Bulls announce D-Rose Jersey Retirement

[dougthonus]

How many players won MVP but only had 3 notable seasons of play in their career?

Derrick is just an odd case because there aren't a lot of players who won MVP who had their careers altered so fundamentally at such an early stage of their career.

Any player accomplishing what Rose did in 4 seasons is still extremely rare in the NBA. It doesn't matter that injuries derailed everything.

It depends on how specific you are being. Rose delivered two really great regular seasons and one good playoff run where we got to the ECF. There are a whole host of players that have done that and not gotten their jersey retired. The MVP is really what sets him apart from the uniqueness perspective, but if you remove that reward, what he did is not even remotely close to special ore jersey retirement worthy.

He falls well short of the typical criteria required for a jersey retirement in terms of number of productive years and post seasons results.

But again, unique case. He's only the second MVP with the Bulls, and his peak was amazing and he had a special connection to the city, and has lack of longevity was not his fault and was tragic. I'd retire his jersey too, but I could see the case either way.

[jc23]

It was a nice ceremony last year and to me that was enough.

[kodo]

The bar for jersey retirement:

Adrian Dantley: 7 years with Utah. 2 won postseason series.
Vince Carter: 7 years with Toronto. 1 won postseason series.
Avery Johnson: 7 years with San Antonio. 11 ppg. 2 won playoff series.
Vlade Divacs: 5 years with Sacramento. 11 ppg. 4 won playoff series.

The best comparison might be the Phoenix Suns Charles Barkley who was only with them for 4 years, but he did win an MVP for the Suns and got them to the Finals. Other 3 years? Never past the 1st round.

And he was in fact retired by Phoenix just for that 1 MVP and 1 Finals run.

[TheGOATRises007]

So are the bulls going to retire Demar Derozan jersey for three good years ? Derrick lead the bulls nowhere.

Be serious with this

[Red8911]

How many players won MVP but only had 3 notable seasons of play in their career?

Derrick is just an odd case because there aren't a lot of players who won MVP who had their careers altered so fundamentally at such an early stage of their career.

Any player accomplishing what Rose did in 4 seasons is still extremely rare in the NBA. It doesn't matter that injuries derailed everything.

It depends on how specific you are being. Rose delivered two really great regular seasons and one good playoff run where we got to the ECF. There are a whole host of players that have done that and not gotten their jersey retired. The MVP is really what sets him apart from the uniqueness perspective, but if you remove that reward, what he did is not even remotely close to special ore jersey retirement worthy.

He falls well short of the typical criteria required for a jersey retirement in terms of number of productive years and post seasons results.

But again, unique case. He's only the second MVP with the Bulls, and his peak was amazing and he had a special connection to the city, and has lack of longevity was not his fault and was tragic. I'd retire his jersey too, but I could see the case either way.

Let’s be honest even though Rose was MVP that season LeBron was still the best player then and he proved it to him and us once they met in the ECF.

This is coming from someone who loved Rose and hates LeBron. Regular season MVPs or records don’t mean sht if you don’t follow it up in the playoffs.

[Red Larrivee]

How many players won MVP but only had 3 notable seasons of play in their career?

Derrick is just an odd case because there aren't a lot of players who won MVP who had their careers altered so fundamentally at such an early stage of their career.

Any player accomplishing what Rose did in 4 seasons is still extremely rare in the NBA. It doesn't matter that injuries derailed everything.

It depends on how specific you are being. Rose delivered two really great regular seasons and one good playoff run where we got to the ECF. There are a whole host of players that have done that and not gotten their jersey retired. The MVP is really what sets him apart from the uniqueness perspective, but if you remove that reward, what he did is not even remotely close to special ore jersey retirement worthy.

He falls well short of the typical criteria required for a jersey retirement in terms of number of productive years and post seasons results.

But again, unique case. He's only the second MVP with the Bulls, and his peak was amazing and he had a special connection to the city, and has lack of longevity was not his fault and was tragic. I'd retire his jersey too, but I could see the case either way.

Looking around the league, there's not a consistent bar for jersey retirement outside of either:

1. Winning a championship as one of the 2-3 best players
2. Winning a regular season MVP

Everything else outside of that fluctuates. The Grizzlies retired Tony Allen's jersey. Vince Carter is in the rafters and Toronto didn't have much success when he was there. The Clippers will probably retire Paul and Griffin despite never getting to a conference finals with them.

I don't see the case against it. I think every team in the league would've retired his jersey if the exact same thing happened there.

[dougthonus]

Let’s be honest even though Rose was MVP that season LeBron was still the best player then and he proved it to him and us once they met in the ECF.

This is coming from someone who loved Rose and hates LeBron. Regular season MVPs or records don’t mean sht if you don’t follow it up in the playoffs.

LeBron was certainly the best player, but Rose was absolutely the MVP that year too. Bulls were 3-0 against the Heat and finished with a better record, and Rose didn't have two hall of famers next to him like LeBron.

