Would've 2011 Spurs changed the outcome? What was the main issue?

[QMemphis]

Feels like we're talking past each other. I just talked about the team getting better by trading him away, and you're coming back wanting me to acknowledge it was a huge disadvantage to be without him. Those two things, I think are mutually exclusive.

I think I should also emphasize that, at least for people like me, we're not making excuses for why the Spurs had an extreme upset loss, we're specifically pointing attention to Ginobili as a really, really big deal. How big of a deal? Well, I consider him to be have been a better basketball player than any player I can think of who wore a Grizzly uniform at any time since their start as an expansion team, and I say this someone who probably rates Gasol, Conley & Allen higher than most. It's not meant to bash the Grizzlies as a franchise, it's meant to illustrate how big of a deal I would say Ginobili was.

I'll say by contrast, Tony Parker? Meh, I'd prefer to have Conley. I'm not a super-Spurs guy here, I'm just really high on Ginobili compared to most.

I understand your point but don’t agree. Because you think the Grizz were better without Rudy doesn’t mean it was true. You have made clear your opinions and so have I but fact remains Grizz played without their 2nd best player and still made it to the 2nd round pushing OKC to 7 games. The excuse of Manu being injured changed things is just that an excuse.

Injury excuse is always an excuse, grizzlies beat the team in front of them and nobody can change that

However, there's no comparison between 2011 Manu to 2011 Rudy gay, if Manu didn't come back in game 2 the spurs would have been swept, Manu was the spurs best player and top 15 in the league that year, gay was probably not even the grizzlies 2nd best player

I’m not debating who is the better player. I am clearly stating that Grizz were missing their 2nd best player and if you don’t believe Rudy was the 2nd best who do you think was and why.

[QMemphis]

Feels like we're talking past each other. I just talked about the team getting better by trading him away, and you're coming back wanting me to acknowledge it was a huge disadvantage to be without him. Those two things, I think are mutually exclusive.

I think I should also emphasize that, at least for people like me, we're not making excuses for why the Spurs had an extreme upset loss, we're specifically pointing attention to Ginobili as a really, really big deal. How big of a deal? Well, I consider him to be have been a better basketball player than any player I can think of who wore a Grizzly uniform at any time since their start as an expansion team, and I say this someone who probably rates Gasol, Conley & Allen higher than most. It's not meant to bash the Grizzlies as a franchise, it's meant to illustrate how big of a deal I would say Ginobili was.

I'll say by contrast, Tony Parker? Meh, I'd prefer to have Conley. I'm not a super-Spurs guy here, I'm just really high on Ginobili compared to most.

I understand your point but don’t agree. Because you think the Grizz were better without Rudy doesn’t mean it was true. You have made clear your opinions and so have I but fact remains Grizz played without their 2nd best player and still made it to the 2nd round pushing OKC to 7 games. The excuse of Manu being injured changed things is just that an excuse.

Grizz were better without Gay though. He wasn't a good defender and was a black hole on offense. Him being out allowed the Grizz to embrace true "grit n grind" giving more touches to guys like Gasol and ZBo in the post, which improved the team.

That’s complete silliness to say the Grizz were better without Rudy. That makes as much sense as saying previous Grizz teams were better without Ja lol.

As I stated after trading Rudy we spent the better part of a decade trying to find someone to fill his shoes in Jeff Green and Chandler Parsons.

[maradro]

I understand your point but don’t agree. Because you think the Grizz were better without Rudy doesn’t mean it was true. You have made clear your opinions and so have I but fact remains Grizz played without their 2nd best player and still made it to the 2nd round pushing OKC to 7 games. The excuse of Manu being injured changed things is just that an excuse.

Injury excuse is always an excuse, grizzlies beat the team in front of them and nobody can change that

However, there's no comparison between 2011 Manu to 2011 Rudy gay, if Manu didn't come back in game 2 the spurs would have been swept, Manu was the spurs best player and top 15 in the league that year, gay was probably not even the grizzlies 2nd best player

I’m not debating who is the better player. I am clearly stating that Grizz were missing their 2nd best player and if you don’t believe Rudy was the 2nd best who do you think was and why.

Randolph was 1, allen 2 and I think id take gasol 3 over him as well.
gay was a young chucker, those 3 were the ones that made the grizzlies a tough defense first team. Theoretically gay fits alongside but in practice hes taking jumpshots away from Randolph who is more efficient

[QMemphis]

I want to remind all the fans that keep bringing up Manu’s injury the Grizzlies team did not have Rudy Gay due to injury as well the entire playoffs.

Regardless of what you think of him Rudy was a top 10 SF in the league at the time and would’ve provided even more scoring and size. Rudy also could’ve potentially returned had the Grizz been able to advance. Side-note: (He hit a game winner against the Heat that regular season as well).

I don’t think a lot of people think that. In no particular order:

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Paul Pierce
5. Luol Deng
6. Hedo Turkoglu
7. Iggy
8. Paul George
9. Lamar Odom
10. Shawn Marion
11. Shane Battier
12. AK47

Gay was healthy for the playoffs in 2012 and averaged 19 points, 7 rebounds, and 1 assist per game on 50.5 TS%, 14.6 PER, and the Grizzlies lost in the first round. Then the Grizzlies traded Gay away the next year and made the conference finals for the first time in franchise history.

Rudy Gay never won a playoff series in his career.

