point guard and shooting guard are below average at guarding their positions, that's just not ideal. That's 50% of the game. If you need a special type of other player to make it work, clearly it's not a great fit. Imagine if we start Huerter at SF, he's 6'7". Is Coby and Giddey still a great pairing? Huerter's job should be guarding the 6'7" SF's. You realize some of us would like to see Matas play some SF. Who wants him guarding PG's? That's not fair or his job. Our projected forward pairing is Essengue and Matas, so one will probably get some SF.

And I think Giddey is a better defender than Coby and can guard SG's and SF's. Just not PG's. Most two-way SG's can guard PG's. More specifically, smaller, faster players. Not opposed to making Giddey full time SF, which would make the pairing much easier. Much easier finding PG's who can guards PGs, rather than SF's having to guard them.

Coby's an unrestricted free agent anyway. That's not ideal. Anybody who says he's not going to get overpaid is ignoring the market, AK's past free agent negotiations and are just making wishful guesses based on nothing. Certainly not based on what 26 year old players scoring 20+pts/gm get as UFA's when multiple teams have money. Nobody knows what kind of year he's going to have. He could get a max or near max offer.

Giddey was defending the 3 last year - and when they went more fully to that is when he started improving on D. That is my big fear with selecting Essengue - that trying to force Giddey to play and defend a guard spot at 6’8 is going to bring out all the problems that got him benched in OKC - a guy you can target with much quicker players on the perimeter and tire out by having him chase - something far less of an issue against most 3s.

If “most people” are thinking of him as taking a 1 or 2 spot (on D) - then I think “most people” are morons. Nearly guaranteed failure.

But thinking of him in the Luka role, and Coby in the Kyrie role… much more workable.

Yes, Giddey isn’t Luka, and Coby isn’t Kyrie, but that is the framework. The 23-24 Mavs played Kyrie, Luka, PJ Washington as the nominal 4, Derrick Jones as a sort of defensive switchblade who would guard an opponent’s best offensive player (nominal 2 on D, but really matchup dependent) with Green or Tim Hardaway Jr. or Jaden Hardy taking a ton of the time at the 2 as well (and some at the 3, when Kyrie or Luka were out and only one was in playing the offensive point).

Bulls seem to be heading towards something similar - though it is far more fluid due to unproven leads, contract uncertainty, etc. oh, and no Lively/Gafford.

I think the case is more that Giddey will guard the least offensively threatening wing, not that he has a precise position as a 3 on defense.

To some degree, but there are matchup considerations. Giddey guarded Luka, for instance. Size and speed matchup was favorable. Against the Celtics, you are much better off having him on Tatum or even Jaylen Brown than on Derrick White. When they go up against Orlando, you will likely be better off with him on Franz, or even Banchero, then trailing Bane or even Suggs.

For most matchups, he will be defending the 3, even when that player is better offensively than the 2 or the 4 or the 1… though, yes, sometimes it will make more sense, even taking into account team D considerations and physical strengths/ weaknesses, to have him primarily defend the other team ‘s 4 or 2, or even 1.

[MGB8]

Don't think we disagree on most things about the situation. But to me, the "ideal" partner next to Giddey can guard the best guard. If Giddey is playing guard. I don't know why Giddey isn't seen as a point forward in the first place, especially with his rebounding and size. Okoro's kind of the substitute for having a defensive PG/SG with the two. None of our other SF's really fit that bag, unless Ayo plays SF.

The whole "Giddey can just guard the SF" while playing PG presumes you have an SF that can guard PG's. Most can't.

Giddey is big enough to defend the 3 without a size disadvantage and can hold his own physically with most. Coby, when playing, defaults at defending the opposing 1, though is big enough to man up many opposing 2s. So all you need is a 2 who can primarily defend most 2, ideally being both big and fast enough to enable matchup cross-switches when warranted - and play the SF role on offense - where, with Giddey and Coby being your primary ball handlers and creators, and Matas being the 3rd guy, means likely 3&D, maybe a bit more… meaning a guy like Okoro, or Lonzo when healthy with his off ball play, or Terry if that shot improves and stabilizes another step or so… would be perfectly fine.

