Fisher: Raptors are still shopping RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley

[HumbleRen]

OKC was by the numbers arguably the best defence of our times and they couldn’t stop the Pacers offence.

Measuring OG’s value by not being able to stop the Pacers offence with 2 defensive liabilities on the floor is kinda wild lol.

[CPT]

Just trade them both for LeBron


One year of playoffs with LeBron will be fun at least to watch.

Would unironically do this 11/10.

[Los_29]

OKC was by the numbers arguably the best defence of our times and they couldn’t stop the Pacers offence.

Measuring OG’s value by not being able to stop the Pacers offence with 2 defensive liabilities on the floor is kinda wild lol.

Pacers committed 120 turnovers in 7 games against OKC. OKC's defense definitely played some kind of role in slowing them down. It is also, once again, not the point I am making.

Is OG overpaid or not? The answer is obvious. Yes, he is. That's what this is about. OG in the playoffs did not make enough of an impact to warrant making 45 million a year. In fact, not once in his career has he shown to be capable of being that kind of player. He's an outstanding player though but the fact remains, that contract isn't a good one. Plain and simple.

[HumbleRen]

OKC was by the numbers arguably the best defence of our times and they couldn’t stop the Pacers offence.

Measuring OG’s value by not being able to stop the Pacers offence with 2 defensive liabilities on the floor is kinda wild lol.

Pacers committed 120 turnovers in 7 games against OKC. OKC's defense definitely played some kind of role in slowing them down. It is also, once again, not the point I am making.

Is OG overpaid or not? The answer is obvious. Yes, he is. That's what this is about. OG in the playoffs did not make enough of an impact to warrant making 45 million a year. In fact, not once in his career has he shown to be capable of being that kind of player. He's an outstanding player though but the fact remains, that contract isn't a good one. Plain and simple.

And we know that how? Removing IQ and RJ and adding OG turned them from a whatever playoff team to a contender. I don’t think any Knicks fans are having buyers remorse like we are. Value is subjective.

[Kingsway_fan]

OKC was by the numbers arguably the best defence of our times and they couldn’t stop the Pacers offence.

Measuring OG’s value by not being able to stop the Pacers offence with 2 defensive liabilities on the floor is kinda wild lol.

Pacers committed 120 turnovers in 7 games against OKC. OKC's defense definitely played some kind of role in slowing them down. It is also, once again, not the point I am making.

Is OG overpaid or not? The answer is obvious. Yes, he is. That's what this is about. OG in the playoffs did not make enough of an impact to warrant making 45 million a year. In fact, not once in his career has he shown to be capable of being that kind of player. He's an outstanding player though but the fact remains, that contract isn't a good one. Plain and simple.

And we know that how? Removing IQ and RJ and adding OG turned them from a whatever playoff team to a contender. I don’t think any Knicks fans are having buyers remorse like we are. Value is subjective.

I would still say its too soon. Lets give it one full year --- this year, to see if IQ can raise his game consistently.

[Los_29]

OKC was by the numbers arguably the best defence of our times and they couldn’t stop the Pacers offence.

Measuring OG’s value by not being able to stop the Pacers offence with 2 defensive liabilities on the floor is kinda wild lol.

Pacers committed 120 turnovers in 7 games against OKC. OKC's defense definitely played some kind of role in slowing them down. It is also, once again, not the point I am making.

Is OG overpaid or not? The answer is obvious. Yes, he is. That's what this is about. OG in the playoffs did not make enough of an impact to warrant making 45 million a year. In fact, not once in his career has he shown to be capable of being that kind of player. He's an outstanding player though but the fact remains, that contract isn't a good one. Plain and simple.

And we know that how? Removing IQ and RJ and adding OG turned them from a whatever playoff team to a contender. I don’t think any Knicks fans are having buyers remorse like we are. Value is subjective.

Know what? That OG is overpaid? We know that because it’s an obvious fact he’s not a top 25 player in this league. Not a single publication has him even as a top 40 player. Most have him in the 50s. Then you add the fact he’s not durable.

Knicks aren’t serious contenders though. They got embarrassed in the ECF and have no FRPs to dangle in trades. They are in a terrible conference which helps them but they will not compete with the elite teams in the league. We saw that last year.

We were a bad team with OG. He wouldn’t have helped turn our team around. And OG didn’t turn around this Knicks team. They won 47 games with RJ and IQ in 2022-23 and lost in the 2nd round. They lost in the 2nd round the following year with OG then went out and traded the farm for KAT and Bridges and got to the ECF. They’ve gotten one round better but that’s after trading Randle, DDV and 6 FRPs. lol.

