Should we just (subtly) tank next season whilst Tatum is out ?

[JimmyPlopper]

I think tanking can take too much out of the soul of a team: the players and the fans. It sets a negative emotion out there that must be controlled or else it won't be worth it.

[redslastlaugh]

You look at the C's after Ainge's departure, we've got five drafts starting in 2021. The players we've acquired on draft night and signed to a standard roster contract:

Sam Hauser
Jordan Walsh
Baylor Scheierman
Hugo Gonzalez
JD Davison* (if we keep him for this upcoming season, signing on the last day of the last season, that doesn't count)

The front office after Danny's departure underwent a major change in direction and in those five drafts they have produced 4 rostered players. The C's just basically stopped rostering draft picks.

Sam Presti is doing a way better job of utilizing the draft than basically anybody else in the league right now.

Brads done an excellent job of acquiring players outside the draft. Hauser was an USFA. Luke, he developed. Quetta, developed.

The frustration with fan base is we want him to take a shot and get a potential star in draft. Brad seems
More content with finding low ceiling, high floor role players than taking a chance on a talent late in first round.

I kind of like what Brad is doing over trying to hit a HR with a pick.

I just think you need a steady stream of young talent coming in that you can develop. Guys like Garza and Minot, their previous team isn't offering them a contract, thats why we can get them on a minimum deal. They may become good Celtics players, sometimes they do, but when a team drafts and spends a few yrs with a player and then lets them walk, it's often a Jaden Springer situation.

You look at the two Finals teams when Doc was coach. KG, Paul, Ray were the stars of the team. Some supporting talent was acquired through free agency and trades: James Posey, Eddie House, Nate Robinson, Rasheed, etc. But the main supporting cast was guys the Celtics took in the draft in the 20s-40s pick area of the draft: Kendrick Perkins, Rajon Rondo, Tony Allen, Leon Powe and Glen Davis.

If you aren't drafting players you are picking among such a shallow pool of veterans who will sign for rookie-type minimum salaries. So it's just tough to get enough talent to build a team. And as well as the front office did in building the 2024 title team, it was so expensive that the run just didnt last that long when the payroll ran into the repeater taxes.

If you build a team in a way that is not financially sustainable, people think you're complaining. I'm not complaining, I'm glad Wyc/Irv had accrued such a huge appreciation in their investment as Celtics owners, that they could go ALL IN. But now, with new owners who aren't sitting on a $5 billion cap gain, I just think BY FAR the most likely path with the best chance of raising another banner is making more draft picks, picking the best player most likely to have the best career and sign them to a four yr rookie scale contract.

[itrsteve]

There's no subtile tank. Just play the guys that are out there, try to win and see what happens. Intentionally tanking is for loser franchises, that's not the Celtics.

This is a great year to see what talent emerges from the woodwork and build up trade value of guys who may have very little today.

[165bows]

Dallas tanked and then took their **** franchise to the finals the next year.

I am a grizzled veteran of the 2015 tank war arguments around here and one gap year could go a long long way unfortunately.

Sure a top 3 pick in a loaded draft is great but get a #9 pick, trade it for a lower good draft pick that still turns into a very good young player and a ton of other good assets is something that has Brad’s name all over it.

Or just draft a great player in the second quartile of the first round is fine too.

And this is someone that applauded the IT trade and the 2015 playoff run, and I’ll stand by an argument that the steady competitiveness of the franchise brought in way more pieces of the title team than almost anyone wants to acknowledge.

Great strategy.

Yup one bad year max.

[jmr07019]

Dallas tanked and then took their **** franchise to the finals the next year.

I am a grizzled veteran of the 2015 tank war arguments around here and one gap year could go a long long way unfortunately.

Sure a top 3 pick in a loaded draft is great but get a #9 pick, trade it for a lower good draft pick that still turns into a very good young player and a ton of other good assets is something that has Brad’s name all over it.

Or just draft a great player in the second quartile of the first round is fine too.

And this is someone that applauded the IT trade and the 2015 playoff run, and I’ll stand by an argument that the steady competitiveness of the franchise brought in way more pieces of the title team than almost anyone wants to acknowledge.

I can’t imagine Al Horford signing in Boston if they don’t trade of IT and make the playoffs.

[hugepatsfan]

I think tanking can take too much out of the soul of a team: the players and the fans. It sets a negative emotion out there that must be controlled or else it won't be worth it.

I agree with this but any bad emotion or whatever gets wiped out when Tatum comes back. That's an exciting, invigorating and energizing thing. There definitely is a culture issue when teams tank with no end in sight, but I think regardless of what happens with BOS next year, there will be high level of excitement and focus for 26-27 when Tatum is back. Obviously unless they start trading off guys to where the roster looks weak next year.