[Infinity2152]

Don't think we disagree on most things about the situation. But to me, the "ideal" partner next to Giddey can guard the best guard. If Giddey is playing guard. I don't know why Giddey isn't seen as a point forward in the first place, especially with his rebounding and size. Okoro's kind of the substitute for having a defensive PG/SG with the two. None of our other SF's really fit that bag, unless Ayo plays SF.

The whole "Giddey can just guard the SF" while playing PG presumes you have an SF that can guard PG's. Most can't.

Giddey is big enough to defend the 3 without a size disadvantage and can hold his own physically with most. Coby, when playing, defaults at defending the opposing 1, though is big enough to man up many opposing 2s. So all you need is a 2 who can primarily defend most 2, ideally being both big and fast enough to enable matchup cross-switches when warranted - and play the SF role on offense - where, with Giddey and Coby being your primary ball handlers and creators, and Matas being the 3rd guy, means likely 3&D, maybe a bit more… meaning a guy like Okoro, or Lonzo when healthy with his off ball play, or Terry if that shot improves and stabilizes another step or so… would be perfectly fine.

We're playing semantics. it appears Giddey will be playing PG and Coby will be playing SG. So the only way to have POA defense on a PG effectively is to play a SF that can do that. We can make up whatever lineups we want, but in all likelihood the lineup is Giddey, Coby, Okoro, Matas, Vucevic. It works with Okoro at SF. It does not work with Matas or Noa at SF. It can work with Tre Jones at PG and Giddey and Coby on the floor, but now both your PG's are in, so who's replacing them? Not saying it can't work. It requires conditions to work. The Giddey/White combination is a tough combination defensively. If either were a great defender at guarding EITHER guard position, it would not be so bad. I can't understand how it makes sense to ignore defense after that Finals. Our 2's are Coby White and Kevin Huerter. We don't have a 2 who can primarily defend most 2's because we have White.

That's ignoring the fact that counting on re-signing a non-elite UFA is never ideal. If you know a guy is a max player, you don't care if you have to max him in the summer. This team could look surprisingly good this year. Or if Vucevic is gone, we lose more games but Coby averages 25-27 pts with all the extra available shots.

Let's be real. Coby's really a scoring PG who doesn't pass more than a SG. He likes to be on-ball, initiate the offense, lot of ballhandling, doesn't look for screens. If you had to compare his game to Steph or Klay, which would be closer? So I see where the defensive 2 could play. Thinking long term success, just want stronger defenders. Defense wins championships.

[dougthonus]

The Bulls are building a team that caters to the guy who is going to run the show. You don’t like it because you don’t like the player, okay. But that’s what is happening. The only thing that makes no sense to me about your posts is the refusal to accept that it’s happening. I don’t get that.

Just for clarity, I'm not stating an opinion on this topic. I'm not refusing to accept it is happening. I'm saying no moves made are better or worse due to Giddey. They could be due to Giddey, they could be due to other reasons. Also, this point isn't actually important to me at all one way or the other.

I'm generally discussing the question "How much would Doug Thonus pay Josh Giddey if he ran the Bulls?" (25M) and assuming you are countering with "How much would DuckIII pay Giddey if he ran the Bulls?" (I infer 30m?). The answer to my question is not moved one way or the other by our recent roster moves as I like them whether Josh is on the roster or not. The answer to your question may or may not be moved by our recent roster moves, that's up to you.

This point you are making feels far more relevant to these questions:
"How much will AK pay Giddey?"
"How much leverage does Giddey have?"

Which are really sort of the same question wrapped up in different language, because whatever AK pays will be the same point as the leverage Giddey has to maximize his payment. FWIW, my answer to that question is that I think he'll get 28M AAV. I did a different post about the relative risks and rewards and break even points on the qualifying offer, and I think 27-28M is the inflection point of the various leverage range of both AK and Giddey.

[dougthonus]

Being as bad as possible simply not worth it anymore with how the lottery works now.

I agree generally speaking, but the lottery wasn't the primary reason I was making my suggestion, it was just a piece of it.

[dougthonus]

To some degree, but there are matchup considerations. Giddey guarded Luka, for instance. Size and speed matchup was favorable. Against the Celtics, you are much better off having him on Tatum or even Jaylen Brown than on Derrick White. When they go up against Orlando, you will likely be better off with him on Franz, or even Banchero, then trailing Bane or even Suggs.