I’m not sure how you came up with this list but it is wildly inaccurate none the less. We talking about 2011, I will drop a link with Slam Magazine top 50 players that year for context. You are more than welcome to find a list that doesn’t list Rudy as one of the better players during that year.

The following year was the lockout year where ZBo tore his MCL in his knee 8 games into the season. He was back by the playoffs but was not himself after rushing back to play. Rudy was tasked with doing more than he needed to be doing. He was traded I believe the following season in a salary dump move. We then beat a Westbrookless OKC, Injured Clippers team and swept by the Spurs due to not being able to score (they just packed the paint).

[prophet_of_rage]

People ignore how good that Mavs teamnwas because it's cool to crap on Lebron for losing to them but the truth is that Mavs team was 2/3 in the West won one less game than the Heat overall while.playing in the West and demolished the Lakers, ending Kobe's quest for six and the Phil Jackson era in LA.

Rick Carlisle's coaching genius showed during that time. The Mavs didn't get lucky. Nobody was touching Dirk's offence from the high post and the short corner. Chandler would still shut down the rim and the Grizz didn't have anybody else to stretch the floor.

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The Mavs were the second oldest title winning team in history. Their recent postseason history leading up to 2011 was three first round losses - two of which came as a No. 1 or No. 2 - and a second round exit in a gentleman's sweep. And they were swept in the first round the year after.

They were one of the flukiest title winning teams of all time.

They had a perfect year. They were no fluke that year. Theybwere never going to be a dynasty but that was not an underdog team through the regular season or the playoffs.

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[QMemphis]

If the Grizz make it past the Thunder they would’ve beat the Mavs in the Conference Finals and beat the Heatles as the ultimate underdogs.

2011 1st round: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Trailblazers.

2011 2nd round: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Lakers.

2011 WCF: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Thunder.

2011 Finals: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Heat.

2025 Realgm: Dirk and the Mavs are lucky they didn’t face the Grizzlies, they were going to lose that series.

My post was a response to the original topic but sure I think the Grizz were a better team head up against the Mavericks. We were 3-0 in the regular season and played a brand of ball they wouldn’t have been comfortable with.

Those Heatle Teams struggled with the Pacers the most during that era. The Grizz were West version of that Pacers team.

[NZB2323]

If the Grizz make it past the Thunder they would’ve beat the Mavs in the Conference Finals and beat the Heatles as the ultimate underdogs.

2011 1st round: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Trailblazers.

2011 2nd round: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Lakers.

2011 WCF: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Thunder.

2011 Finals: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Heat.

2025 Realgm: Dirk and the Mavs are lucky they didn’t face the Grizzlies, they were going to lose that series.

My post was a response to the original topic but sure I think the Grizz were a better team head up against the Mavericks. We were 3-0 in the regular season and played a brand of ball they wouldn’t have been comfortable with.

Those Heatle Teams struggled with the Pacers the most during that era. The Grizz were West version of that Pacers team.

That’s just not true. The Mavs beat the Grizzlies 106-91 on Nov 10, 2010.

My point is the Mavs were overlooked every round and now they’re being overlooked again.

[NZB2323]

I want to remind all the fans that keep bringing up Manu’s injury the Grizzlies team did not have Rudy Gay due to injury as well the entire playoffs.

Regardless of what you think of him Rudy was a top 10 SF in the league at the time and would’ve provided even more scoring and size. Rudy also could’ve potentially returned had the Grizz been able to advance. Side-note: (He hit a game winner against the Heat that regular season as well).

I don’t think a lot of people think that. In no particular order:

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Paul Pierce
5. Luol Deng
6. Hedo Turkoglu
7. Iggy
8. Paul George
9. Lamar Odom
10. Shawn Marion
11. Shane Battier
12. AK47

Gay was healthy for the playoffs in 2012 and averaged 19 points, 7 rebounds, and 1 assist per game on 50.5 TS%, 14.6 PER, and the Grizzlies lost in the first round. Then the Grizzlies traded Gay away the next year and made the conference finals for the first time in franchise history.

Rudy Gay never won a playoff series in his career.

I’m not sure how you came up with this list but it is wildly inaccurate none the less. We talking about 2011, I will drop a link with Slam Magazine top 50 players that year for context. You are more than welcome to find a list that doesn’t list Rudy as one of the better players during that year.

The following year was the lockout year where ZBo tore his MCL in his knee 8 games into the season. He was back by the playoffs but was not himself after rushing back to play. Rudy was tasked with doing more than he needed to be doing. He was traded I believe the following season in a salary dump move. We then beat a Westbrookless OKC, Injured Clippers team and swept by the Spurs due to not being able to score (they just packed the paint).

In 2011 Rudy was 54th in PER, 81st in WS, 76th in WS/48, 30th in BPM, and 38th in VORP. The biggest weakness of those stats is they do a poor job of accounting for defense, where Gay wasn’t the best and they reward volume scorers, like Gay.

When the Grizzlies traded away Gay a lot of mainstream sports media, like Charles Barkley and Slam magazine said they would be worse. The opposite happened. The Grizzlies made it the furthest they ever had in the playoffs. They went from 41 wins to 56 wins, and proceeded to have three 50 win seasons in a row without Gay, and they never won 50 games with him. Gay never won a playoff series in his career.