[bobbyp3588]

Until I hear that RJ is officially on the move, I won’t believe for one second that he’s even been in trade conversations.
For idiotic reasons that are beyond me, a large percentage of posters on this board want to move off of RJ so they’ve been more than accepting of these bs rumours.
Fact of the matter is that RJ is essential to all the future success we will or will not have. He’s not just some player, he’s a hometown prodigy who wants to be here over everything else and his father is a local legend in charge of Canada Basketball.
Canadian ballers wanting to play for the Raps is essential to our future success. If the FO plays its cards well, we’ll be contending yearly from 2030 onwards with a constant Canadian-centric roster.
Being short-sighted where RJ is concerned could jeopardize this.
Turning RJ into a disgruntled former Raptor is a look we can’t afford. Provided we ever hope to challenge again, anyway.
Gots to play the long game.

[ConSarnit]

Until I hear that RJ is officially on the move, I won’t believe for one second that he’s even been in trade conversations.
For idiotic reasons that are beyond me, a large percentage of posters on this board want to move off of RJ so they’ve been more than accepting of these bs rumours.
Fact of the matter is that RJ is essential to all the future success we will or will not have. He’s not just some player, he’s a hometown prodigy who wants to be here over everything else and his father is a local legend in charge of Canada Basketball.
Canadian ballers wanting to play for the Raps is essential to our future success. If the FO plays its cards well, we’ll be contending yearly from 2030 onwards with a constant Canadian-centric roster.
Being short-sighted where RJ is concerned could jeopardize this.
Turning RJ into a disgruntled former Raptor is a look we can’t afford. Provided we ever hope to challenge again, anyway.
Gots to play the long game.

These are not acceptable reasons to keep RJ. The only reason we should be keeping players is because they are good. Are you in favor of overpaying RJ on the ever so slight chance it might attract other Canadian players? There is zero evidence that keeping RJ would help our chances at a) actually winning anything given his on floor production or b) getting bigger Canadian stars (I’m assuming you mean SGA) to sign here.

Imagine overpaying RJ on the hope that we might contend 5 years from now. This is one of the worst team building strategies I’ve ever heard.

[Tacoma]

Pacers committed 120 turnovers in 7 games against OKC. OKC's defense definitely played some kind of role in slowing them down. It is also, once again, not the point I am making.

Is OG overpaid or not? The answer is obvious. Yes, he is. That's what this is about. OG in the playoffs did not make enough of an impact to warrant making 45 million a year. In fact, not once in his career has he shown to be capable of being that kind of player. He's an outstanding player though but the fact remains, that contract isn't a good one. Plain and simple.

And we know that how? Removing IQ and RJ and adding OG turned them from a whatever playoff team to a contender. I don’t think any Knicks fans are having buyers remorse like we are. Value is subjective.

Know what? That OG is overpaid? We know that because it’s an obvious fact he’s not a top 25 player in this league. Not a single publication has him even as a top 40 player. Most have him in the 50s. Then you add the fact he’s not durable.

Knicks aren’t serious contenders though. They got embarrassed in the ECF and have no FRPs to dangle in trades. They are in a terrible conference which helps them but they will not compete with the elite teams in the league. We saw that last year.

We were a bad team with OG. He wouldn’t have helped turn our team around. And OG didn’t turn around this Knicks team. They won 47 games with RJ and IQ in 2022-23 and lost in the 2nd round. They lost in the 2nd round the following year with OG then went out and traded the farm for KAT and Bridges and got to the ECF. They’ve gotten one round better but that’s after trading Randle, DDV and 6 FRPs. lol.

Not sure what you're arguing here. Is OG overpaid? Yes. But so is both RJ and IQ. Par for the course.

NYK were 37-45 in 2022 season. In 2023 season, they were 19-18 before the trade and 28-17 after the trade. Since the trade, NY has been 64-32 in games that OG played. Of course there are other variables but OG was a big factor and they've been a much better team since the trade.

One of the big factors in not wanting to pay OG was his injury history. But he's been relatively healthy in NY and ironically we overpaid IQ who has missed more games than OG over the same period. RJ was on the trading block in NY for while, and now it's the same situation here. He's not really viewed as a positive asset. If you ask NYK fans whether they'd do the trade again today, I'd bet it would be near unanimous they'd answer yes.

[Los_29]

And we know that how? Removing IQ and RJ and adding OG turned them from a whatever playoff team to a contender. I don’t think any Knicks fans are having buyers remorse like we are. Value is subjective.

