Peaks: Highest Reasonable ranking for Kobe?

[Matt15]

Peak only, what would you say is the highest reasonable ranking for Kobe? Does he have a case for top 10?

[tsherkin]

Peak only, what would you say is the highest reasonable ranking for Kobe? Does he have a case for top 10?

Can't see one. Wilt, Jordan, Jokic, Kareem, there are a whole bunch of guys who crush him in a wide variety of ways. He has had some very impressive seasons, but I can't see a valid top-10 argument for peak.

[Narigo]

Top 20

[One_and_Done]

Wouldn't crack the top 25. Maybe not even top 30.

[ceoofkobefans]

not gonna talk about this much because hate the vast majority of kobe discourse on this forum but the highest I would reasonably put kobe's peak is probably 7th (just ahead of hakeem) or 8th (just ahead of steph) but i usually put him between 9-12 (lumped in with jokic magic and bird) maybe you could talk me into 5th or 6th over wilt or duncan but thats a tough argument and would take a lot of convincing to where I wouldn't say it's *reasonable*

[migya]

I don't like Kobe's quite selfish game but he was a carrier. Really, comparing Kobe to Lebron in the mid to late 2000s, Kobe and his team in the much harder West and the Cavs in the Leastern Conference, probably the weakest conference ever, Kobe still made the playoffs pre Gasol. As far as carrying, he did a fair bit of it and that might add to his peak value.

Don't think he is top 10 but a few others often listed as being aren't either. Realistically, two way value means more than is usually portrayed. Many Centers with good two way value are top peaks. One season peaks, the likes of Ewing are highly valued.

[EmpireFalls]

not gonna talk about this much because hate the vast majority of kobe discourse on this forum but the highest I would reasonably put kobe's peak is probably 7th (just ahead of hakeem) or 8th (just ahead of steph) but i usually put him between 9-12 (lumped in with jokic magic and bird) maybe you could talk me into 5th or 6th over wilt or duncan but thats a tough argument and would take a lot of convincing to where I wouldn't say it's *reasonable*

What does the CEO of Kobe fans view as his peak season? That is perhaps more interesting than his rank.

[Primedeion]

Anchored the #1 offense in the league. Far and away the best player on of the best teams ever. #2 in minute-adjusted RAPM. ATG postseason. ATG Finals against one of the best defenses ever. GOAT level skill set. Etc, etc.

Yeah, it's easily among the dozen best peaks ever.

[TheGOATRises007]

Anchored the #1 offense in the league. Far and away the best player on of the best teams ever. #2 in minute-adjusted RAPM. ATG postseason. ATG Finals against one of the best defenses ever. GOAT level skill set. Etc, etc.

Yeah, it's easily among the dozen best peaks ever.

That's a bold take.

Even if you think Kobe provided more value than Shaq, suggesting the gap is ginormous seems incredibly off-base.

[Primedeion]

Anchored the #1 offense in the league. Far and away the best player on of the best teams ever. #2 in minute-adjusted RAPM. ATG postseason. ATG Finals against one of the best defenses ever. GOAT level skill set. Etc, etc.

Yeah, it's easily among the dozen best peaks ever.

That's a bold take.

Even if you think Kobe provided more value than Shaq, suggesting the gap is ginormous seems incredibly off-base.

I'm talking about the 09 Lakers... Advanced team metrics have them top 15 OAT and extremely comparable to teams like the 87 Lakers.

This is a team that completely dominated the league and yet they're hardly talked about.

They won 65 gms with a 7.3 SRS and won a great conference by ten games. They were one of the best "healthy/full-stregth" teams ever:



2008 Lakers: +9.7
2009 Lakers: +9.0

And they were utterly dominant in the post-season:

The 09 Lakers rank sixth all-time in leverage-adjusted playoff SRS

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/neil-warriors-2-0617.png?w=575

Ahead of teams like the 1992 Bulls, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 1997 Bulls.

Seventh all-time in ELO blend
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/after-all-that-the-warriors-arent-even-the-second-best-team-ever/


Ahead of teams like the 92 and 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers, 14 Spurs, and 72 and 87 Lakers.

