Is KG the ultimate example of how being loyal to a lousy organization and staying with them will hurt your legacy/all ti

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I have to say, not sure anyone had more of a bum roster to compete for a championship then KG, I love Cassell but he can't be your 2nd option

I was not faulting KG for failing to churn out championships in Minnesota. But c'mon i can name quite a few of REAL top 10 all time talented players that went in playoff series on teams with underwhelming rosters and showed that next gear KG never did. Some players in history proved to be unstoppable at times no matter who their casts were.

in no particular order off the top of my head: Kareem, Hakeem, Jordan, LeBron, Moses Malone, Rick Barry, Jerry West.

KG isnt a top 10 talent imho because he didnt play at that level in the playoffs.....even when Boston won the title.

You know the difference in talent and actual results right? Cause how you play in the playoffs isn't an indication of your talent level.

As far as im concerned yes it is. I dont care how aesthetically pleasing your game is on the eye, if you cannot dominate individually in the playoffs then you have no business being called a top 10 all time talent.

KG in Minnesota as far as I'm concerned was neither a game changing offensive or defensive player.

And quite frankly based on their underwhelming playoff run, I wasnt overly impressed by him in Boston either the year they won.

[dhsilv2]

KG is hurt more by not being a great volume scorer. He was elite at everything else but most of the guys that people consider in those top all time spots could score in bunches, especially in crucial moments.

Also, he had plenty of talent in Boston. Him being inactive in the 2009 playoffs and not beating LA in 2010 probably impacts his legacy more. Maybe it's not fair but he needed more than one title with that group to be considered higher on all time lists.

But the whole argument OP is making is that he waited too long to leave the wovles for Boston. After 2004 the Wolve's rosters from 2005-2007 were some of the most god awful trash we've ever seen.

We are talking KG"s age 28-30 seasons. Those are the seasons most guys build their legacy on.

Jordan skipped his 30 season but that was still 2 titles and an MVP
Kareem - 2 of his MVP's
Lebron - 2nd title and MPV plus two more finals
Magic - 2 MVP's and a title
Bird - 2 MVPs and a title
Kobe - 1 MVP 1 title
Hakeem - while everyone will point out he was a late bloomer getting his 2 titles and MVP in the 2 years after this. 1993 was his best statistical year and his first DPOY.
Duncan - 2 titles and worth noting some RAPM measures had 2007 as his best impact year.
Shaq - 2 titles
Wilt - 2 MVP's and his title as the best player
Russell - I know he wins everything either way but still 2 of his 5 MVP's and 3 titles
West - this was his weird finals MVP falling into this. He was hurt in his age 28 playoffs.
Curry - 2 titles and 3 finals.

There's 13 of your all time guys. Now you might say that 3 years is a bit narrow and I agree that you'd likely want to add 1 year before and after to it. But if you do that KG was MVP and DPOY with a title in those two years. It's that 3 years of having what you can't even argue was an NBA roster at the time that kills him.

Just to add insult, 2005 despite having a 44 win record on a team that was just dog crap once you accounted for Cassell was hurt much of th eyear. They were giving major minute to Hassell and Hudson and still giving starter minutes to a completely washed Sprewell. That team nearly any year at least makes the playoffs and people give KG some love for that. Instead with a solid 44 win record they just miss them all together.

And then I"m not even sure what to say about the 2006 wolves. Injuries and non NBA players all over the roster. KG could have averaged 50 a game and this team misses the playoffs.

2007 I honestly do feel KG was a bit checked out, but who wouldn't? Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Trenton Hassell and Mike James were his starters.

What should have been 3 years where KG had a shot at MVP and titles, instead he had rosters not good enough for all but perhaps Lebron or MJ to make the playoffs. And nobody has said KG is on THAT level. They're saying he's top 10, not GOAT tier.

And you even take that 2004 Wolves roster and compare to any of the above players and use the full 5 years. Hakeem might have a worse roster or two. Kareem maybe as well. But I'd bet anything if you ranked the rosters so 5 rosters for each player, that 2004 wolves would be near the bottom and all 3 of those wolves teams 05-07 would be the bottom 3. Certainly 2006 and 2007.