Why would you think he is better on Tatum or Brown than White? I think you'd put him on whoever is going to naturally play with the ball in their hands the least and take the fewest shots, so if they want to exploit him as a match up, they're doing so with the guy you would rather have taking shots than the guy whom is their dominant offensive player.

For most matchups, he will be defending the 3, even when that player is better offensively than the 2 or the 4 or the 1… though, yes, sometimes it will make more sense, even taking into account team D considerations and physical strengths/ weaknesses, to have him primarily defend the other team ‘s 4 or 2, or even 1.

I'd guess for most matchups you simply want him guarding a guy who doesn't touch the ball as much rather than a specific position.

[League Circles]

Don't think we disagree on most things about the situation. But to me, the "ideal" partner next to Giddey can guard the best guard. If Giddey is playing guard. I don't know why Giddey isn't seen as a point forward in the first place, especially with his rebounding and size. Okoro's kind of the substitute for having a defensive PG/SG with the two. None of our other SF's really fit that bag, unless Ayo plays SF.

The whole "Giddey can just guard the SF" while playing PG presumes you have an SF that can guard PG's. Most can't.

Giddey is big enough to defend the 3 without a size disadvantage and can hold his own physically with most. Coby, when playing, defaults at defending the opposing 1, though is big enough to man up many opposing 2s. So all you need is a 2 who can primarily defend most 2, ideally being both big and fast enough to enable matchup cross-switches when warranted - and play the SF role on offense - where, with Giddey and Coby being your primary ball handlers and creators, and Matas being the 3rd guy, means likely 3&D, maybe a bit more… meaning a guy like Okoro, or Lonzo when healthy with his off ball play, or Terry if that shot improves and stabilizes another step or so… would be perfectly fine.

We're playing semantics. it appears Giddey will be playing PG and Coby will be playing SG. So the only way to have POA defense on a PG effectively is to play a SF that can do that. We can make up whatever lineups we want, but in all likelihood the lineup is Giddey, Coby, Okoro, Matas, Vucevic. It works with Okoro at SF. It does not work with Matas or Noa at SF. It can work with Tre Jones at PG and Giddey and Coby on the floor, but now both your PG's are in, so who's replacing them? Not saying it can't work. It requires conditions to work. The Giddey/White combination is a tough combination defensively. If either were a great defender at guarding EITHER guard position, it would not be so bad. I can't understand how it makes sense to ignore defense after that Finals. Our 2's are Coby White and Kevin Huerter. We don't have a 2 who can primarily defend most 2's because we have White.

That's ignoring the fact that counting on re-signing a non-elite UFA is never ideal. If you know a guy is a max player, you don't care if you have to max him in the summer. This team could look surprisingly good this year. Or if Vucevic is gone, we lose more games but Coby averages 25-27 pts with all the extra available shots.

Let's be real. Coby's really a scoring PG who doesn't pass more than a SG. He likes to be on-ball, initiate the offense, lot of ballhandling, doesn't look for screens. If you had to compare his game to Steph or Klay, which would be closer? So I see where the defensive 2 could play. Thinking long term success, just want stronger defenders. Defense wins championships.

It's simple to me, this is our likely and wise starting lineup projection:

5: Smith (though I admit it may be Collins or even Vuc again)
4: Matas
3: Giddey
2: Okoro
1: Coby

Sure like MG88 says there will be some switching as all teams do, but this is the basic outlook.

Although long term I wouldn't be shocked to see Essengue replace Okoro as the defensive 2, or have him be the 4 and Matas be the 2.

I don't really think Giddey has ever, will ever, or should ever be an nba guard. Maybe if you define positions by offensive skillset/role, but I don't do that. To me position is nothing more than a relative score of where a guy fits in 5 man lineups on the quick/small to slow/long scale of 1 to 5. Any 5 man lineup where Josh Giddey is legitimately the second quickest guy is doomed to failure IMO. He's more of a 4 than a 1 or 2.

[Tetlak]

People are getting too caught up on individual defense and having guys being able to check superstars.

That's not how basketball works. Stars are gonna cook!