The best NBA teams ever (according to Elo). The 09 Lakers ranked eighth all-time in overall ELO.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-warriors-are-in-the-goat-debate-but-they-blew-their-chance-to-end-it


The 09 Lakers are higher than teams like the 92 Bulls, 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers,2014 Spurs, etc

The 09 Lakers had the sixth greatest peak ELO Rating in NBA histroy at 1790.0:


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/last-years-warriors-werent-the-best-ever-but-this-years-might-be/

They completely dominated in the post-season:

Their post-season adjusted SRS of 12.7[/b] was the sixth highest since 1984: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors

Here they're ahead of teams like the 85 Lakers, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 97 Bulls.

The 09 Kobe/Pau/Odom was one of the absolute the most dominant trio we have on record. [b]The Kobe/Pau/Odom 09 trio (+17.5 in 3739 possessions) was the one of the very best we have recorded.

The 09 Lakers were also very arguably the best passing team in the league. Their team passer rating was #1 in the league and #61 all-time: http://www.backpicks.com/2018/07/15/nba-passer-ratings-since-1978/

They rank #11 on Sansterre's extremely in-depth look of the best teams in history: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2012241

[img]

Read on Twitter

?s=19[/img]

No I don't think he peaked at 22 years old.

[Primedeion]

Anchored the #1 offense in the league. Far and away the best player on of the best teams ever. #2 in minute-adjusted RAPM. ATG postseason. ATG Finals against one of the best defenses ever. GOAT level skill set. Etc, etc.

Yeah, it's easily among the dozen best peaks ever.

That's a bold take.

Even if you think Kobe provided more value than Shaq, suggesting the gap is ginormous seems incredibly off-base.

I'm talking about the 09 Lakers... Advanced team metrics have them top 15 OAT and extremely comparable to teams like the 87 Lakers.

This is a team that completely dominated the league and yet they're hardly talked about.

They won 65 gms with a 7.3 SRS and won a great conference by ten games. They were one of the best "healthy/full-stregth" teams ever:



2008 Lakers: +9.7
2009 Lakers: +9.0

And they were utterly dominant in the post-season:

The 09 Lakers rank sixth all-time in leverage-adjusted playoff SRS

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/neil-warriors-2-0617.png?w=575

Ahead of teams like the 1992 Bulls, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 1997 Bulls.

Seventh all-time in ELO blend
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/after-all-that-the-warriors-arent-even-the-second-best-team-ever/


Ahead of teams like the 92 and 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers, 14 Spurs, and 72 and 87 Lakers.

The best NBA teams ever (according to Elo). The 09 Lakers ranked eighth all-time in overall ELO.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-warriors-are-in-the-goat-debate-but-they-blew-their-chance-to-end-it


The 09 Lakers are higher than teams like the 92 Bulls, 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers,2014 Spurs, etc

The 09 Lakers had the sixth greatest peak ELO Rating in NBA histroy at 1790.0:


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/last-years-warriors-werent-the-best-ever-but-this-years-might-be/

They completely dominated in the post-season:

Their post-season adjusted SRS of 12.7[/b] was the sixth highest since 1984: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors

Here they're ahead of teams like the 85 Lakers, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 97 Bulls.

The 09 Kobe/Pau/Odom was one of the absolute the most dominant trio we have on record. [b]The Kobe/Pau/Odom 09 trio (+17.5 in 3739 possessions) was the one of the very best we have recorded.

The 09 Lakers were also very arguably the best passing team in the league. Their team passer rating was #1 in the league and #61 all-time: http://www.backpicks.com/2018/07/15/nba-passer-ratings-since-1978/

They rank #11 on Sansterre's extremely in-depth look of the best teams in history: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2012241

[img]

Read on Twitter

?s=19[/img]

No I don't think he peaked at 22 years old.

[One_and_Done]

Anchored the #1 offense in the league. Far and away the best player on of the best teams ever. #2 in minute-adjusted RAPM. ATG postseason. ATG Finals against one of the best defenses ever. GOAT level skill set. Etc, etc.

Yeah, it's easily among the dozen best peaks ever.

That's a bold take.

Even if you think Kobe provided more value than Shaq, suggesting the gap is ginormous seems incredibly off-base.

I'm talking about the 09 Lakers... Advanced team metrics have them top 15 OAT and extremely comparable to teams like the 87 Lakers.

This is a team that completely dominated the league and yet they're hardly talked about.