So you don't have to move KG up your rankings or anything. But to have the worst rosters of your career and at least 2 of them being some all time bad ones, all in that 5 year window that nearly every top 10 guy made a name for themself is a pretty staggering obstetrical to overcome. And again, we just don't really see a comp. Jokic had his G league roster in the playoffs in his age 26 year, so he's got 2 more shots at this. And he really could use another title run to lock him in that top 10 and 2 if he really wants a shot at going into that top 5 discussion. Sure for the top 5 you can keep adding after and obviously before this "magical" 5 year window, but 27-31 is the window historically. It's nearly undefeated outside of your GOAT tier guys who are there because they had bigger windows.

Sure but I think most people are willing to concede the bad Wolves rosters. In Boston he had better rosters than most get. Granted, it's late prime but he still had the horses to move up there. Likewise, if he had dropped some epic 40pt losses with Minny with his usual Garnett rounded effort in the playoffs I think more people would point to those as noble losses.

Post Shaq, Kobe had some pretty epically bad rosters as well and he used that time to put up crazy individual stats and runs. Very similar run of years. Something like that probably helps Garnett but that wasn't his game.

But remember he missed the playoffs all together those 3 years. His rosters were THAT bad, add in 2005 the West was always just that good. The won 44 games after all.

He didn't even get a chance to go out guns ablazing for 3 of those "PRIME" seasons. Nobody in this list missed the playoffs 3 times and we can go see KG was a clear top 5ish player by every reasonable metric over those years. It wasn't his fault even if perhaps he was somewhat mailing it in given the rosters he had.

And look I get a lot of the argument's with KG. Back in 2007 I remember talking to a co worker about how perhaps KG was never that good, how does a guy like that miss the playoffs 3 straight years? Maybe he won't even make the hall we said. And then 2008 comes, he breaks basketball, changes how the game is played, and wins a title. And you know...401 error in my brain. I go back and rewatch that 2004 game 5 and game 6 and I'm suddenly in shock over what all he did in the game. But...in 2004 I just saw him having a 20 17 game with 8 turnovers and an OK 4th so I dismissed it.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Duncan averaged 20 ppg and shot 41% FG in 2005 NBA Finals against the Pistons. But he also had Manu (averaged 18.7 ppg on 49% FG and 38% from 3) who was a great penetrator and has the talent of a first-option player. Tony Parker was no slouch either. KG didn't have those talents around him until he was traded to Boston. Duncan and the Spurs would've lost to the Pistons if he had Cassell and Sprewell instead of Parker and Manu.

Oh poppycock! In 2002 he had equally to similar talent headed into the playoffs as the 5th seed. Both Szcerbiak and Billups gave him well over 20ppg in the opening round vs Dallas. They both improved on what they averaged in the regular season.

What'd KG average? Only 42% for the series vs a Dallas team that was the 4th worst in the entire NBA. He had more experience than Dirk and yet Dirk outperformed him big time.

You really like PPG don't you? At that point Bilups and Wally were bad to really bad defenders. Parker was never much of a defender but better than those two. And Manu was a legit defensive player. This is the early 00's. Games were won on defense.

We're gonna act like Nash or Nick van Exel people here are propping up were bringing something to the tables at the defensive end? The excuses for KG never ends lol

The 02 Mavs were a HORRID defensive team with no real stoppers and KG STILL struggled vs them. And on defense at no point could he stop Dirk from going haywire at epic levels I mean he is this ATG great defender everyone on RealGM gloats about?

Not making this thread into KG vs Dirk but a perfect example of someone seen as more versatile, talented and skilled (KG) not being as valuable as someone who could take over games in the playoffs and could annually make their team elite in a certain aspect (Dirk).

[dhsilv2]

Oh poppycock! In 2002 he had equally to similar talent headed into the playoffs as the 5th seed. Both Szcerbiak and Billups gave him well over 20ppg in the opening round vs Dallas. They both improved on what they averaged in the regular season.

What'd KG average? Only 42% for the series vs a Dallas team that was the 4th worst in the entire NBA. He had more experience than Dirk and yet Dirk outperformed him big time.

You really like PPG don't you? At that point Bilups and Wally were bad to really bad defenders. Parker was never much of a defender but better than those two. And Manu was a legit defensive player. This is the early 00's. Games were won on defense.