[jmr07019]

The Celtics are not trying their hardest to win. Look at the center rotation. It is a soft tank. If they were holding out Jaylen and White a significant number of games when they’re healthy I would call it a regular tank, nothing soft about it.

Someone brought up the Celtics succeeding with a Theis Kanter center rotation but I expect this years center rotation be quiet a bit worse than that. Theis was roughly the 20-25th best center in the league that season. Where do you expect Queta to be this year? I expect him to be closer to the 35th-40th best center. Some teams have two guys better than Queta. Dallas, San Antonio come to mind. Sometimes Queta gets absolutely cooked on defense and it’s really hard to win when your center is that bad. Celtics need Queta to take a major step forward.

[celticgreenie]

You look at the C's after Ainge's departure, we've got five drafts starting in 2021. The players we've acquired on draft night and signed to a standard roster contract:

Sam Hauser
Jordan Walsh
Baylor Scheierman
Hugo Gonzalez
JD Davison* (if we keep him for this upcoming season, signing on the last day of the last season, that doesn't count)

The front office after Danny's departure underwent a major change in direction and in those five drafts they have produced 4 rostered players. The C's just basically stopped rostering draft picks.

Sam Presti is doing a way better job of utilizing the draft than basically anybody else in the league right now.

Brads done an excellent job of acquiring players outside the draft. Hauser was an USFA. Luke, he developed. Quetta, developed.

The frustration with fan base is we want him to take a shot and get a potential star in draft. Brad seems
More content with finding low ceiling, high floor role players than taking a chance on a talent late in first round.

I kind of like what Brad is doing over trying to hit a HR with a pick.

I just think you need a steady stream of young talent coming in that you can develop. Guys like Garza and Minot, their previous team isn't offering them a contract, thats why we can get them on a minimum deal. They may become good Celtics players, sometimes they do, but when a team drafts and spends a few yrs with a player and then lets them walk, it's often a Jaden Springer situation.

You look at the two Finals teams when Doc was coach. KG, Paul, Ray were the stars of the team. Some supporting talent was acquired through free agency and trades: James Posey, Eddie House, Nate Robinson, Rasheed, etc. But the main supporting cast was guys the Celtics took in the draft in the 20s-40s pick area of the draft: Kendrick Perkins, Rajon Rondo, Tony Allen, Leon Powe and Glen Davis.

If you aren't drafting players you are picking among such a shallow pool of veterans who will sign for rookie-type minimum salaries. So it's just tough to get enough talent to build a team. And as well as the front office did in building the 2024 title team, it was so expensive that the run just didnt last that long when the payroll ran into the repeater taxes.

If you build a team in a way that is not financially sustainable, people think you're complaining. I'm not complaining, I'm glad Wyc/Irv had accrued such a huge appreciation in their investment as Celtics owners, that they could go ALL IN. But now, with new owners who aren't sitting on a $5 billion cap gain, I just think BY FAR the most likely path with the best chance of raising another banner is making more draft picks, picking the best player most likely to have the best career and sign them to a four yr rookie scale contract.

Minott asked Twolves to rescind their offer I believe.

[colincb]

No. The Cs aren't bad enough to have a reasonable chance to get a good draft pick, nor do they possess the drafting expertise that is prevalent among their fans, nor the luck in what is essentially a glorified crapshoot.

[WeLikeOurGuys]

The Celtics are not trying their hardest to win. Look at the center rotation. It is a soft tank. If they were holding out Jaylen and White a significant number of games when they’re healthy I would call it a regular tank, nothing soft about it.

Someone brought up the Celtics succeeding with a Theis Kanter center rotation but I expect this years center rotation be quiet a bit worse than that. Theis was roughly the 20-25th best center in the league that season. Where do you expect Queta to be this year? I expect him to be closer to the 35th-40th best center. Some teams have two guys better than Queta. Dallas, San Antonio come to mind. Sometimes Queta gets absolutely cooked on defense and it’s really hard to win when your center is that bad. Celtics need Queta to take a major step forward.

The Theis/Kanter rotation worked back then, not because those guys were great, but because you had a star like Jayson Tatum who could carry the load and make up for the ok players.

[fallguy]

Are we SURE a JB-led team is going to be good?

How will he look with defenses keying all their attention on him?

[165bows]

Are we SURE a JB-led team is going to be good?

How will he look with defenses keying all their attention on him?

JB leading the team is one thing, JB leading the team with no Horford at all is a whole other thing altogether.

[Hal14]

Are we SURE a JB-led team is going to be good?

How will he look with defenses keying all their attention on him?

No, we're not sure about that.