The way you play defense with this roster is with motor and intelligence and high level HELP defense, which theoretically we have with Matas and a developed Noa down the line. Obviously we don't know who our longterm center is, but we do know he ain't here yet.

Not every player on your roster needs to be a lockdown. I mean look at the two teams we just watched in the finals. Each side really only had one high level POA defender on the court, with a supporting cast of high motor, high IQ, high level help defenders.

[DASMACKDOWN]

People are getting too caught up on individual defense and having guys being able to check superstars.

That's not how basketball works. Stars are gonna cook!

The way you play defense with this roster is with motor and intelligence and high level HELP defense, which theoretically we have with Matas and a developed Noa down the line. Obviously we don't know who our longterm center is, but we do know he ain't here yet.

Not every player on your roster needs to be a lockdown. I mean look at the two teams we just watched in the finals. Each side really only had one high level POA defender on the court, with a supporting cast of high motor, high IQ, high level help defenders.

Yes its a team defense afterall.

Case in point, Caruso when he was with us, played masterful defense individually. But we were a bottom 5 defensive team. Put Caruso on a team with great team defense/help defenders, its a sure fire top defense.

The biggest hole is certainly at center. That would make a HUGE difference what we can do defensively. If would change us from a bottom 3rd defensive team to a top 3rd.

[Truebiscuit]

People are getting too caught up on individual defense and having guys being able to check superstars.

That's not how basketball works. Stars are gonna cook!

The way you play defense with this roster is with motor and intelligence and high level HELP defense, which theoretically we have with Matas and a developed Noa down the line. Obviously we don't know who our longterm center is, but we do know he ain't here yet.

Not every player on your roster needs to be a lockdown. I mean look at the two teams we just watched in the finals. Each side really only had one high level POA defender on the court, with a supporting cast of high motor, high IQ, high level help defenders.

Yes its a team defense afterall.

Case in point, Caruso when he was with us, played masterful defense individually. But we were a bottom 5 defensive team. Put Caruso on a team with great team defense/help defenders, its a sure fire top defense.

The biggest hole is certainly at center. That would make a HUGE difference what we can do defensively. If would change us from a bottom 3rd defensive team to a top 3rd.

If we could find a rim protecting center who can shoot 3's...

[jnrjr79]

The Bulls are building a team that caters to the guy who is going to run the show. You don’t like it because you don’t like the player, okay. But that’s what is happening. The only thing that makes no sense to me about your posts is the refusal to accept that it’s happening. I don’t get that.

Just for clarity, I'm not stating an opinion on this topic. I'm not refusing to accept it is happening. I'm saying no moves made are better or worse due to Giddey. They could be due to Giddey, they could be due to other reasons. Also, this point isn't actually important to me at all one way or the other.

I'm generally discussing the question "How much would Doug Thonus pay Josh Giddey if he ran the Bulls?" (25M) and assuming you are countering with "How much would DuckIII pay Giddey if he ran the Bulls?" (I infer 30m?). The answer to my question is not moved one way or the other by our recent roster moves as I like them whether Josh is on the roster or not. The answer to your question may or may not be moved by our recent roster moves, that's up to you.

This point you are making feels far more relevant to these questions:
"How much will AK pay Giddey?"
"How much leverage does Giddey have?"

Which are really sort of the same question wrapped up in different language, because whatever AK pays will be the same point as the leverage Giddey has to maximize his payment. FWIW, my answer to that question is that I think he'll get 28M AAV. I did a different post about the relative risks and rewards and break even points on the qualifying offer, and I think 27-28M is the inflection point of the various leverage range of both AK and Giddey.

Re: the bolded, is this because you think no moves are better or worse due to fit? That seems pretty obviously wrong to me. You could have the best 10 centers in the NBA on your team, but at some point, those moves would become ill-advised. Each individual deal might have its own merit, but they aren't good for your basketball team.

It seems everyone agrees you'll need specific types of players next to Giddey to make Giddey work as a long-term piece. That's a knock on Giddey's value to some extent, but it seems uncontroversially true.

[MrSparkle]

People are getting too caught up on individual defense and having guys being able to check superstars.

That's not how basketball works. Stars are gonna cook!