We're gonna act like Nash or Nick van Exel people here are propping up were bringing something to the tables at the defensive end? The excuses for KG never ends lol

The 02 Mavs were a HORRID defensive team with no real stoppers and KG STILL struggled vs them. And on defense at no point could he stop Dirk from going haywire at epic levels I mean he is this ATG great defender everyone on RealGM gloats about?

Not making this thread into KG vs Dirk but a perfect example of someone seen as more versatile, talented and skilled (KG) not being as valuable as someone who could take over games in the playoffs and could annually make their team elite in a certain aspect (Dirk).

Since you look offense so much, lets take a look at the 6 man rotations outside of the stars and lets look at the offensive percentile in xrapm over the season. And what do you know, 5 of the top 7 guys in that series were on the mavs. Not a single guy in their rotation had a poor or even average offensive impact.

Nash 97
Billups 93
Van Exel 92
Szczerbiak 92
Finley 89
Nájera 87
LaFrentz 83
Peeler 61
Trent 59
Nesterović 53

For fun defense

Nesterović 92
Nájera 88
LaFrentz 84
Nash 42
Billups 42
Szczerbiak 40
Finley 32
Peeler 19
Van Exel 18
Trent 8

Even here we see that defensively, the mavs would grade out better with Trent just comically bad peeler and van excel cancelling each other out but only 1 quality defender for the wolves and two for the mavs.

If you want to take that whole giant 3 game sample and say Dirk outplayed KG I'm cool with it. It doesn't really however mean much in the context of this conversation. It just shows KG didn't do enough that series but it's 3 games.

[Capn'O]

But remember he missed the playoffs all together those 3 years. His rosters were THAT bad, add in 2005 the West was always just that good. The won 44 games after all.

Sure, but again using Kobe as a counter... nobody cares that he made the playoffs in 2006 or 2007, though it was impressive that he dragged those groups there. It was his ridiculous string of 50 pt games during that period that people remember, or him scoring 35 a night. He didn't have a team so he just did some amazing ****. KG was off doing his KG balanced attack act with similarly bad rosters and that's harder to remember or find noteworthy. Kobe could win you games by himself, though by no means all of them.

It's really too bad that he had to wait as long as he did for some real rosters but I think most account for it.

[dhsilv2]

But remember he missed the playoffs all together those 3 years. His rosters were THAT bad, add in 2005 the West was always just that good. The won 44 games after all.

Sure, but again using Kobe as a counter... nobody cares that he made the playoffs in 2006 or 2007, though it was impressive that he dragged those groups there. It was his ridiculous string of 50 pt games during that period that people remember, or him scoring 35 a night. He didn't have a team so he just did some amazing ****. KG was off doing his KG balanced attack act with similarly bad rosters and that's harder to remember or find noteworthy. Kobe could win you games by himself, though by no means all of them.

It's really too bad that he had to wait as long as he did for some real rosters but I think most account for it.

If Kobe won 30 games in 2006 and 2007, there would be a massive and I mean massive change on the view of him. I'd even add that he doesn't get that MVP in 2008 as I think a lot of people felt he'd earned it in 2006 but his team wasn't good enough so they wanted to correct that in 2008. But if he won 30 games, nobody would have felt that way either.

Now Kobe also had the huge edge that he was on a contender nearly day one and that he stayed health (100% credit to Kobe on that) into his later years to continue winning.

Don't get me wrong, big scoring numbers always get the highlights and will always give you more credit than their actual value. Just the nature of the game and fandom. But we'd 100% judge Kobe different if he missed the playoffs 3 years, especially in that "window".

[Blame Rasho]

Something I found out today is that Tony Parker was a better defender than Billups according to some.

[Special_Puppy]

Garnett a top 10 talent lmao! As in top 10 all time? Based on what? And Dirk stuck with the Mavs his entire career and that didnt hurt his “legacy” but not that Dirk cared about “legacy” lol

Not really sure why calling KG a top 10 talent of all time is controversial. Dude looks like an absolute monster in box and non-box stats https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html

[dhsilv2]

Something I found out today is that Tony Parker was a better defender than Billups according to some.

Depends on the year but Billups doesn't grade out well as a defender most years, especially early career.

For context in 99 Bilups was in the 1 percentile of all defenders. Meaning 99% of players were better than him. People talk about how he struggled to become a rotation player, it was his defense. Not his offense that was keeping him off the floor and from breaking out. By 2009 he was in the 80th percentile which I believe is better than Parker ever got. But Parker wasn't in the first percentile or anything like that ever.