If you think winning the MVP is worthless, I'm not going to try to change your mind, but he absolutely deserved the award, and it is certainly an extremely difficult award to ever get given there have only been two players in Bulls history that have won it, and I would guess a bunch of franchises have never had a single player win it.

[dougthonus]

Looking around the league, there's not a consistent bar for jersey retirement outside of either:

1. Winning a championship as one of the 2-3 best players
2. Winning a regular season MVP

Everything else outside of that fluctuates. The Grizzlies retired Tony Allen's jersey. Vince Carter is in the rafters and Toronto didn't have much success when he was there. The Clippers will probably retire Paul and Griffin despite never getting to a conference finals with them.

I don't see the case against it. I think every team in the league would've retired his jersey if the exact same thing happened there.

The biggest case against IMO is the Bulls standard for jersey retirements. The Bulls literally had two good seasons with Rose as the primary guy and peaked out at the ECF and only got out of the 1st round once. That's _really_ weak from an actual impact perspective.

[Red Larrivee]

The biggest case against IMO is the Bulls standard for jersey retirements. The Bulls literally had two good seasons with Rose as the primary guy and peaked out at the ECF and only got out of the 1st round once. That's _really_ weak from an actual impact perspective.

It's not like the Bulls are the Celtics or Lakers, where there's an abundance of HOF players and champions in the rafters. There's a Michael Jordan standard, and it can't be applied to everyone else.

The reality is the Bulls haven't had many great players. Rose had a better career than 99% of Bulls players even if it was abbreviated. If you had a player who accomplished the same things Rose did, but instead he did it spread out over 9 seasons, it wouldn't make that player more deserving.

[Lexluthor]

So are the bulls going to retire Demar Derozan jersey for three good years ? Derrick lead the bulls nowhere.

Be serious with this

I am . He couldn’t lead the bulls to the finals before the injuries. Demar was incredible his first year as a Bull.

[jnrjr79]

How many players won MVP but only had 3 notable seasons of play in their career?

Derrick is just an odd case because there aren't a lot of players who won MVP who had their careers altered so fundamentally at such an early stage of their career.

Any player accomplishing what Rose did in 4 seasons is still extremely rare in the NBA. It doesn't matter that injuries derailed everything.

It obviously matters, but I agree that he was a tremendous player for a relatively short period of time. It makes him an interesting case. I don't have strong feelings about it - it's pretty easy to see either side of the argument.

[jnrjr79]

Great. Now do Rodman and Kukoc. The Hall of Famers should be up there, as well.

Yeah, I think part of the context here is the Bulls have been pretty stingy with jersey retirements.

[jnrjr79]

The biggest case against IMO is the Bulls standard for jersey retirements. The Bulls literally had two good seasons with Rose as the primary guy and peaked out at the ECF and only got out of the 1st round once. That's _really_ weak from an actual impact perspective.

It's not like the Bulls are the Celtics or Lakers, where there's an abundance of HOF players and champions in the rafters. There's a Michael Jordan standard, and it can't be applied to everyone else.

The reality is the Bulls haven't had many great players. Rose had a better career than 99% of Bulls players even if it was abbreviated. If you had a player who accomplished the same things Rose did, but instead he did it spread out over 9 seasons, it wouldn't make that player more deserving.

It's a bit of an odd case, though. The Bulls only had one dominant run, but that run was still enough such that they have the 4th most championships of any NBA team.

[dougthonus]

The reality is the Bulls haven't had many great players. Rose had a better career than 99% of Bulls players even if it was abbreviated. If you had a player who accomplished the same things Rose did, but instead he did it spread out over 9 seasons, it wouldn't make that player more deserving.

The word "accomplished" is highly subjective here. You could argue Rodman, Toni, Noah, or Deng all accomplished more than Rose depending on your view point, which is the entire point of the discussion. You have narrowed your viewpoint into a very specific, narrow, singular view. I think that view is fine, but I don't think it's the only view.

[jnrjr79]

The reality is the Bulls haven't had many great players. Rose had a better career than 99% of Bulls players even if it was abbreviated. If you had a player who accomplished the same things Rose did, but instead he did it spread out over 9 seasons, it wouldn't make that player more deserving.

The word "accomplished" is highly subjective here. You could argue Rodman, Toni, Noah, or Deng all accomplished more than Rose depending on your view point, which is the entire point of the discussion. You have narrowed your viewpoint into a very specific, narrow, singular view. I think that view is fine, but I don't think it's the only view.

TBH, if the Bulls loosened up jersey retirement standards such that Toni and Rodman would have theirs retired, I'd absolutely want Noah included as well. I'm a bit less enthused about Deng, but I get it.

[Red Larrivee]

The reality is the Bulls haven't had many great players. Rose had a better career than 99% of Bulls players even if it was abbreviated. If you had a player who accomplished the same things Rose did, but instead he did it spread out over 9 seasons, it wouldn't make that player more deserving.