The way you play defense with this roster is with motor and intelligence and high level HELP defense, which theoretically we have with Matas and a developed Noa down the line. Obviously we don't know who our longterm center is, but we do know he ain't here yet.

Not every player on your roster needs to be a lockdown. I mean look at the two teams we just watched in the finals. Each side really only had one high level POA defender on the court, with a supporting cast of high motor, high IQ, high level help defenders.

Yep. Any team at this point that's gonna rely on some static ball-watching is simply doomed (the ex-Bulls, I mean Kings). Need really smart rotations and help defense.

I do think Matas/Noa's shot-blocking (and rebounding) is the right type of asset. Not sure how their feet will move against the hyper fast offenses though.

[dougthonus]

Re: the bolded, is this because you think no moves are better or worse due to fit? That seems pretty obviously wrong to me. You could have the best 10 centers in the NBA on your team, but at some point, those moves would become ill-advised. Each individual deal might have its own merit, but they aren't good for your basketball team.

It seems everyone agrees you'll need specific types of players next to Giddey to make Giddey work as a long-term piece. That's a knock on Giddey's value to some extent, but it seems uncontroversially true.

Sorry, I meant none of the moves we have made after trading for Giddey are specifically better or worse because we traded for Giddey. Those moves are generally:
S&T DDR
Trade Zach
Trade for Okoro
Sign Jalen Smith
Draft Matas, Noa
Resigning Pat

(unless I'm forgetting something)

None of these moves do I like more or less with Giddey on the roster or not on the roster, nor do I think any of them are particularly made vs an alternative move because Giddey is expected to be on the roster. I would expect if we did not have Giddey that we'd have still done all of these things.

[MGB8]

To some degree, but there are matchup considerations. Giddey guarded Luka, for instance. Size and speed matchup was favorable. Against the Celtics, you are much better off having him on Tatum or even Jaylen Brown than on Derrick White. When they go up against Orlando, you will likely be better off with him on Franz, or even Banchero, then trailing Bane or even Suggs.

Why would you think he is better on Tatum or Brown than White? I think you'd put him on whoever is going to naturally play with the ball in their hands the least and take the fewest shots, so if they want to exploit him as a match up, they're doing so with the guy you would rather have taking shots than the guy whom is their dominant offensive player.

For most matchups, he will be defending the 3, even when that player is better offensively than the 2 or the 4 or the 1… though, yes, sometimes it will make more sense, even taking into account team D considerations and physical strengths/ weaknesses, to have him primarily defend the other team ‘s 4 or 2, or even 1.

I'd guess for most matchups you simply want him guarding a guy who doesn't touch the ball as much rather than a specific position.

Giddey did a good job on Luka and has done a good job on a number of players. The difference with him on whether he does a good job or not is whether (a) he can “keep up” with the player, impacted both by the player’s short area speed, acceleration ability - both straight line and when turning - and how much movement they are involved with on the perimeter, plus (b) is he really out-sized (by a guy who knows how to use his size.

Item (b) is self explanatory (he ain’t effectively defending Mobley / Giannis).

Item (a) kind of boils down to whether the opposing player’s attributes and playing style take advantage of Giddey’s meh lateral quickness (and non-unique length). You out him on Tatum and he will do a credible job. Ditto DDR. They aren’t going to be forcing him to chase much, so it will be keeping decent position to stop driving lanes and such. White may well force him to chase - and he is going to have a hard time navigating to keep up with the faster player - opening up good looks from 3, driving lanes, and passing lanes. Brown is a closer call because of his explosion - but still likely a better matchup - an “ok” defended Brown + a well defended White is probably a better bet than a better defended Brown but White going off because he can exploit.

Here’s a tangential sort of situation that illustrate the impact of matchups - WCJ is, in general, better on D than Vuc. But Vuc does a much better job on bulky power centers than WCJ did (and seemingly still does). Now that is more substitution rather than assigning primary defensive assignment, but it is a similar sort of dynamic where need to factor players’ and opponents’ relative strengths and weaknesses.

Few teams have 2 really bad offensive players, generally only dealing with one. Depending on relative strengths / traits of that player, you would decide whether to put Giddey or Coby on him - which will do the better job, both individually and when thinking overall team defense impact.