[tsherkin]

Garnett a top 10 talent lmao! As in top 10 all time? Based on what? And Dirk stuck with the Mavs his entire career and that didnt hurt his “legacy” but not that Dirk cared about “legacy” lol

Not really sure why calling KG a top 10 talent of all time is controversial. Dude looks like an absolute monster in box and non-box stats https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html

I think if it's talent alone that people are talking about, then there shouldn't be a huge barrier. Dude was a mobile seven footer who could do a little of everything, one of the best pre-Jokic playmakers north of Magic's height and an outstanding defensive monster, after all.

[Capn'O]

But remember he missed the playoffs all together those 3 years. His rosters were THAT bad, add in 2005 the West was always just that good. The won 44 games after all.

Sure, but again using Kobe as a counter... nobody cares that he made the playoffs in 2006 or 2007, though it was impressive that he dragged those groups there. It was his ridiculous string of 50 pt games during that period that people remember, or him scoring 35 a night. He didn't have a team so he just did some amazing ****. KG was off doing his KG balanced attack act with similarly bad rosters and that's harder to remember or find noteworthy. Kobe could win you games by himself, though by no means all of them.

It's really too bad that he had to wait as long as he did for some real rosters but I think most account for it.

If Kobe won 30 games in 2006 and 2007, there would be a massive and I mean massive change on the view of him. I'd even add that he doesn't get that MVP in 2008 as I think a lot of people felt he'd earned it in 2006 but his team wasn't good enough so they wanted to correct that in 2008. But if he won 30 games, nobody would have felt that way either.

Now Kobe also had the huge edge that he was on a contender nearly day one and that he stayed health (100% credit to Kobe on that) into his later years to continue winning.

Don't get me wrong, big scoring numbers always get the highlights and will always give you more credit than their actual value. Just the nature of the game and fandom. But we'd 100% judge Kobe different if he missed the playoffs 3 years, especially in that "window".

Could be. But the Lakers did win more games from his carry jobs those years so we'll never know and that's kind of my point. Like, if the Lakers won 42 in 2007 but didn't make the playoffs I don't think that impacts his legacy almost at all. Not only did Kobe do it but how he did it was eyepopping. Kobe had the ability to go absolutely bananas to win some games and he did. Then between 2008-2010 he won 2 titles to Garnett's 1 with stacked teams, including the H2H.

Point being, that's why KG is typically on that next tier of players and I don't think there's a statistical argument around that which changes the popular perception.

[cupcakesnake]

Oh and Kobe was like Jordan in this manner...

They both scored 10+ more points a game than their 2nd options during title runs.

I'm sure it has been done by other players as well, but Kobe nor Jordan needed another 20+ point scorer to win titles.

KG could never. His offensive repertoire and killer instinct simply wasn't good enough.

I don't really want to make this a Kobe vs KG thing but the last sentence is so true about KG.

I remember 40 year old Karl Malone just absolutely LOCKING MVP KG up in game 6 on the road. It was ugly to watch, he was forced out on the perimeter taking that ugly low % 15-18 foot turnaround and missing aplenty or turning it over.

And it's funny how I see how many claim Cassell's injury cost him a title...lol. Even with Cassell healthy with the way Detroit dominated defensively in the Finals with the Wallace frontcourt duo there's no way Minny was winning anything that year with KG as THE man.

As the 03-04 MVP at the peak of his powers in the preceding 2 series vs Denver and Sacramento he was shooting a combined 44% FG. Hardly setting the playoffs alight.

I think people who zero in on KG's one-on-one scoring completely miss what made KG great.

As an iso scorer, he was solid, a star, but not amongst the all-time elite. He wasn't strong enough to be matchup proof in the post, or as a driver. His face up game was elite, but dudes who were big/strong with quick enough hands and feet could guard him sometimes.

Basketball is a team game though, and KG was really good at that part. His combination of handles, passing, and spacing at 7 feet tall made him the ultimate amplifier. When partnered with a quality attacking guard, (or even a mediocre one), KG helped produce really high quality offensive possessions. You had to guard him far away from the basket with a big body (something 2000s defenses didn't like to do), and from there he picked people apart as a passer and screener. You just couldn't guard him and the guard easily. Sam Cassell having his most efficient scoring season ever, at age 34, wasn't random. KG was running the same actions that Dallas would later run for Dirk, the ones that made Jason Terry and JJ Barea look like gods.