Know what? That OG is overpaid? We know that because it’s an obvious fact he’s not a top 25 player in this league. Not a single publication has him even as a top 40 player. Most have him in the 50s. Then you add the fact he’s not durable.

Knicks aren’t serious contenders though. They got embarrassed in the ECF and have no FRPs to dangle in trades. They are in a terrible conference which helps them but they will not compete with the elite teams in the league. We saw that last year.

We were a bad team with OG. He wouldn’t have helped turn our team around. And OG didn’t turn around this Knicks team. They won 47 games with RJ and IQ in 2022-23 and lost in the 2nd round. They lost in the 2nd round the following year with OG then went out and traded the farm for KAT and Bridges and got to the ECF. They’ve gotten one round better but that’s after trading Randle, DDV and 6 FRPs. lol.

Not sure what you're arguing here. Is OG overpaid? Yes. But so is both RJ and IQ. Par for the course.

NYK were 37-45 in 2022 season. In 2023 season, they were 19-18 before the trade and 28-17 after the trade. Since the trade, NY has been 64-32 in games that OG played. Of course there are other variables but OG was a big factor and they've been a much better team since the trade.

One of the big factors in not wanting to pay OG was his injury history. But he's been relatively healthy in NY and ironically we overpaid IQ who has missed more games than OG over the same period. RJ was on the trading block in NY for while, and now it's the same situation here. He's not really viewed as a positive asset. If you ask NYK fans whether they'd do the trade again today, I'd bet it would be near unanimous they'd answer yes.

You need to check again. Knicks were 47-35 the year before they got OG. They lost to the Heat in 6. That Heat team went to the NBA finals.

Your timeline is way off.

The reality is the Knicks went out and got KAT and Bridges and that got them into the ECF. With OG the previous year they made it to the same round that IQ and RJ made it to the year prior. And at least that team lost to the team that went to the finals. The Knicks team in 2024 lost to the Pacers who got swept by the Celtics.

[HumbleRen]

Until I hear that RJ is officially on the move, I won’t believe for one second that he’s even been in trade conversations.
For idiotic reasons that are beyond me, a large percentage of posters on this board want to move off of RJ so they’ve been more than accepting of these bs rumours.
Fact of the matter is that RJ is essential to all the future success we will or will not have. He’s not just some player, he’s a hometown prodigy who wants to be here over everything else and his father is a local legend in charge of Canada Basketball.
Canadian ballers wanting to play for the Raps is essential to our future success. If the FO plays its cards well, we’ll be contending yearly from 2030 onwards with a constant Canadian-centric roster.
Being short-sighted where RJ is concerned could jeopardize this.
Turning RJ into a disgruntled former Raptor is a look we can’t afford. Provided we ever hope to challenge again, anyway.
Gots to play the long game.

These are not acceptable reasons to keep RJ. The only reason we should be keeping players is because they are good. Are you in favor of overpaying RJ on the ever so slight chance it might attract other Canadian players? There is zero evidence that keeping RJ would help our chances at a) actually winning anything given his on floor production or b) getting bigger Canadian stars (I’m assuming you mean SGA) to sign here.

Imagine overpaying RJ on the hope that we might contend 5 years from now. This is one of the worst team building strategies I’ve ever heard.

I tune out whenever I see people bring up the fact that RJ is a hometown kid lol or that he’s some prodigy.

He was the third pick in a draft that happened over 5+ years ago and is considered universally a disappointment.

We don’t give contracts based on nationality. If he performs well on defence, he’ll get an extension. If he’s a net negative on defence again like he has his entire career, he won’t get an extension. It’s that simple.

[JB7]

Until I hear that RJ is officially on the move, I won’t believe for one second that he’s even been in trade conversations.
For idiotic reasons that are beyond me, a large percentage of posters on this board want to move off of RJ so they’ve been more than accepting of these bs rumours.
Fact of the matter is that RJ is essential to all the future success we will or will not have. He’s not just some player, he’s a hometown prodigy who wants to be here over everything else and his father is a local legend in charge of Canada Basketball.
Canadian ballers wanting to play for the Raps is essential to our future success. If the FO plays its cards well, we’ll be contending yearly from 2030 onwards with a constant Canadian-centric roster.
Being short-sighted where RJ is concerned could jeopardize this.
Turning RJ into a disgruntled former Raptor is a look we can’t afford. Provided we ever hope to challenge again, anyway.
Gots to play the long game.

These are not acceptable reasons to keep RJ. The only reason we should be keeping players is because they are good. Are you in favor of overpaying RJ on the ever so slight chance it might attract other Canadian players? There is zero evidence that keeping RJ would help our chances at a) actually winning anything given his on floor production or b) getting bigger Canadian stars (I’m assuming you mean SGA) to sign here.