As for a list of 50 better players from 2011, that’s pretty easy. In no order:

1. Dirk
2. Lebron
3. Derrick Rose
4. Durant
5. Dwight
6. Kobe
7. CP3
8. Westbrook
9. Gasol
10. Amare
11. Randolph
12. Duncan
13. Blake Griffin
14. Melo
15. Ginobili
16. Aldridge
17. Deron
18. Nash
19. KG
20. Horford
21. Bynum
22. David West
23. Tyson Chandler
24. Joakim Noah
25. Paul Pierce
26. Stephen Curry
27. Kevin Love
28. Wade
29. Nene
30. Al Jefferson
31. Bosh
32. Odom
33. Brook Lopez
34. Billups
35. Tony Allen
36. Shawn Marion
37. Rondo
38. Iggy
39. Harden
40. Marc Gasol
41. Kyle Lowry
42. AK47
43. Ray Allen
44. Ibaka
45. Bogut
46. Mike Conley
47. Luol Deng
48. Jrue Holiday
49. Gallinari
50. Jason Kidd

I can confidently say all those guys were better than Gay. And you know what? The Grizzlies agreed with me and traded him away and they were better for it.

[QMemphis]

2011 1st round: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Trailblazers.

2011 2nd round: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Lakers.

2011 WCF: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Thunder.

2011 Finals: Dirk and the Mavs are going to lose to the Heat.

2025 Realgm: Dirk and the Mavs are lucky they didn’t face the Grizzlies, they were going to lose that series.

My post was a response to the original topic but sure I think the Grizz were a better team head up against the Mavericks. We were 3-0 in the regular season and played a brand of ball they wouldn’t have been comfortable with.

Those Heatle Teams struggled with the Pacers the most during that era. The Grizz were West version of that Pacers team.

That’s just not true. The Mavs beat the Grizzlies 106-91 on Nov 10, 2010.

My point is the Mavs were overlooked every round and now they’re being overlooked again.

Overlooked that game we finished 2-1. I still like the Grizz chances in a series.

[QMemphis]

I don’t think a lot of people think that. In no particular order:

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Paul Pierce
5. Luol Deng
6. Hedo Turkoglu
7. Iggy
8. Paul George
9. Lamar Odom
10. Shawn Marion
11. Shane Battier
12. AK47

Gay was healthy for the playoffs in 2012 and averaged 19 points, 7 rebounds, and 1 assist per game on 50.5 TS%, 14.6 PER, and the Grizzlies lost in the first round. Then the Grizzlies traded Gay away the next year and made the conference finals for the first time in franchise history.

Rudy Gay never won a playoff series in his career.

I’m not sure how you came up with this list but it is wildly inaccurate none the less. We talking about 2011, I will drop a link with Slam Magazine top 50 players that year for context. You are more than welcome to find a list that doesn’t list Rudy as one of the better players during that year.

The following year was the lockout year where ZBo tore his MCL in his knee 8 games into the season. He was back by the playoffs but was not himself after rushing back to play. Rudy was tasked with doing more than he needed to be doing. He was traded I believe the following season in a salary dump move. We then beat a Westbrookless OKC, Injured Clippers team and swept by the Spurs due to not being able to score (they just packed the paint).

In 2011 Rudy was 54th in PER, 81st in WS, 76th in WS/48, 30th in BPM, and 38th in VORP. The biggest weakness of those stats is they do a poor job of accounting for defense, where Gay wasn’t the best and they reward volume scorers, like Gay.

When the Grizzlies traded away Gay a lot of mainstream sports media, like Charles Barkley and Slam magazine said they would be worse. The opposite happened. The Grizzlies made it the furthest they ever had in the playoffs. They went from 41 wins to 56 wins, and proceeded to have three 50 win seasons in a row without Gay, and they never won 50 games with him. Gay never won a playoff series in his career.

As for a list of 50 better players from 2011, that’s pretty easy. In no order:

1. Dirk
2. Lebron
3. Derrick Rose
4. Durant
5. Dwight
6. Kobe
7. CP3
8. Westbrook
9. Gasol
10. Amare
11. Randolph
12. Duncan
13. Blake Griffin
14. Melo
15. Ginobili
16. Aldridge
17. Deron
18. Nash
19. KG
20. Horford
21. Bynum
22. David West
23. Tyson Chandler
24. Joakim Noah
25. Paul Pierce
26. Stephen Curry
27. Kevin Love
28. Wade
29. Nene
30. Al Jefferson
31. Bosh
32. Odom
33. Brook Lopez
34. Billups
35. Tony Allen
36. Shawn Marion
37. Rondo
38. Iggy
39. Harden
40. Marc Gasol
41. Kyle Lowry
42. AK47
43. Ray Allen
44. Ibaka
45. Bogut
46. Mike Conley
47. Luol Deng
48. Jrue Holiday
49. Gallinari
50. Jason Kidd

I can confidently say all those guys were better than Gay. And you know what? The Grizzlies agreed with me and traded him away and they were better for it.

You can come up with as many list as you want that doesn’t mean they are true lol. Also I explained that following year with the 41 wins was a lockout season in which ZBo was hurt a majority of the shortened season.

[Doctor MJ]

I want to remind all the fans that keep bringing up Manu’s injury the Grizzlies team did not have Rudy Gay due to injury as well the entire playoffs.