They won 65 gms with a 7.3 SRS and won a great conference by ten games. They were one of the best "healthy/full-stregth" teams ever:



2008 Lakers: +9.7
2009 Lakers: +9.0

And they were utterly dominant in the post-season:

The 09 Lakers rank sixth all-time in leverage-adjusted playoff SRS

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/neil-warriors-2-0617.png?w=575

Ahead of teams like the 1992 Bulls, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 1997 Bulls.

Seventh all-time in ELO blend
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/after-all-that-the-warriors-arent-even-the-second-best-team-ever/


Ahead of teams like the 92 and 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers, 14 Spurs, and 72 and 87 Lakers.

The best NBA teams ever (according to Elo). The 09 Lakers ranked eighth all-time in overall ELO.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-warriors-are-in-the-goat-debate-but-they-blew-their-chance-to-end-it


The 09 Lakers are higher than teams like the 92 Bulls, 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers,2014 Spurs, etc

The 09 Lakers had the sixth greatest peak ELO Rating in NBA histroy at 1790.0:


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/last-years-warriors-werent-the-best-ever-but-this-years-might-be/

They completely dominated in the post-season:

Their post-season adjusted SRS of 12.7[/b] was the sixth highest since 1984: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors

Here they're ahead of teams like the 85 Lakers, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 97 Bulls.

The 09 Kobe/Pau/Odom was one of the absolute the most dominant trio we have on record. [b]The Kobe/Pau/Odom 09 trio (+17.5 in 3739 possessions) was the one of the very best we have recorded.

The 09 Lakers were also very arguably the best passing team in the league. Their team passer rating was #1 in the league and #61 all-time: http://www.backpicks.com/2018/07/15/nba-passer-ratings-since-1978/

They rank #11 on Sansterre's extremely in-depth look of the best teams in history: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2012241

[img]

Read on Twitter

?s=19[/img]

No I don't think he peaked at 22 years old.

Advanced metrics say the OKC Thunder were the greatest team of all-time last season. Do you agree with that?

[70sFan]

That's a bold take.

Even if you think Kobe provided more value than Shaq, suggesting the gap is ginormous seems incredibly off-base.

I'm talking about the 09 Lakers... Advanced team metrics have them top 15 OAT and extremely comparable to teams like the 87 Lakers.

This is a team that completely dominated the league and yet they're hardly talked about.

They won 65 gms with a 7.3 SRS and won a great conference by ten games. They were one of the best "healthy/full-stregth" teams ever:



2008 Lakers: +9.7
2009 Lakers: +9.0

And they were utterly dominant in the post-season:

The 09 Lakers rank sixth all-time in leverage-adjusted playoff SRS

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/neil-warriors-2-0617.png?w=575

Ahead of teams like the 1992 Bulls, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 1997 Bulls.

Seventh all-time in ELO blend
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/after-all-that-the-warriors-arent-even-the-second-best-team-ever/


Ahead of teams like the 92 and 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers, 14 Spurs, and 72 and 87 Lakers.

The best NBA teams ever (according to Elo). The 09 Lakers ranked eighth all-time in overall ELO.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-warriors-are-in-the-goat-debate-but-they-blew-their-chance-to-end-it


The 09 Lakers are higher than teams like the 92 Bulls, 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers,2014 Spurs, etc

The 09 Lakers had the sixth greatest peak ELO Rating in NBA histroy at 1790.0:


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/last-years-warriors-werent-the-best-ever-but-this-years-might-be/

They completely dominated in the post-season:

Their post-season adjusted SRS of 12.7[/b] was the sixth highest since 1984: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors

Here they're ahead of teams like the 85 Lakers, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 97 Bulls.

The 09 Kobe/Pau/Odom was one of the absolute the most dominant trio we have on record. [b]The Kobe/Pau/Odom 09 trio (+17.5 in 3739 possessions) was the one of the very best we have recorded.

The 09 Lakers were also very arguably the best passing team in the league. Their team passer rating was #1 in the league and #61 all-time: http://www.backpicks.com/2018/07/15/nba-passer-ratings-since-1978/

They rank #11 on Sansterre's extremely in-depth look of the best teams in history: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2012241

[img]

Read on Twitter

?s=19[/img]

No I don't think he peaked at 22 years old.

