John Stockton vs Chris Paul all time who you voting?

[theonlyclutch]

Well, Pippen only averaged 15.7 points per game on .343 fg shooting in the 1996 NBA Finals, and only 5.3 assists.
And Pippen again scored exactly 15.7ppg in the 1998 NBA Finals, and only 4.8 assists!

Stockton should've, imo, been more aggressive offensively in the finals. He avgs 8-9 shots in the reg season and same in 2 NBA finals. That's not gonna cut it when your 2nd best players takes 8-9 shots per game in a finals. He only scored 20 points in 1 NBA finals game out of 12. In comparison, Pippen scored over 20, three times in the 98 finals.

Stockton chose the right way to play, and elevated his teammates, and that's why the Jazz came closer than anyone to pushing the Bulls to Game 7 in NBA Finals (or as close as Phoenix 93). If Stockton shot more it might have hurt the flow of Jazz offense. He got everyone involved, and that's more valuable than shooting. Pippen's got a different role to Stockton.

LOL the same Jazz offense which choked its way to a 95 ORTG/80ppg average, including a stunning 54 point performance in the biggest stage? The floor general must be a total scrub to allow that

[Ritzo]

Stockton's offense is ass. Put CP3 in the Jazz roster with Malone and they're beating the Bulls twice in the Finals

[bonita_the_frog]

Stockton's offense is ass. Put CP3 in the Jazz roster with Malone and they're beating the Bulls twice in the Finals

Except for CP defense being only half as good as JS.

[Ritzo]

Stockton's offense is ass. Put CP3 in the Jazz roster with Malone and they're beating the Bulls twice in the Finals

Except for CP defense being only half as good as JS.

Are you drunk? CP3 is arguably the most fundamentally sound defender at the PG spot in history. He earned 9x All-defensive team selections (7x 1st Team and 2x 2nd Team) for a reason

[bonita_the_frog]

Stockton's offense is ass. Put CP3 in the Jazz roster with Malone and they're beating the Bulls twice in the Finals

Except for CP defense being only half as good as JS.

Are you drunk? CP3 is arguably the most fundamentally sound defender at the PG spot in history. He earned 9x All-defensive team selections (7x 1st Team and 2x 2nd Team) for a reason

Wow the same thing happened to CP3 that happened to Kobe

[JN61]

Chris Paul might be the all time overrated PG. He got schooled in playoffs by every great PG of his era. Standards which are seemingly held against every other superstar doesn't seem to held with him.

As opposed to Stockton, who in the playoffs repeatedly got his butt handed to him by Kenny Smith and Terry Porter? Who literally has ATG luck in supporting cast health (even Pippen missed games with bad back FFS) + longevity and achieved nothing?

What has Paul achieved? Case in point.

[JN61]

Stockton's offense is ass. Put CP3 in the Jazz roster with Malone and they're beating the Bulls twice in the Finals

Except for CP defense being only half as good as JS.

Are you drunk? CP3 is arguably the most fundamentally sound defender at the PG spot in history. He earned 9x All-defensive team selections (7x 1st Team and 2x 2nd Team) for a reason

And got schooled by every great PG of his era... His fundamentals only go so far as playing off ball defence. Any great PG and him defending them 1v1 and it was chicken dinner all night long for opponent.

[theonlyclutch]

Chris Paul might be the all time overrated PG. He got schooled in playoffs by every great PG of his era. Standards which are seemingly held against every other superstar doesn't seem to held with him.

As opposed to Stockton, who in the playoffs repeatedly got his butt handed to him by Kenny Smith and Terry Porter? Who literally has ATG luck in supporting cast health (even Pippen missed games with bad back FFS) + longevity and achieved nothing?

What has Paul achieved? Case in point.

Stockton had a GOAT-level roster in terms of consistency, longevity & health around him and achieved about as much as Paul did.

[Bergmaniac]

Chris Paul might be the all time overrated PG. He got schooled in playoffs by every great PG of his era. Standards which are seemingly held against every other superstar doesn't seem to held with him.

As opposed to Stockton, who in the playoffs repeatedly got his butt handed to him by Kenny Smith and Terry Porter? Who literally has ATG luck in supporting cast health (even Pippen missed games with bad back FFS) + longevity and achieved nothing?

What has Paul achieved? Case in point.

He achieved juсt as much as Stockton in terms of team playoff success and he did it in a stronger era and in a relatively stronger conference.