Regardless of what you think of him Rudy was a top 10 SF in the league at the time and would’ve provided even more scoring and size. Rudy also could’ve potentially returned had the Grizz been able to advance. Side-note: (He hit a game winner against the Heat that regular season as well).

I don’t think a lot of people think that. In no particular order:

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Paul Pierce
5. Luol Deng
6. Hedo Turkoglu
7. Iggy
8. Paul George
9. Lamar Odom
10. Shawn Marion
11. Shane Battier
12. AK47

Gay was healthy for the playoffs in 2012 and averaged 19 points, 7 rebounds, and 1 assist per game on 50.5 TS%, 14.6 PER, and the Grizzlies lost in the first round. Then the Grizzlies traded Gay away the next year and made the conference finals for the first time in franchise history.

Rudy Gay never won a playoff series in his career.

I’m not sure how you came up with this list but it is wildly inaccurate none the less. We talking about 2011, I will drop a link with Slam Magazine top 50 players that year for context. You are more than welcome to find a list that doesn’t list Rudy as one of the better players during that year.

The following year was the lockout year where ZBo tore his MCL in his knee 8 games into the season. He was back by the playoffs but was not himself after rushing back to play. Rudy was tasked with doing more than he needed to be doing. He was traded I believe the following season in a salary dump move. We then beat a Westbrookless OKC, Injured Clippers team and swept by the Spurs due to not being able to score (they just packed the paint).

So, as I’ve stated, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and I don’t mean to imply otherwise.

The fact that you can reference Slam - I’m not going to double check but it sounds like what I remember from the time - shows that your opinion was something of a majority opinion back then.

But you should know that for a lot of us round here at the time, Slam was seen as utterly non-analytical and didn’t represent a serious source of analysis so much of style and culture.

When I think of Slam, I think of the classic Iverson cover. I loved the cover and I loved Iverson as a fan, but once we started getting access to more and more data, my assessment of his actual on-court impact dropped severely and never recovered. His cultural impact remains to this day on many levels - most obviously during games is the continued presence of cornrows which really wasn’t an NBA thing until Iverson, what Jordan did for the shaved head, Iverson did for braids - but needs not be (even if it often is) confused for helping NBA teams win.

Back to Gay, in terms of the best player in a team, to me this is just hard to rank in Memphis because the strategy building around Gay’s scoring was just problematic, and thus the team really did move forward without him.

The same was true on his next team Toronto we should recall. Sacramento then was never any good and so while we can say Gay was probably at top 2 player there at time, it doesn’t represent a proof of concept for him as a core star on a team firing on all cylinders.

Where Gay finally gained traction in a role that worked for him and his team, in my assessment, was in San Antonio as a role player.

And this is how I see Gay generally: He was capable of being a really quality role player, but got miscast as a volume scorer to start his career which is what led to these additions-by-subtraction moments in Memphis and Toronto.

While it all probably sounds hater-ish of me, I just want to emphasize how much I admire players who make the transition from star to role player when that’s where they can do the most good.

Back in Memphis there was a time when the future of the franchise seemed to be a choice between Gay and OJ Mayo. While neither were able to stick around in the Grit n Grind core, Mayo was never able to find a niche in the NBA at all and truly ended up a bust. Gay, was no bust - he had a solid NBA career - but he was miscast early on.


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[cupcakesnake]

Grizz sold low and traded Rudy for financial reasons. Lionel Hollins the coach at the time called out the organization for being cheap as The Grizz were going through an ownership power struggle of sorts. The organization has been in search of Rudy ever since he was traded. That being the reason we traded for Jeff Green a few years later.

Point being again if Manu recovering from injury but well enough to play is being used as an excuse for the Spurs losing. Then at least acknowledge the Grizzlies were playing without their 2nd best player.

Feels like we're talking past each other. I just talked about the team getting better by trading him away, and you're coming back wanting me to acknowledge it was a huge disadvantage to be without him. Those two things, I think are mutually exclusive.

I think I should also emphasize that, at least for people like me, we're not making excuses for why the Spurs had an extreme upset loss, we're specifically pointing attention to Ginobili as a really, really big deal. How big of a deal? Well, I consider him to be have been a better basketball player than any player I can think of who wore a Grizzly uniform at any time since their start as an expansion team, and I say this someone who probably rates Gasol, Conley & Allen higher than most. It's not meant to bash the Grizzlies as a franchise, it's meant to illustrate how big of a deal I would say Ginobili was.

I'll say by contrast, Tony Parker? Meh, I'd prefer to have Conley. I'm not a super-Spurs guy here, I'm just really high on Ginobili compared to most.

I understand your point but don’t agree. Because you think the Grizz were better without Rudy doesn’t mean it was true. You have made clear your opinions and so have I but fact remains Grizz played without their 2nd best player and still made it to the 2nd round pushing OKC to 7 games. The excuse of Manu being injured changed things is just that an excuse.

I think the biggest thing about Rudy Gay being out was that it allowed the Grizzlies to play more through Zach Randolph as a high-volume post scorer, and have Marc Gasol operate more at the elbows (Rudy's territory during the regular season). Rudy's injury did have the unintentional result of the Grizzlies finding an offensive identity that served them well in the playoffs for years to come. Rudy Gay was indeed considered their 1st or 2nd most talented offensive player at the time, and Memphis played through him when he was available. We never got any evidence that Rudy's style of midrange pull-up heavy game was helpful in the playoffs. Playing through him put a definite cap on the Grizzlies, mostly because Z-Bo, Marc, and Conley deserved more touches.