But even focusing on offense, you're missing what made KG great. We're talking about the greatest combination ever of length, mobility, awareness, and motor. Minnesota stocked the roster with offensive role players, so Minny was never a great team defense, but when you look at the on-off, you realize the monster difference maker KG always was, long before he played on his first good defensive roster in Boston.

[tsherkin]

I think people who zero in on KG's one-on-one scoring completely miss what made KG great.

As an iso scorer, he was solid, a star, but not amongst the all-time elite. He wasn't strong enough to be matchup proof in the post, or as a driver. His face up game was elite, but dudes who were big/strong with quick enough hands and feet could guard him sometimes.

Basketball is a team game though, and KG was really good at that part. His combination of handles, passing, and spacing at 7 feet tall made him the ultimate amplifier. When partnered with a quality attacking guard, (or even a mediocre one), KG helped produce really high quality offensive possessions. You had to guard him far away from the basket with a big body (something 2000s defenses didn't like to do), and from there he picked people apart as a passer and screener. You just couldn't guard him and the guard easily. Sam Cassell having his most efficient scoring season ever, at age 34, wasn't random. KG was running the same actions that Dallas would later run for Dirk, the ones that made Jason Terry and JJ Barea look like gods.

But even focusing on offense, you're missing what made KG great. We're talking about the greatest combination ever of length, mobility, awareness, and motor. Minnesota stocked the roster with offensive role players, so Minny was never a great team defense, but when you look at the on-off, you realize the monster difference maker KG always was, long before he played on his first good defensive roster in Boston.

I don't think anyone's missing what made him great, I think there's just acknowledgement that his scoring was an issue come the playoffs. He couldn't, for example, have a run like the 2011 Mavs because he couldn't handle that level of scoring responsibility. He did loads of stuff very well, but managing volume scoring in the playoffs was just not something he did at an elite level, and it was a limitation. He's like the ultimate expression of doing everything BUT elite playoff scoring, which was very good for floor-raising, but problematic for pushing his team further than he did until the 08 ensemble in Boston.

His impact on those around him was evident and remarkable. His defense was phenomenal. The passing links to the teammate impact, no doubt, and because he COULD shoot the long two quite well, it opened up the locations he could occupy on the floor, and his threat as a pick-and-pop guy, kind of like an older Karl Malone. And he could pass well from all sorts places, and out of all sorts of sets, no doubt.

But as a star player, as the focal piece of a team, his scoring definitely brought his utility down a little in the playoffs.

[cupcakesnake]

Sure, but again using Kobe as a counter... nobody cares that he made the playoffs in 2006 or 2007, though it was impressive that he dragged those groups there. It was his ridiculous string of 50 pt games during that period that people remember, or him scoring 35 a night. He didn't have a team so he just did some amazing ****. KG was off doing his KG balanced attack act with similarly bad rosters and that's harder to remember or find noteworthy. Kobe could win you games by himself, though by no means all of them.

It's really too bad that he had to wait as long as he did for some real rosters but I think most account for it.

If Kobe won 30 games in 2006 and 2007, there would be a massive and I mean massive change on the view of him. I'd even add that he doesn't get that MVP in 2008 as I think a lot of people felt he'd earned it in 2006 but his team wasn't good enough so they wanted to correct that in 2008. But if he won 30 games, nobody would have felt that way either.

Now Kobe also had the huge edge that he was on a contender nearly day one and that he stayed health (100% credit to Kobe on that) into his later years to continue winning.

Don't get me wrong, big scoring numbers always get the highlights and will always give you more credit than their actual value. Just the nature of the game and fandom. But we'd 100% judge Kobe different if he missed the playoffs 3 years, especially in that "window".

But the Lakers did win more games from his carry jobs and that's kind of my point. Like, if the Lakers won 42 in 2007 but didn't make the playoffs I don't think that impacts his legacy almost at all. Not only did Kobe do it but how he did it was eyepopping. Kobe had the ability to go absolutely bananas to win some games and he did. Then between 2008-2010 he won 2 titles to Garnett's 1 with stacked teams, including the H2H.

Point being, that's why KG is typically on that next tier of players and I don't think there's a statistical argument around that which changes the popular perception.