[Johnny Tomala]

1st Magic
2nd Oscar
3rd West
4th Curry
5th Stockton
6th Isaiah Thomas
7th Kidd
8th Paul
9th Cousy
10th Frazier

That's my top 10 from 4 years ago modified. I had Curry 5th then, he passed Stockton with a title in 2022. To answer the poll - Stockton.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

I think CP was a better player than Stockton, certainly had a higher status in the league, had a takeover ability Stockton didn’t have, had a superpower in his quickness, but to say that you’d have won both finals if you took out Stockton and replaced him with Paul, I don’t know. If CP had been as open to Griffin’s role expanding as Stockton was to Malone’s game expanding then maybe the Clips would’ve made the WCFs. FWIW Sloan didn’t think CP could be a flex PG, that’s why they took Deron over him in the draft.

[Chokic]

I like and respect John Stockton as a person and was fan of the jazz growing up but Stockton was carried hard by Malone. Great pg floor general but limited on offense. Individually he wasnt the same caliber player as cp3.

[Ritzo]

Except for CP defense being only half as good as JS.

Are you drunk? CP3 is arguably the most fundamentally sound defender at the PG spot in history. He earned 9x All-defensive team selections (7x 1st Team and 2x 2nd Team) for a reason

And got schooled by every great PG of his era... His fundamentals only go so far as playing off ball defence. Any great PG and him defending them 1v1 and it was chicken dinner all night long for opponent.

John Stockton's doodoo offense in the playoffs that cost the Jazz a series

1997 WCF 3-4 vs SuperSonics
9.9 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 7.6 apg, 39% FG, 20% 3FG, 57% FT

1994 WCF 1-4 vs Rockets
14.4 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 9.4 apg, 41% FG, 26% 3FG, 77% FT

1992 WCF 2-4 vs Trail Blazers
14.3 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 11.2 apg, 39% FG, 23% 3FG, 92% FT

1998 Finals 2-4 vs Bulls
9.7 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 8.7 apg, 49% FG, 22% 3FG, 72% FT

1999 WSF 2-4 vs Trail Blazers
10.5 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 9.2 apg, 45% FG, 16% 3FG, 72% FT

2000 WSF 1-4 vs Trail Blazers
9.4 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 8.4 apg, 40% FG, 9% 3FG, 80% FT

[f4p]

Except for CP defense being only half as good as JS.

Are you drunk? CP3 is arguably the most fundamentally sound defender at the PG spot in history. He earned 9x All-defensive team selections (7x 1st Team and 2x 2nd Team) for a reason

And got schooled by every great PG of his era... His fundamentals only go so far as playing off ball defence. Any great PG and him defending them 1v1 and it was chicken dinner all night long for opponent.

Well he played the guy everyone says is the best PG 3 times in curry and nuked Curry's numbers all 3 times.

2014:
PER: 24.1 down to 18.8
TS%: 61.0% to 59.9%

2018 (5 games)
PER: 28.5 down to 20.7
TS%: 67.5% to 56.0% (minus 11.5%!)

2019:
PER: 24.4 down to 16.4 (!!)
TS%: 64.1% to 53.9% (minus 10.2%!)

2 catastrophic declines for Steph and overall stats of 18.5 PER and 57 TS%. Compared to regular season stats somewhere around 25 PER and 64 TS%. And they split the 2 full series and CP3 was leading the other before being injured, and the actual games are 9-9 record, even though the series took place more in Steph's peak than cp3's.

[canada_dry]

Stockton should've, imo, been more aggressive offensively in the finals. He avgs 8-9 shots in the reg season and same in 2 NBA finals. That's not gonna cut it when your 2nd best players takes 8-9 shots per game in a finals. He only scored 20 points in 1 NBA finals game out of 12. In comparison, Pippen scored over 20, three times in the 98 finals.

Stockton chose the right way to play, and elevated his teammates, and that's why the Jazz came closer than anyone to pushing the Bulls to Game 7 in NBA Finals (or as close as Phoenix 93). If Stockton shot more it might have hurt the flow of Jazz offense. He got everyone involved, and that's more valuable than shooting. Pippen's got a different role to Stockton.

LOL the same Jazz offense which choked its way to a 95 ORTG/80ppg average, including a stunning 54 point performance in the biggest stage? The floor general must be a total scrub to allow that

Yeah... they just chose to shut Stockton down and it shut down their whole offense. With his one handed dribbling...it wasn't that hard.

I doubt they'd be able to do that to.that level of success against other great point guards...zeke for example.

I voted Stockton btw. So im not hating. But there's a difference between better and greater. A LOT of point guards were better/peaked higher than Stockton. Even in his own era. Greater? He's 1 of a handful.

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[canada_dry]

Are you drunk? CP3 is arguably the most fundamentally sound defender at the PG spot in history. He earned 9x All-defensive team selections (7x 1st Team and 2x 2nd Team) for a reason

And got schooled by every great PG of his era... His fundamentals only go so far as playing off ball defence. Any great PG and him defending them 1v1 and it was chicken dinner all night long for opponent.