Yes, Tim Duncan's ankle, Manu's elbow, and Rudy Gay's absense all impacted this series. I think the biggest thing was that Memphis really found their identity in the 2011 playoffs. Up until this moment, Memphis was trying to figure out how to build a lot around OJ Mayo and Rudy Gay. In the 2011 playoffs, Gay was injured, and Hollins committed to Tony Allen starting full time. The defensive brilliance of the Tony Allen/Marc Gasol duo was unreal, the offensive decision making (and 2-way play) of Conley and Gasol kept the offense flexible, and Z-Bo gave them an efficient tip of the spear.

It's a shame that Randolph got injured the next year, and was never quite the same level of post beast again. Memphis was a really fantastic team in this era either way, but they could have had even more success.

[QMemphis]

Feels like we're talking past each other. I just talked about the team getting better by trading him away, and you're coming back wanting me to acknowledge it was a huge disadvantage to be without him. Those two things, I think are mutually exclusive.

I think I should also emphasize that, at least for people like me, we're not making excuses for why the Spurs had an extreme upset loss, we're specifically pointing attention to Ginobili as a really, really big deal. How big of a deal? Well, I consider him to be have been a better basketball player than any player I can think of who wore a Grizzly uniform at any time since their start as an expansion team, and I say this someone who probably rates Gasol, Conley & Allen higher than most. It's not meant to bash the Grizzlies as a franchise, it's meant to illustrate how big of a deal I would say Ginobili was.

I'll say by contrast, Tony Parker? Meh, I'd prefer to have Conley. I'm not a super-Spurs guy here, I'm just really high on Ginobili compared to most.

I understand your point but don’t agree. Because you think the Grizz were better without Rudy doesn’t mean it was true. You have made clear your opinions and so have I but fact remains Grizz played without their 2nd best player and still made it to the 2nd round pushing OKC to 7 games. The excuse of Manu being injured changed things is just that an excuse.

I think the biggest thing about Rudy Gay being out was that it allowed the Grizzlies to play more through Zach Randolph as a high-volume post scorer, and have Marc Gasol operate more at the elbows (Rudy's territory during the regular season). Rudy's injury did have the unintentional result of the Grizzlies finding an offensive identity that served them well in the playoffs for years to come. Rudy Gay was indeed considered their 1st or 2nd most talented offensive player at the time, and Memphis played through him when he was available. We never got any evidence that Rudy's style of midrange pull-up heavy game was helpful in the playoffs. Playing through him put a definite cap on the Grizzlies, mostly because Z-Bo, Marc, and Conley deserved more touches.

Yes, Tim Duncan's ankle, Manu's elbow, and Rudy Gay's absense all impacted this series. I think the biggest thing was that Memphis really found their identity in the 2011 playoffs. Up until this moment, Memphis was trying to figure out how to build a lot around OJ Mayo and Rudy Gay. In the 2011 playoffs, Gay was injured, and Hollins committed to Tony Allen starting full time. The defensive brilliance of the Tony Allen/Marc Gasol duo was unreal, the offensive decision making (and 2-way play) of Conley and Gasol kept the offense flexible, and Z-Bo gave them an efficient tip of the spear.

It's a shame that Randolph got injured the next year, and was never quite the same level of post beast again. Memphis was a really fantastic team in this era either way, but they could have had even more success.

My point being that Rudy missing the series should be mentioned if Manu playing hurt is used as an excuse. The rest of this stuff is opinions and mine is the Grizz were better with Rudy.

[Castle Black]

Multiple things:

1. Spurs limped their way into the Playoffs that year. Manu had a broken elbow and had to wear an arm-brace that series. He was forced to miss Game 1 and we ended up losing by 3 points. Duncan had a hyper-flexed left knee injury followed by a left ankle injury before entering the playoffs that required him to miss games. That was the first year where it was really becoming evident that the Spurs were getting old and needed changes on the roster, especially in terms of size and perimeter defense. It resulted in us trading up in the Draft 2 months later to select Kawhi Leonard.

2. This was the peak of the Grit 'N Grind Grizzlies era. Memphis was not your average 8-Seed. As a matter of fact, they purposely lost their last 2 games of the season so that they could fall to the 8-Seed and matchup with the Spurs in the 1st Round instead of Kobe, Pau, Bynum and the 2-Seed Lakers (Tony Allen later confirmed this in an interview). They were arguably the hottest team entering the Playoffs, winning 12 of their last 15 games. Nobody wanted to play them.

3. Z-Bo was a monster that series. Guy played some of the best ball of his career, whereas Timmy played probably the worst Playoff series of his career. Partially due to him not being fully healthy, but mostly because of the size, length, and physicality that Z-Bo and Marc Gasol threw at him in the front court.

4. Spurs' role players stunk that series. George Hill and Gary Neal were the only guys who really contributed and neither of them were stellar by any means. The other guys — Richard Jefferson (yuck), Matt Bonner, Antonio McDyess, Dejuan Blair, and Tiago Splitter — all played pretty poorly for us in that series. Most of this was due to the Grizzlies' stifling defense, but some of it was also due to these guys' inability to hit open looks when they had 'em (like Jefferson missing the WIDE OPEN 3 at the end of Game 1 to tie it). Was just a really frustrating series from our role players.