Advanced metrics say the OKC Thunder were the greatest team of all-time last season. Do you agree with that?

1. No they don't.
2. If so, why would it change anything? 2025 OKC certainly are on the short list of the best teams ever.

[ceoofkobefans]

What does the CEO of Kobe fans view as his peak season? That is perhaps more interesting than his rank.

Think you could argue any year from 06-09 as his peak but I generally go with 08 since it’s his best mixture of everything (scoring playmaking defense and RS + PO play) but 03 and even 01 aren’t very far behind

[Joao Saraiva]

It depends on what you value, obviously. But I think it's reasonable to rank Kobe 06 pretty high. Their RS record was pretty great considering the roster and his ability as a scorer was tremendous. Defense was kind of meh for big portions but ultimately that's because he was doing so much on offense.

Playoffs were kind of a let down in the sense of how he finished the series, but still taking that Suns team to 7 with his roster was still an over achievement in my book.

I'd say considering that it's not very off to see Kobe as a top 10-15 peak all time. At most I can see a case for maybe a top 8 or something. Higher than that it's very hard, there are guys who bring a lot of impact on offense and on defense crush Kobe.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think its reasonable to have it top 15 off the top of my head but.. that is only if the person doing the ranking is using a heavy emphasis on team success/playoffs for peak years and is consistent with it. Otherwise, I don't think he has much of a case for top 15. Even comparing him to 06 Wade idk if he should be higher.

[falcolombardi]

I think its reasonable to have it top 15 off the top of my head but.. that is only if the person doing the ranking is using a heavy emphasis on team success/playoffs for peak years and is consistent with it. Otherwise, I don't think he has much of a case for top 15. Even comparing him to 06 Wade idk if he should be higher.

I am fine with kobe as a top 15 peak albeit i think you sell him a bit short (and i surprise myself a bit by "defending" kobe who i am used to troll about because of his stans being super annoying)

He was a great offensive engine who was overated defenseively but was not a targetable weakness (like say, nash), his game sustained well in the post season relative to most, had demostrable success pairing with talented big men and synergizing with them

Like i probably dont put him top 10 but i wouldnt disagree with someone ranking him highly as a resilient playoffs scorer/passer and ranked him above like, bird or garnett based in said playoffs resiliency even if his regular season efficiency is somewhat uninspiring

If the peaks project had not gone the bambi mother way i woukd see myself putting him 11-13 most likely

[falcolombardi]

That's a bold take.

Even if you think Kobe provided more value than Shaq, suggesting the gap is ginormous seems incredibly off-base.

I'm talking about the 09 Lakers... Advanced team metrics have them top 15 OAT and extremely comparable to teams like the 87 Lakers.

This is a team that completely dominated the league and yet they're hardly talked about.

They won 65 gms with a 7.3 SRS and won a great conference by ten games. They were one of the best "healthy/full-stregth" teams ever:



2008 Lakers: +9.7
2009 Lakers: +9.0

And they were utterly dominant in the post-season:

The 09 Lakers rank sixth all-time in leverage-adjusted playoff SRS

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/neil-warriors-2-0617.png?w=575

Ahead of teams like the 1992 Bulls, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 1997 Bulls.

Seventh all-time in ELO blend
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/after-all-that-the-warriors-arent-even-the-second-best-team-ever/


Ahead of teams like the 92 and 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers, 14 Spurs, and 72 and 87 Lakers.

The best NBA teams ever (according to Elo). The 09 Lakers ranked eighth all-time in overall ELO.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-warriors-are-in-the-goat-debate-but-they-blew-their-chance-to-end-it


The 09 Lakers are higher than teams like the 92 Bulls, 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers,2014 Spurs, etc

The 09 Lakers had the sixth greatest peak ELO Rating in NBA histroy at 1790.0:


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/last-years-warriors-werent-the-best-ever-but-this-years-might-be/

They completely dominated in the post-season:

Their post-season adjusted SRS of 12.7[/b] was the sixth highest since 1984: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors

Here they're ahead of teams like the 85 Lakers, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 97 Bulls.

The 09 Kobe/Pau/Odom was one of the absolute the most dominant trio we have on record. [b]The Kobe/Pau/Odom 09 trio (+17.5 in 3739 possessions) was the one of the very best we have recorded.