Well he played the guy everyone says is the best PG 3 times in curry and nuked Curry's numbers all 3 times.

2014:
PER: 24.1 down to 18.8
TS%: 61.0% to 59.9%

2018 (5 games)
PER: 28.5 down to 20.7
TS%: 67.5% to 56.0% (minus 11.5%!)

2019:
PER: 24.4 down to 16.4 (!!)
TS%: 64.1% to 53.9% (minus 10.2%!)

2 catastrophic declines for Steph and overall stats of 18.5 PER and 57 TS%. Compared to regular season stats somewhere around 25 PER and 64 TS%. And they split the 2 full series and CP3 was leading the other before being injured, and the actual games are 9-9 record, even though the series took place more in Steph's peak than cp3's.

PER? Really?

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[f4p]

And got schooled by every great PG of his era... His fundamentals only go so far as playing off ball defence. Any great PG and him defending them 1v1 and it was chicken dinner all night long for opponent.

Well he played the guy everyone says is the best PG 3 times in curry and nuked Curry's numbers all 3 times.

2014:
PER: 24.1 down to 18.8
TS%: 61.0% to 59.9%

2018 (5 games)
PER: 28.5 down to 20.7
TS%: 67.5% to 56.0% (minus 11.5%!)

2019:
PER: 24.4 down to 16.4 (!!)
TS%: 64.1% to 53.9% (minus 10.2%!)

2 catastrophic declines for Steph and overall stats of 18.5 PER and 57 TS%. Compared to regular season stats somewhere around 25 PER and 64 TS%. And they split the 2 full series and CP3 was leading the other before being injured, and the actual games are 9-9 record, even though the series took place more in Steph's peak than cp3's.

PER? Really?

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Oh noes, not PER! The thing that summarizes the box score numbers people have quoted all throughout this thread. Besides, while you might somehow be able to argue we can't compare 2 different players with different roles with PER, we certainly can compare the same person with PER between the regular season and the playoffs. It's not like Steph's numbers tanked because he decided to completely change how he played basketball starting in mid April of 3 separate years.

And besides, can't really claim someone was chicken dinner (bbq chicken?) every time they faced someone if the other person's numbers crater in every matchup.

[og15]

And got schooled by every great PG of his era... His fundamentals only go so far as playing off ball defence. Any great PG and him defending them 1v1 and it was chicken dinner all night long for opponent.

Well he played the guy everyone says is the best PG 3 times in curry and nuked Curry's numbers all 3 times.

2014:
PER: 24.1 down to 18.8
TS%: 61.0% to 59.9%

2018 (5 games)
PER: 28.5 down to 20.7
TS%: 67.5% to 56.0% (minus 11.5%!)

2019:
PER: 24.4 down to 16.4 (!!)
TS%: 64.1% to 53.9% (minus 10.2%!)

2 catastrophic declines for Steph and overall stats of 18.5 PER and 57 TS%. Compared to regular season stats somewhere around 25 PER and 64 TS%. And they split the 2 full series and CP3 was leading the other before being injured, and the actual games are 9-9 record, even though the series took place more in Steph's peak than cp3's.

PER? Really?

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Interestingly enough, this actually becomes one of the situations where PER is cited in a relevant way, since it's being used to compare the same player to himself in the same time. Yea, PER to say one player is better than the other, of course that is not a good use.

I mentioned earlier in the thread in a spoiler about the claim of Paul getting cooked that it doesn't really pass the smell test. Now if the idea is that, when the other player gets him 1v1 and there's no other team defense relevant, they cook him, that's only as relevant as how much 1v1 is going on in a game. If it was a 1v1 battle that would be more important, but this isn't street ball, everyone isn't moving out of the way as guys go 1v1. Impact is measured on how well you affect the 5v5 outcome.

Westbrook for example as a big, athletic PG is a tough individual matchup for Paul, and Westbrook doesn't contain Paul either. In addition, almost all those guys cited had their SG and/or SF doing most of the defensive work on Paul while he was defending themost of the time, just based on roster construction. That also factors into individual production comparison.

[Statlanta]

Stockton because, even though peak Paul is better 9/10 you are not getting peak Paul, your getting Jannero Pargo/Pablo Prigioni/Eric Gordon/Jamal Crawford.

Your best player needs to play in games that matter. He missed the biggest game of his career(Game 7 of the 2018 WCF) and was the guy who gift wrapped Giannis title with his transition foul on him.

It's to the point that I don't think he would be any better playing alongside Kobe Bryant on the post championship teams than Nash was because he would be more ghost than Steve Blake once the playoff rolls around.

[CodeBreaker]

Whoever is the Playoff riser