Imagine overpaying RJ on the hope that we might contend 5 years from now. This is one of the worst team building strategies I’ve ever heard.

I tune out whenever I see people bring up the fact that RJ is a hometown kid lol or that he’s some prodigy.

He was the third pick in a draft that happened over 5+ years ago and is considered universally a disappointment.

We don’t give contracts based on nationality. If he performs well on defence, he’ll get an extension. If he’s a net negative on defence again like he has his entire career, he won’t get an extension. It’s that simple.

I believe RJ is the leading scorer from that draft class, which means he has been the most healthy and consistent scorer. If he is a disappointment, what are Zion and Ja?

[HumbleRen]

These are not acceptable reasons to keep RJ. The only reason we should be keeping players is because they are good. Are you in favor of overpaying RJ on the ever so slight chance it might attract other Canadian players? There is zero evidence that keeping RJ would help our chances at a) actually winning anything given his on floor production or b) getting bigger Canadian stars (I’m assuming you mean SGA) to sign here.

Imagine overpaying RJ on the hope that we might contend 5 years from now. This is one of the worst team building strategies I’ve ever heard.

I tune out whenever I see people bring up the fact that RJ is a hometown kid lol or that he’s some prodigy.

He was the third pick in a draft that happened over 5+ years ago and is considered universally a disappointment.

We don’t give contracts based on nationality. If he performs well on defence, he’ll get an extension. If he’s a net negative on defence again like he has his entire career, he won’t get an extension. It’s that simple.

I believe RJ is the leading scorer from that draft class, which means he has been the most healthy and consistent scorer. If he is a disappointment, what are Zion and Ja?

That means nothing outside of just being available more often than those other players. He's just been able to play more games than them. It's like saying Tobias Harris is a more consistent and healthy scorer than Kawhi Leonard cause he has more career points than him in that draft class.

Ja and Zion are disappointing because they aren't available enough on the court. RJ is available, his disappointment is more so related to not being good enough, that doesn't apply to Ja and Zion. They're both all nba caliber players when they touch the court, RJ will never be an all star. They're all disappointing but in different ways.

[JB7]

I tune out whenever I see people bring up the fact that RJ is a hometown kid lol or that he’s some prodigy.

He was the third pick in a draft that happened over 5+ years ago and is considered universally a disappointment.

We don’t give contracts based on nationality. If he performs well on defence, he’ll get an extension. If he’s a net negative on defence again like he has his entire career, he won’t get an extension. It’s that simple.

I believe RJ is the leading scorer from that draft class, which means he has been the most healthy and consistent scorer. If he is a disappointment, what are Zion and Ja?

That means nothing outside of just being available more often than those other players. He's just been able to play more games than them. It's like saying Tobias Harris is a more consistent and healthy scorer than Kawhi Leonard cause he has more career points than him in that draft class.

Ja and Zion are disappointing because they aren't available enough on the court. RJ is available, his disappointment is more so related to not being good enough, that doesn't apply to Ja and Zion. They're both all nba caliber players when they touch the court, RJ will never be an all star. They're all disappointing but in different ways.

To still be the leading scorer of his draft class is definitely something.

It is not just being available. It is also averaging 20pts a game over his career.

He was selected after both Zion and Ja, so expectations were never that he would be better than them.

[tsherkin]

Bingo! That’s exactly what we are discussing. I like OG, he’s a great player. But he’s not a 45 million a year player. And he most certainly didn’t play like one in the playoffs.

It seems like every post has directly or indirectly agreed with me about him being overpaid. I just think it’s hard to be critical of OG because of how long he played here for. It’s hard not to like him as a player. But I think it’s fair to point out his contract and his flaws as a player.

I don't particularly care how long he played here. But he is more than just a 3+D guy, and I think a lot of the discussion is underrating his performance in the Knicks/Pacers series because he had a rough shooting series. He did a lot for the team, and his defensive impact is heavily understated by people ITT. I think the presumption is that elite defense always succeeds, which is inaccurate in the extreme, but he did a great job as a team defender and executed the plan correctly. The fact that Siakam was hitting shots or Haliburton was burning Brunson and so forth isn't really on OG. Sometimes, you do everything right and it simply doesn't matter.

He's also not a $45 million guy until 27-28. I'm being a little pedantic, but he's a 39 mil guy, or just above, for 25-26. He's a little over 25% of their cap right now. That's about the same percentage as Lamar Odom cost the Lakers in the 09 title season, and with impact fairly similar.