7 seed at best, especially given the holes on other parts of the roster. But I don't think we'll be bad enough to miss the play-in. As of now I'd say we're 7-10 range, somewhere in the play in tournament..

[phincsfan]

Without saying there gonna tank, simple DNP's for any type of injury would be the give away.

If JB starts off hot, does he make a case to get to 65 games? Or do they limit him from the start due to the knee surgery?

White is a player that plays through everything, I doubt that happens this season.

[Celts17Pride]

Are we SURE a JB-led team is going to be good?

How will he look with defenses keying all their attention on him?

JB leading the team is one thing, JB leading the team with no Horford at all is a whole other thing altogether.

JB leading the team is one thing, JB leading the team with no Horford, Porzingis, Kornet, Holiday, Tatum at all is a whole other thing altogether.

JB is set up for failure which will make all the Tatum stans (who are not even Celtics fans) happy

[2Mas]

We should def tank.

I think we'd be average if all goes well. But i assume JB & DWhite will miss time. & it gets bleak if they're not out there.

I say tank. Try to get the 12th seed. This is our 1yr to be bad. We should take advantage of it.

[Tyakack]

No. The Cs aren't bad enough to have a reasonable chance to get a good draft pick, nor do they possess the drafting expertise that is prevalent among their fans, nor the luck in what is essentially a glorified crapshoot.

Not so sure about that.

[Celts17Pride]

Are we SURE a JB-led team is going to be good?

How will he look with defenses keying all their attention on him?

JB-led team with no Tatum, Horford, Porzingis, Holiday or Kornet?

Celtics don't have to tank, it will happen naturally because of the defense.

Last year Celtics had an ORTG of 119.5 and DRTG of 110.1 for a net rating of 9.4

With all the losses the Celtics have had and the addition of Simons and Niang maybe the ORTG will be something like 114 (similiar to Atl, GS last year)

The defensive rating is going to take a huge hit, I'm guessing the (Kings) 115.5. That's a net rating of -1.5. If you look at last year standings -1.5 is Chicago Bulls range. Celtics are an easy 7-10 play-in team unless their defense surprises.

[165bows]

Are we SURE a JB-led team is going to be good?

How will he look with defenses keying all their attention on him?

JB-led team with no Tatum, Horford, Porzingis, Holiday or Kornet?

Celtics don't have to tank, it will happen naturally because of the defense.

Last year Celtics had an ORTG of 119.5 and DRTG of 110.1 for a net rating of 9.4

With all the losses the Celtics have had and the addition of Simons and Niang maybe the ORTG will be something like 114 (similiar to Atl, GS last year)

The defensive rating is going to take a huge hit, I'm guessing the (Kings) 115.5. That's a net rating of -1.5. If you look at last year standings -1.5 is Chicago Bulls range. Celtics are an easy 7-10 play-in team unless their defense surprises.

100% agree also in that this is the way to look at this. There is so much three point shooting on the team it will be easy to go on an above average offensive streak for awhile but there isn't enough to sustain it unless JB has a giant year which is just a lot to bank on.

Edit: the thing about the rest of them is that KP sort of stunk or was out for last year, outside of about a month. As for the rest, Tatum accounts for a massive loss, Holiday possibly could be off set to a decent degree if Simons stays and has a well above average stretch offensively, Horford kind of the low-key loss on D and Bball IQ, while Kornet, well he didn't play a ton (1361 minutes) he was effective and synergized well with everyone with the best net on-off on the team by far.

Long story short a ton of big personnel loses means this team will be a lot worse, although for last season's accounting alone idk how much KP is one of them.

[Celts17Pride]

Are we SURE a JB-led team is going to be good?

How will he look with defenses keying all their attention on him?

JB-led team with no Tatum, Horford, Porzingis, Holiday or Kornet?

Celtics don't have to tank, it will happen naturally because of the defense.

Last year Celtics had an ORTG of 119.5 and DRTG of 110.1 for a net rating of 9.4

With all the losses the Celtics have had and the addition of Simons and Niang maybe the ORTG will be something like 114 (similiar to Atl, GS last year)

The defensive rating is going to take a huge hit, I'm guessing the (Kings) 115.5. That's a net rating of -1.5. If you look at last year standings -1.5 is Chicago Bulls range. Celtics are an easy 7-10 play-in team unless their defense surprises.

100% agree also in that this is the way to look at this. There is so much three point shooting on the team it will be easy to go on an above average offensive streak for awhile but there isn't enough to sustain it unless JB has a giant year which is just a lot to bank on.

But I'm being generous in my opinion with a 115.5 defensive rating. This year's Celtics could be much worse (i.e. Hauser, Simons, Niang, Queta, Garza, Tillman)

I'm guessing Mazzulla figures something out so that the Celtics defense isn't embarrassing.