The word "accomplished" is highly subjective here. You could argue Rodman, Toni, Noah, or Deng all accomplished more than Rose depending on your view point, which is the entire point of the discussion. You have narrowed your viewpoint into a very specific, narrow, singular view. I think that view is fine, but I don't think it's the only view.

If we're talking individual accomplishments relative to team success, I just don't see it. Rose was the reason those teams had any sort of trajectory. If you remove him, those players don't have the space to do be as impactful on a team. So, his accomplishments have to be looked at in a different light even if it was shortened.

That said, I still would have retired Grant and Rodman. I wouldn't object to Kukoc and Noah being in the rafters either. Deng is a no for me.

My only point is that outside of being one of the Top 2-3 players on a title team (which usually includes Finals MVPs) or winning regular season MVP, there isn't a consistent bar around the league for jersey retirement. It's just about vibes and story after that. So, even though Rose's career is unique in being a short run, it's still in line with historical precedent because of the MVP. It'd be weird if he wasn't up there.

[nomorezorro]

if derrick rose were from literally any other city in the world there might be an interesting debate to have about whether his jersey merits retirement, but the fact is he's from chicago and people **** love him here and this decision is a no-brainer in the organization's eyes

[Red Larrivee]

The biggest case against IMO is the Bulls standard for jersey retirements. The Bulls literally had two good seasons with Rose as the primary guy and peaked out at the ECF and only got out of the 1st round once. That's _really_ weak from an actual impact perspective.

It's not like the Bulls are the Celtics or Lakers, where there's an abundance of HOF players and champions in the rafters. There's a Michael Jordan standard, and it can't be applied to everyone else.

The reality is the Bulls haven't had many great players. Rose had a better career than 99% of Bulls players even if it was abbreviated. If you had a player who accomplished the same things Rose did, but instead he did it spread out over 9 seasons, it wouldn't make that player more deserving.

It's a bit of an odd case, though. The Bulls only had one dominant run, but that run was still enough such that they have the 4th most championships of any NBA team.

I get it. The Bulls are still a premier franchise because of market and that dynasty. But, we're not the Yankees or Lakers or something like that. If we were, I'd maybe understand the case against Rose more.

Someone brought up Charles Barkley in Phoenix, and that's probably the closest comp. Finals in his MVP year. Didn't reach the conference finals after. Phoenix will probably retire Devin Booker with a Finals visit and 0 MVPs.

[dougthonus]

The reality is the Bulls haven't had many great players. Rose had a better career than 99% of Bulls players even if it was abbreviated. If you had a player who accomplished the same things Rose did, but instead he did it spread out over 9 seasons, it wouldn't make that player more deserving.

The word "accomplished" is highly subjective here. You could argue Rodman, Toni, Noah, or Deng all accomplished more than Rose depending on your view point, which is the entire point of the discussion. You have narrowed your viewpoint into a very specific, narrow, singular view. I think that view is fine, but I don't think it's the only view.

If we're talking individual accomplishments relative to team success, I just don't see it. Rose was the reason those teams had any sort of trajectory. If you remove him, those players don't have the space to do be as impactful on a team. So, his accomplishments have to be looked at in a different light even if it was shortened.

That said, I still would have retired Grant and Rodman. I wouldn't object to Kukoc and Noah being in the rafters either. Deng is a no for me.

My only point is that outside of being one of the Top 2-3 players on a title team (which usually includes Finals MVPs) or winning regular season MVP, there isn't a consistent bar around the league for jersey retirement. It's just about vibes and story after that. So, even though Rose's career is unique in being a short run, it's still in line with historical precedent because of the MVP. It'd be weird if he wasn't up there.

FWIW, it isn't really worth arguing, I agree with you generally. I think the only difference is you seem (in my mind) to be saying the case against doesn't even exist. I think it exists and has some valid points. I would side with retiring though for the reasons you mentioned.

[DuckIII]

if derrick rose were from literally any other city in the world there might be an interesting debate to have about whether his jersey merits retirement, but the fact is he's from chicago and people **** love him here and this decision is a no-brainer in the organization's eyes

Agree. Interestingly its the argument people like me make against retiring his number.

I always knew this was going to happen. There was never any doubt. Derrick Rose is one of the most beloved players in Bulls history and is near if not on the Mt. Rushmore of Chicago basketball players if you are looking at childhood through pro. From a business and marketing perspective you basically have to retire his number. He's so beloved that fans would actually revolt if the Bulls refused him the honor. As you said, no brainer.

For those of us who don't give a **** about the accident of his birthplace, the debate for retiring his number is different. Taking all emotion and sentimentality out of it (which is easy for me as an non-Chicagoan who has no emotional or sentimental feelings about Derrick Rose as a person at all), if I was in charge and marketing were not a factor, I wouldn't give more than 30 seconds thought to retiring his jersey. I wouldn't do it.

But then again there is a subjective factor to that too: What is your criteria? To me, jersey retirement is based on a career, not a pinnacle. Too bad Rose got injured young and his career was ruined. But that happened. I would retire someone like Noah before I would retire Rose. But this is all academic. The Bulls are a business and this is most certainly good business.