I don't really get the 2008-2010 point, considering the KG injured his knee in 2009 and effectively ended his prime. Post-prime KG was still a very good player, but no longer a star you expect to drag teams. Kobe falls off himself about 2 years later (2010-2011 season), so comparing Kobe vs. KG in the specific years is very advantageous to Kobe. It's literally just KG being 2 years older. They both fall off around age 32. Look at KG in the finals in 2010, he's averaging 5.6 rebounds and getting smoked by Pau Gasol. 2 years before that (the last year of prime KG) he averages 13rpg and completely locking down the Lakers offense.

[dhsilv2]

Sure, but again using Kobe as a counter... nobody cares that he made the playoffs in 2006 or 2007, though it was impressive that he dragged those groups there. It was his ridiculous string of 50 pt games during that period that people remember, or him scoring 35 a night. He didn't have a team so he just did some amazing ****. KG was off doing his KG balanced attack act with similarly bad rosters and that's harder to remember or find noteworthy. Kobe could win you games by himself, though by no means all of them.

It's really too bad that he had to wait as long as he did for some real rosters but I think most account for it.

If Kobe won 30 games in 2006 and 2007, there would be a massive and I mean massive change on the view of him. I'd even add that he doesn't get that MVP in 2008 as I think a lot of people felt he'd earned it in 2006 but his team wasn't good enough so they wanted to correct that in 2008. But if he won 30 games, nobody would have felt that way either.

Now Kobe also had the huge edge that he was on a contender nearly day one and that he stayed health (100% credit to Kobe on that) into his later years to continue winning.

Don't get me wrong, big scoring numbers always get the highlights and will always give you more credit than their actual value. Just the nature of the game and fandom. But we'd 100% judge Kobe different if he missed the playoffs 3 years, especially in that "window".

Could be. But the Lakers did win more games from his carry jobs those years so we'll never know and that's kind of my point. Like, if the Lakers won 42 in 2007 but didn't make the playoffs I don't think that impacts his legacy almost at all. Not only did Kobe do it but how he did it was eyepopping. Kobe had the ability to go absolutely bananas to win some games and he did. Then between 2008-2010 he won 2 titles to Garnett's 1 with stacked teams, including the H2H.

Point being, that's why KG is typically on that next tier of players and I don't think there's a statistical argument around that which changes the popular perception.

Kobe was in his age 31 season in 2010 while KG was 33.

This is a massive point that I've tried to build from the start here. Kobe was in that 5-7 year apex range where these top 10 careers are built. KG was outside of that.

We'll never fix popular opinions. Reality TV has been going for decades now and people are still watching it. Taylor Swift is the biggest thing in music. I'm not trying to change popular opinion. I'm showing how MASSIVE the bad teammates were to KG's career because of when in the timeline he had a truly horrid team around him.

As I've already shown, no other guy that we consider for the top 10 had anything like that 3 years for KG and he had it in the most important zone of his age based expected apex. It was a perfect storm if you will.

The whole point of the thread is to discuss not if KG was a top 10 guy. But if of people with the potential to be there, if his franchise let him down the most. And I'm showing that the most critical of years in his career, he didn't have a team that could compete at all.

[cupcakesnake]

I think people who zero in on KG's one-on-one scoring completely miss what made KG great.

As an iso scorer, he was solid, a star, but not amongst the all-time elite. He wasn't strong enough to be matchup proof in the post, or as a driver. His face up game was elite, but dudes who were big/strong with quick enough hands and feet could guard him sometimes.

Basketball is a team game though, and KG was really good at that part. His combination of handles, passing, and spacing at 7 feet tall made him the ultimate amplifier. When partnered with a quality attacking guard, (or even a mediocre one), KG helped produce really high quality offensive possessions. You had to guard him far away from the basket with a big body (something 2000s defenses didn't like to do), and from there he picked people apart as a passer and screener. You just couldn't guard him and the guard easily. Sam Cassell having his most efficient scoring season ever, at age 34, wasn't random. KG was running the same actions that Dallas would later run for Dirk, the ones that made Jason Terry and JJ Barea look like gods.

But even focusing on offense, you're missing what made KG great. We're talking about the greatest combination ever of length, mobility, awareness, and motor. Minnesota stocked the roster with offensive role players, so Minny was never a great team defense, but when you look at the on-off, you realize the monster difference maker KG always was, long before he played on his first good defensive roster in Boston.