The 09 Lakers were also very arguably the best passing team in the league. Their team passer rating was #1 in the league and #61 all-time: http://www.backpicks.com/2018/07/15/nba-passer-ratings-since-1978/

They rank #11 on Sansterre's extremely in-depth look of the best teams in history: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2012241

[img]

Read on Twitter

?s=19[/img]

No I don't think he peaked at 22 years old.

Advanced metrics say the OKC Thunder were the greatest team of all-time last season. Do you agree with that?

Regular season wise? Yes pretty damn easily among the top contenders

Team literally walked to 68 wins while missing a top player for most of the season, and had more time ahead by +15 that trailing by any amount

[Cavsfansince84]

I am fine with kobe as a top 15 peak albeit i think you sell him a bit short (and i surprise myself a bit by "defending" kobe who i am used to troll about because of his stans being super annoying)

He was a great offensive engine who was overated defenseively but was not a targetable weakness (like say, nash), his game sustained well in the post season relative to most, had demostrable success pairing with talented big men and synergizing with them

Like i probably dont put him top 10 but i wouldnt disagree with someone ranking him highly as a resilient playoffs scorer/passer and ranked him above like, bird or garnett based in said playoffs resiliency even if his regular season efficiency is somewhat uninspiring

If the peaks project had not gone the bambi mother way i woukd see myself putting him 11-13 most likely

Sort of hard to say I am selling him short imo without seeing my actual list and my criteria. I barely have Kobe in my top 15 all time and that's even with him having a 10-12 year prime and 5 rings to fall back on so him making a top 15 peak is not an easy sell I would say. Top 20 maybe but even then you're also adding in guys like Wade, Pettit, KD, Reed, Walton and on and on it goes. I'm not sure he is top 20 tbh.

[One_and_Done]

I'm talking about the 09 Lakers... Advanced team metrics have them top 15 OAT and extremely comparable to teams like the 87 Lakers.

This is a team that completely dominated the league and yet they're hardly talked about.

They won 65 gms with a 7.3 SRS and won a great conference by ten games. They were one of the best "healthy/full-stregth" teams ever:



2008 Lakers: +9.7
2009 Lakers: +9.0

And they were utterly dominant in the post-season:

The 09 Lakers rank sixth all-time in leverage-adjusted playoff SRS

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/neil-warriors-2-0617.png?w=575

Ahead of teams like the 1992 Bulls, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 1997 Bulls.

Seventh all-time in ELO blend
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/after-all-that-the-warriors-arent-even-the-second-best-team-ever/


Ahead of teams like the 92 and 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers, 14 Spurs, and 72 and 87 Lakers.

The best NBA teams ever (according to Elo). The 09 Lakers ranked eighth all-time in overall ELO.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-warriors-are-in-the-goat-debate-but-they-blew-their-chance-to-end-it


The 09 Lakers are higher than teams like the 92 Bulls, 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers,2014 Spurs, etc

The 09 Lakers had the sixth greatest peak ELO Rating in NBA histroy at 1790.0:


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/last-years-warriors-werent-the-best-ever-but-this-years-might-be/

They completely dominated in the post-season:

Their post-season adjusted SRS of 12.7[/b] was the sixth highest since 1984: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors

Here they're ahead of teams like the 85 Lakers, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 97 Bulls.

The 09 Kobe/Pau/Odom was one of the absolute the most dominant trio we have on record. [b]The Kobe/Pau/Odom 09 trio (+17.5 in 3739 possessions) was the one of the very best we have recorded.

The 09 Lakers were also very arguably the best passing team in the league. Their team passer rating was #1 in the league and #61 all-time: http://www.backpicks.com/2018/07/15/nba-passer-ratings-since-1978/

They rank #11 on Sansterre's extremely in-depth look of the best teams in history: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2012241

[img]

Read on Twitter

?s=19[/img]

No I don't think he peaked at 22 years old.

Advanced metrics say the OKC Thunder were the greatest team of all-time last season. Do you agree with that?

Regular season wise? Yes pretty damn easily among the top contenders

Team literally walked to 68 wins while missing a top player for most of the season, and had more time ahead by +15 that trailing by any amount

They had a historic differential for the PS too. My question is does Prime see it that way?