5. Most importantly, the Grizzlies were simply a defensive juggernaut at the time and made life really hard for the Spurs. And to compound matters, we didn't have another serviceable big to help Timmy out. We had the corpse of Antonio McDyess, Rookie Tiago Splitter (who wasn't ready), and undersized 6'6 Dejuan Blair as his front-court mates. We lacked the personnel to bang down low with that extremely big and physical Memphis team. Spurs were, in turn, forced to rely on Parker and injured Manu to do the bulk of the scoring, hence why they both led the Spurs in PPG that series, while Duncan only averaged 11 shot attempts per game.

[Doctor MJ]

Multiple things:

1. Spurs limped their way into the Playoffs that year. Manu had a broken elbow and had to wear an arm-brace that series. He had to miss Game 1 and we ended up losing by 3 points. Duncan had a hyper-flexed left knee injury followed by a left ankle injury before entering the playoffs that required him to miss games. That was the first year where it was really becoming evident that the Spurs were getting old and needed changes on the roster, especially in terms of size and perimeter defense. It resulted in us trading up in the Draft 2 months later to select Kawhi Leonard.

2. This was the peak of the Grit 'N Grind Grizzlies era. Memphis was not your average 8-Seed. As a matter of fact, they purposely lost their last 2 games of the season so that they could fall to the 8-Seed and matchup with the Spurs in the 1st Round instead of Kobe, Pau, Bynum and the 2-Seed Lakers (Tony Allen later confirmed this in an interview). They were arguably the hottest team entering the Playoffs and had won 12 of their last 15 games. Nobody wanted to play them.

3. Z-Bo was a monster that series. Guy played some of the best ball of his career, whereas Timmy played probably the worst Playoff series of his career. Partially due to him not being fully healthy, but mostly because of the size, length, and physicality that Z-Bo and Marc Gasol threw at him in the front court.

4. Spurs' role players stunk that series. George Hill and Gary Neal were the only guys who really contributed and neither of them were stellar by any means. The other guys — Richard Jefferson (yuck), Gary Neal, Bonner, McDyess, Dejuan Blair, and Splitter — all played pretty poorly for us in that series. Most of this was due to the Grizzlies' stifling defense, but some of it was also due to these guys' inability to hit open looks when they had 'em (like Jefferson missing the WIDE OPEN 3 at the end of Game 1 to tie it). Was just a really frustrating series from our role players.

5. Most importantly, the Grizzlies were simply a defensive juggernaut at the time and made life really hard for the Spurs. And to compound matters, we didn't have another serviceable big to help Timmy out. We had the corpse of Antonio McDyess, Rookie Tiago Splitter (who wasn't ready), and undersized 6'6 Dejuan Blair as his front-court mates. We simply lacked the personnel to bang down low with that extremely big and physical Memphis team. Spurs were, in turn, forced to rely on Parker and injured Manu to do the bulk of the scoring, hence why they both led the Spurs in PPG that series, while Duncan only averaged 11 shot attempts per game.

Lots of great stuff here, and an helpful pic of Ginobili.

I'm going to push back on one thing though:

I would not say that this was peak Grit n Grind, but rather the opening bell of Grit n Grind. It was '12-13 when the Grizz played defense like a juggernaut (and when Gasol won DPOY).

I think it's helpful to look at the Grizz Big 5 MPG guys this regular season, followed by the playoffs and then subsequent years:

'10-11 RS: Gay, Z, Conley, Gasol, Mayo
'10-11 PS: Gasol, Z, Conley, Mayo, Allen upsets SA

'11-12 RS: Gay, Gasol, Conley, Mayo, Allen
'11-12 PS: Gay, Conley, Gasol, Z, Allen upset in 1st round (LAC)

'12-13 RS: Gay, Gasol, Conley, Z, Prince
'12-13 PS: Gasol, Conley, Z, Prince, Allen gets to WCF

So from my perspective, the 5-man lineup to remember for the Grit n Grind Grizz is Conley/Allen/Prince/Z/Randolph with the recognition that Gay & Mayo (the two biggest MPG guys in '08-09 & '09-10) had to go being essential to them becoming an iconic team. They found their way by recognizing their 2 highest profile guys didn't really have a place playing like they did on a great team.

(As mentioned before, Gay would go on to adapt his game and be a quality role player who might have been able to fit on Grit n Grind, while Mayo would never figure the NBA out.)

[PaulKellerman]

Multiple things:

1. Spurs limped their way into the Playoffs that year. Manu had a broken elbow and had to wear an arm-brace that series. He had to miss Game 1 and we ended up losing by 3 points. Duncan had a hyper-flexed left knee injury followed by a left ankle injury before entering the playoffs that required him to miss games. That was the first year where it was really becoming evident that the Spurs were getting old and needed changes on the roster, especially in terms of size and perimeter defense. It resulted in us trading up in the Draft 2 months later to select Kawhi Leonard.

2. This was the peak of the Grit 'N Grind Grizzlies era. Memphis was not your average 8-Seed. As a matter of fact, they purposely lost their last 2 games of the season so that they could fall to the 8-Seed and matchup with the Spurs in the 1st Round instead of Kobe, Pau, Bynum and the 2-Seed Lakers (Tony Allen later confirmed this in an interview). They were arguably the hottest team entering the Playoffs and had won 12 of their last 15 games. Nobody wanted to play them.