I don't think anyone's missing what made him great, I think there's just acknowledgement that his scoring was an issue come the playoffs. He couldn't, for example, have a run like the 2011 Mavs because he couldn't handle that level of scoring responsibility. He did loads of stuff very well, but managing volume scoring in the playoffs was just not something he did at an elite level, and it was a limitation. He's like the ultimate expression of doing everything BUT elite playoff scoring, which was very good for floor-raising, but problematic for pushing his team further than he did until the 08 ensemble in Boston.

His impact on those around him was evident and remarkable. His defense was phenomenal. The passing links to the teammate impact, no doubt, and because he COULD shoot the long two quite well, it opened up the locations he could occupy on the floor, and his threat as a pick-and-pop guy, kind of like an older Karl Malone. And he could pass well from all sorts places, and out of all sorts of sets, no doubt.

But as a star player, as the focal piece of a team, his scoring definitely brought his utility down a little in the playoffs.

No push back on his volume scoring, but I'm less convinced about the conclusions people draw from that.
I agree that KG couldn't have a 2011 style of run where he did some heroic bucket getting on a good defensive team. However, I'm not convinced KG wouldn't win a title in 2011 playing on the same roster. The offense would be worse with KG than it was with Dirk, but holy crap, imagine a Marion/KG/Chandler front line on defense with old man Kidd in the backcourt. Offensively, it's not like they fall off the earth, since you can run the same Jet actions with KG. I'm convinced KG couldn't do it the same way Dirk did it, but I'm not convinced he couldn't do it.

There's not a way to make a definite conclusion here. I think we're just exchanging opinions on style and value. I'm not really convinced the type of value KG provided, doesn't work in any kind of scenario. I think if he'd played with a wider variety of rosters (talent wise) in his prime, we'd have a better idea. The problem with KG, is that we only saw him with joke rosters (they were slightly more solid when he was younger) and one stacked roster in 2008. We have that 2004 team, where the talent level is maybe reasonable for a playoff run. Then after that it's comedy for KG from age 28-30.

[Capn'O]

I don't think anyone's missing what made him great, I think there's just acknowledgement that his scoring was an issue come the playoffs. He couldn't, for example, have a run like the 2011 Mavs because he couldn't handle that level of scoring responsibility.

Right. And, for most, that didn't stop KG from being considered great but not quite as great as some of the other best players to ever play the game. When that's the bar, even minor flaws become more heavily scrutinized.

I don't really get the 2008-2010 point, considering the KG injured his knee in 2009 and effectively ended his prime. Post-prime KG was still a very good player, but no longer a star you expect to drag teams. Kobe falls off himself about 2 years later (2010-2011 season), so comparing Kobe vs. KG in the specific years is very advantageous to Kobe. It's literally just KG being 2 years older. They both fall off around age 32. Look at KG in the finals in 2010, he's averaging 5.6 rebounds and getting smoked by Pau Gasol. 2 years before that (the last year of prime KG) he averages 13rpg and completely locking down the Lakers offense.

I spoke more about what Kobe did in the down years (2005-7) than KG did than 2008-10. The point is that KG could have done things in down (team) years or won more in up (team) years in ways that could have augmented how he's viewed all time. Typically he's placed between 16-25 all time and I think that's a fair range; 16 is the absolute highest that he could have been ranked. He had some bad luck with the timing of that injury and the teams he had around him but I do think it's overplayed how much that hurt his legacy and that the contingencies of his career are baked into those rankings already.

[dhsilv2]

I don't think anyone's missing what made him great, I think there's just acknowledgement that his scoring was an issue come the playoffs. He couldn't, for example, have a run like the 2011 Mavs because he couldn't handle that level of scoring responsibility.

Right. And, for most, that didn't stop KG from being considered great but not quite as great as some of the other best players to ever play the game. When that's the bar, even minor flaws become more heavily scrutinized.

I don't really get the 2008-2010 point, considering the KG injured his knee in 2009 and effectively ended his prime. Post-prime KG was still a very good player, but no longer a star you expect to drag teams. Kobe falls off himself about 2 years later (2010-2011 season), so comparing Kobe vs. KG in the specific years is very advantageous to Kobe. It's literally just KG being 2 years older. They both fall off around age 32. Look at KG in the finals in 2010, he's averaging 5.6 rebounds and getting smoked by Pau Gasol. 2 years before that (the last year of prime KG) he averages 13rpg and completely locking down the Lakers offense.