3. Z-Bo was a monster that series. Guy played some of the best ball of his career, whereas Timmy played probably the worst Playoff series of his career. Partially due to him not being fully healthy, but mostly because of the size, length, and physicality that Z-Bo and Marc Gasol threw at him in the front court.

4. Spurs' role players stunk that series. George Hill and Gary Neal were the only guys who really contributed and neither of them were stellar by any means. The other guys — Richard Jefferson (yuck), Gary Neal, Bonner, McDyess, Dejuan Blair, and Splitter — all played pretty poorly for us in that series. Most of this was due to the Grizzlies' stifling defense, but some of it was also due to these guys' inability to hit open looks when they had 'em (like Jefferson missing the WIDE OPEN 3 at the end of Game 1 to tie it). Was just a really frustrating series from our role players.

5. Most importantly, the Grizzlies were simply a defensive juggernaut at the time and made life really hard for the Spurs. And to compound matters, we didn't have another serviceable big to help Timmy out. We had the corpse of Antonio McDyess, Rookie Tiago Splitter (who wasn't ready), and undersized 6'6 Dejuan Blair as his front-court mates. We simply lacked the personnel to bang down low with that extremely big and physical Memphis team. Spurs were, in turn, forced to rely on Parker and injured Manu to do the bulk of the scoring, hence why they both led the Spurs in PPG that series, while Duncan only averaged 11 shot attempts per game.

Lots of great stuff here, and an helpful pic of Ginobili.

I'm going to push back on one thing though:

I would not say that this was peak Grit n Grind, but rather the opening bell of Grit n Grind. It was '12-13 when the Grizz played defense like a juggernaut (and when Gasol won DPOY).

I think it's helpful to look at the Grizz Big 5 MPG guys this regular season, followed by the playoffs and then subsequent years:

'10-11 RS: Gay, Z, Conley, Gasol, Mayo
'10-11 PS: Gasol, Z, Conley, Mayo, Allen upsets SA

'11-12 RS: Gay, Gasol, Conley, Mayo, Allen
'11-12 PS: Gay, Conley, Gasol, Z, Allen upset in 1st round (LAC)

'12-13 RS: Gay, Gasol, Conley, Z, Prince
'12-13 PS: Gasol, Conley, Z, Prince, Allen gets to WCF

So from my perspective, the 5-man lineup to remember for the Grit n Grind Grizz is Conley/Allen/Prince/Z/Randolph with the recognition that Gay & Mayo (the two biggest MPG guys in '08-09 & '09-10) had to go being essential to them becoming an iconic team. They found their way by recognizing their 2 highest profile guys didn't really have a place playing like they did on a great team.

(As mentioned before, Gay would go on to adapt his game and be a quality role player who might have been able to fit on Grit n Grind, while Mayo would never figure the NBA out.)

The 2013 Grizzlies gave OKC the business, albeit Russ was injured. Durant led OKC in 3 key categories in 2 of the 5 games and had to WORK for every single bucket. Reggie Jackson, Serge were completely neutered and could not find airspace. KD was constantly harassed by Tony Allen who would not let him get to his spots, strip him of the ball or just refuse to be backed down. KD was at the peak of his powers and Allen almost neutered the head of the proverbial snake.

[MrGoat]

Multiple things:

1. Spurs limped their way into the Playoffs that year. Manu had a broken elbow and had to wear an arm-brace that series. He had to miss Game 1 and we ended up losing by 3 points. Duncan had a hyper-flexed left knee injury followed by a left ankle injury before entering the playoffs that required him to miss games. That was the first year where it was really becoming evident that the Spurs were getting old and needed changes on the roster, especially in terms of size and perimeter defense. It resulted in us trading up in the Draft 2 months later to select Kawhi Leonard.

2. This was the peak of the Grit 'N Grind Grizzlies era. Memphis was not your average 8-Seed. As a matter of fact, they purposely lost their last 2 games of the season so that they could fall to the 8-Seed and matchup with the Spurs in the 1st Round instead of Kobe, Pau, Bynum and the 2-Seed Lakers (Tony Allen later confirmed this in an interview). They were arguably the hottest team entering the Playoffs and had won 12 of their last 15 games. Nobody wanted to play them.

3. Z-Bo was a monster that series. Guy played some of the best ball of his career, whereas Timmy played probably the worst Playoff series of his career. Partially due to him not being fully healthy, but mostly because of the size, length, and physicality that Z-Bo and Marc Gasol threw at him in the front court.

4. Spurs' role players stunk that series. George Hill and Gary Neal were the only guys who really contributed and neither of them were stellar by any means. The other guys — Richard Jefferson (yuck), Gary Neal, Bonner, McDyess, Dejuan Blair, and Splitter — all played pretty poorly for us in that series. Most of this was due to the Grizzlies' stifling defense, but some of it was also due to these guys' inability to hit open looks when they had 'em (like Jefferson missing the WIDE OPEN 3 at the end of Game 1 to tie it). Was just a really frustrating series from our role players.