I spoke more about what Kobe did in the down years (2005-7) than KG did than 2008-10. The point is that KG could have done things in down (team) years or won more in up (team) years in ways that could have augmented how he's viewed all time. Typically he's placed between 16-25 all time and I think that's a fair range; 16 is the absolute highest that he could have been ranked. He had some bad luck with the timing of that injury and the teams he had around him but I do think it's overplayed how much that hurt his legacy and that the contingencies of his career are baked into those rankings already.

This forum consistently has KG in the top 10. So one most certainly can rank KG higher. The general opinion as we keep showing is driven by the absolutely terrible timing of KG's worst teams and those teams being worse than any other player in that context.

Now again this isn't about ranking the guys, it's about how much did the ownership/KG not demanding a trade impact his legacy. It seems pretty clear even in your push back. That it was massive issue. Nearly no guy who isn't top 5 level had an serious success in that age 32-33 range. We're talking Curry as perahps that only outlier. Everyone else had fallen off in terms of individual and team success. Outside of the obvious GOAT guys.

[sikma42]

I don't think anyone's missing what made him great, I think there's just acknowledgement that his scoring was an issue come the playoffs. He couldn't, for example, have a run like the [emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]] Mavs because he couldn't handle that level of scoring responsibility.

Right. And, for most, that didn't stop KG from being considered great but not quite as great as some of the other best players to ever play the game. When that's the bar, even minor flaws become more heavily scrutinized.

I don't really get the [emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]]]]-[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]] point, considering the KG injured his knee in [emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]]]] and effectively ended his prime. Post-prime KG was still a very good player, but no longer a star you expect to drag teams. Kobe falls off himself about [emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]] years later ([emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]-[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]] season), so comparing Kobe vs. KG in the specific years is very advantageous to Kobe. It's literally just KG being [emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]] years older. They both fall off around age [emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]. Look at KG in the finals in [emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]], he's averaging [emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]].[emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]]] rebounds and getting smoked by Pau Gasol. [emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]] years before that (the last year of prime KG) he averages [emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]rpg and completely locking down the Lakers offense.

I spoke more about what Kobe did in the down years ([emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]]-[emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]]]) than KG did than [emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]]]]-[emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]. The point is that KG could have done things in down (team) years or won more in up (team) years in ways that could have augmented how he's viewed all time. Typically he's placed between [emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]]]-[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]] all time and I think that's a fair range; [emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]]] is the absolute highest that he could have been ranked. He had some bad luck with the timing of that injury and the teams he had around him but I do think it's overplayed how much that hurt his legacy and that the contingencies of his career are baked into those rankings already.

This forum consistently has KG in the top [emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]. So one most certainly can rank KG higher. The general opinion as we keep showing is driven by the absolutely terrible timing of KG's worst teams and those teams being worse than any other player in that context.

Now again this isn't about ranking the guys, it's about how much did the ownership/KG not demanding a trade impact his legacy. It seems pretty clear even in your push back. That it was massive issue. Nearly no guy who isn't top [emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]] level had an serious success in that age [emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]-[emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]] range. We're talking Curry as perahps that only outlier. Everyone else had fallen off in terms of individual and team success. Outside of the obvious GOAT guys.

You can also argue that the way it played out helped his legacy bc it didn’t expose his weaknesses. He always had this built in excuse bc his teams werent very talented. But put him in another situation - people might start talking more about him running from shots in the playoffs. You really couldn’t run offense through him as a scorer in the playoffs and that’s a big deal.

I also don’t think he was as good as Duncan or Shaq. Dirk is debatable.

That’s [emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]] bigs right in his generation right there. Without having a bad team, he’d have to actually elevate his team and win. I saw someone saying they thought he could win with that [emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]] team. Thats the type of mythology that people have built around KG.

Even focusing on his defense. Watching the league at the time; Duncan was a better defender imo.

Nvm. I hate this mobile app lol


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[dhsilv2]

emoj i

Not sure anyone can read or respond there.

But just to be clear, the discussion is on if any other top 10 talent was more hurt by their franchise/refusing to demand a trade.