5. Most importantly, the Grizzlies were simply a defensive juggernaut at the time and made life really hard for the Spurs. And to compound matters, we didn't have another serviceable big to help Timmy out. We had the corpse of Antonio McDyess, Rookie Tiago Splitter (who wasn't ready), and undersized 6'6 Dejuan Blair as his front-court mates. We simply lacked the personnel to bang down low with that extremely big and physical Memphis team. Spurs were, in turn, forced to rely on Parker and injured Manu to do the bulk of the scoring, hence why they both led the Spurs in PPG that series, while Duncan only averaged 11 shot attempts per game.

Lots of great stuff here, and an helpful pic of Ginobili.

I'm going to push back on one thing though:

I would not say that this was peak Grit n Grind, but rather the opening bell of Grit n Grind. It was '12-13 when the Grizz played defense like a juggernaut (and when Gasol won DPOY).

I think it's helpful to look at the Grizz Big 5 MPG guys this regular season, followed by the playoffs and then subsequent years:

'10-11 RS: Gay, Z, Conley, Gasol, Mayo
'10-11 PS: Gasol, Z, Conley, Mayo, Allen upsets SA

'11-12 RS: Gay, Gasol, Conley, Mayo, Allen
'11-12 PS: Gay, Conley, Gasol, Z, Allen upset in 1st round (LAC)

'12-13 RS: Gay, Gasol, Conley, Z, Prince
'12-13 PS: Gasol, Conley, Z, Prince, Allen gets to WCF

So from my perspective, the 5-man lineup to remember for the Grit n Grind Grizz is Conley/Allen/Prince/Z/Randolph with the recognition that Gay & Mayo (the two biggest MPG guys in '08-09 & '09-10) had to go being essential to them becoming an iconic team. They found their way by recognizing their 2 highest profile guys didn't really have a place playing like they did on a great team.

(As mentioned before, Gay would go on to adapt his game and be a quality role player who might have been able to fit on Grit n Grind, while Mayo would never figure the NBA out.)

The 2013 Grizzlies gave OKC the business, albeit Russ was injured. Durant led OKC in 3 key categories in 2 of the 5 games and had to WORK for every single bucket. Reggie Jackson, Serge were completely neutered and could not find airspace. KD was constantly harassed by Tony Allen who would not let him get to his spots, strip him of the ball or just refuse to be backed down. KD was at the peak of his powers and Allen almost neutered the head of the proverbial snake.

I think you actually could argue the 2011 Grizzlies team was the peak of grit n' grind though a cursory glance of the results without context certainly wouldn't lead you to think so. 2011 was the season where the grit n' grind identity really came together. They had a really slow start to the season before they really figured it out, they were 19-22 at the halfway point before they really took off.

The reason I you can still argue the 2011 team was the best version was because that one had the best version of Zach Randolph. Z Bo got injured in the 2012 season and was never quite the same afterwards. Sure, they beat OKC and actually got to the WCF in 2013 but OKC not having Russ was a pretty big difference between 2011 OKC and 2013 OKC

[Doctor MJ]

Lots of great stuff here, and an helpful pic of Ginobili.

I'm going to push back on one thing though:

I would not say that this was peak Grit n Grind, but rather the opening bell of Grit n Grind. It was '12-13 when the Grizz played defense like a juggernaut (and when Gasol won DPOY).

I think it's helpful to look at the Grizz Big 5 MPG guys this regular season, followed by the playoffs and then subsequent years:

'10-11 RS: Gay, Z, Conley, Gasol, Mayo
'10-11 PS: Gasol, Z, Conley, Mayo, Allen upsets SA

'11-12 RS: Gay, Gasol, Conley, Mayo, Allen
'11-12 PS: Gay, Conley, Gasol, Z, Allen upset in 1st round (LAC)

'12-13 RS: Gay, Gasol, Conley, Z, Prince
'12-13 PS: Gasol, Conley, Z, Prince, Allen gets to WCF

So from my perspective, the 5-man lineup to remember for the Grit n Grind Grizz is Conley/Allen/Prince/Z/Randolph with the recognition that Gay & Mayo (the two biggest MPG guys in '08-09 & '09-10) had to go being essential to them becoming an iconic team. They found their way by recognizing their 2 highest profile guys didn't really have a place playing like they did on a great team.

(As mentioned before, Gay would go on to adapt his game and be a quality role player who might have been able to fit on Grit n Grind, while Mayo would never figure the NBA out.)

The 2013 Grizzlies gave OKC the business, albeit Russ was injured. Durant led OKC in 3 key categories in 2 of the 5 games and had to WORK for every single bucket. Reggie Jackson, Serge were completely neutered and could not find airspace. KD was constantly harassed by Tony Allen who would not let him get to his spots, strip him of the ball or just refuse to be backed down. KD was at the peak of his powers and Allen almost neutered the head of the proverbial snake.

I think you actually could argue the 2011 Grizzlies team was the peak of grit n' grind though a cursory glance of the results without context certainly wouldn't lead you to think so. 2011 was the season where the grit n' grind identity really came together. They had a really slow start to the season before they really figured it out, they were 19-22 at the halfway point before they really took off.

The reason I you can still argue the 2011 team was the best version was because that one had the best version of Zach Randolph. Z Bo got injured in the 2012 season and was never quite the same afterwards. Sure, they beat OKC and actually got to the WCF in 2013 but OKC not having Russ was a pretty big difference between 2011 OKC and 2013 OKC

I think it's good to bring up that Z was aging out, but the team had a much better record and SRS in '12-13, and also, they had moved on from Mayo by then, whereas he was still starting in the '10-11 playoffs.