Don't let the raw number fool you.

I see what you mean about it being difficult to keep that shot distribution up and teams scheming for it. I think expecting the 60+ true shooting and JUST that being the shot diet is a lot to ask for so hes gonna have to sprinkle in a bit more. Hence why i said the same ballpark. Those exact efficiency stats would be a little wild lol.

Sure. To be fair, I will be happy if he's a 100 TS+ player. This year, that would have been around 57.6% TS (league-average) to just below that. I'd be happy with that. But he was a 54.7% TS guy this year (95 TS+), which was horrendous, so the bar is quite low for him right now as far as what we need him to do. And in all fairness, second options are frequently around that level, so that would be reasonably decent for us.

But the stats when the team was healthy this year his ts% was still pretty good and much better playing off iq and scottie vs when the ball was in his hands a lot due to necessity because the team wasn't healthy. I think that shows something about him knowing his role and leaning into it.

He had two months other than October (2 GP) where he was at or above league-average efficiency, and one of those was his 7-game February. He didn't do much of anything worthy of note in terms of scoring efficiency this year. Had he been any worse, he would have been Scottie, you know?

I don't think RJ's attitude is the problem, it's just skillset. He's been reasonably adaptable for us, and he's shown improvement in a bunch of areas. He's just ass at shooting the ball from anywhere beyond 10 feet that isn't the right-side corner, and he has no shot off a live dribble, so he has some limitations. But that doesn't mean we can't find a way for him to be useful to us, to be sure.

I think my point is I'm not skeptical as much as i am quite frankly expecting it. And as i said before it would be a huge disappointment if it doesn't happen and then we'd have to consider our options moving forward. I don't view it as a season where if he fails to be that guy in that role then we can say "yeah he failed but i was skeptical to begin with " You know what I mean? Like no. Ive seen him do it when needed. Its sink or swim now.

I think I'm skeptical because he has a fairly major skill deficiency, and he has a major issue at the foul line.

Idk if that means im being too easy or too tough on him.

I think you're being optimistic. I don't think there's any reason to characterize it as too easy or too tough, to be honest, because we authentically simply do not know. He could shoot 75% at the line again, crush it from the corner and look great... or he could look like we're letting Ben Wallace take jumpers, and either of those is approximately as likely, right? So we'll have to see. Statistically, it's LIKELY that he'll be up over 70% at the line, there's a reasonably good chance he'll shoot at least 35% from 3, he draws fouls well, so we'll just have to see what we can do with him in the new environment with BI and everything.

I'm just a serial pessimist, and I prefer to be pleasantly surprised than rudely awakened if and when I'm wrong, you know? xD

[tsherkin]

To still be the leading scorer of his draft class is definitely something.

It is not just being available. It is also averaging 20pts a game over his career.

Honestly, this means fairly little. And he hasn't actually average 20 PPG on his career, he's averaged 18.8, and posted 20+ ppg in only 3 seasons, including this most recently one where he was almost 3% worse than league average efficiency, which is very bad.

Raw volume isn't really something that worthy of note, because it largely describes opportunity more than anything else. He's a 15.6 FGA/g player on his career; it'd be reasonably shocking if he DIDN'T average near to 20 ppg based on shot volume alone. He's a 53.1% TS guy on his career, 93 TS+. He's been pretty awful as a volume scorer to date. That average, it doesn't really mean a lot more than just that he shoots a lot. That's the specific issue with him.

Trying to evaluate a player based on volume alone is a very archaic mentality.

[Raptors Realtor]

I believe RJ is the leading scorer from that draft class, which means he has been the most healthy and consistent scorer. If he is a disappointment, what are Zion and Ja?

That means nothing outside of just being available more often than those other players. He's just been able to play more games than them. It's like saying Tobias Harris is a more consistent and healthy scorer than Kawhi Leonard cause he has more career points than him in that draft class.

Ja and Zion are disappointing because they aren't available enough on the court. RJ is available, his disappointment is more so related to not being good enough, that doesn't apply to Ja and Zion. They're both all nba caliber players when they touch the court, RJ will never be an all star. They're all disappointing but in different ways.

To still be the leading scorer of his draft class is definitely something.

It is not just being available. It is also averaging 20pts a game over his career.

He was selected after both Zion and Ja, so expectations were never that he would be better than them.

If HumbleRen had his way we'd have Walter, Shead and a trunk full of mid/late 1st & 2nd round picks... The guy complains about everyone on our roster.

[HumbleRen]

That means nothing outside of just being available more often than those other players. He's just been able to play more games than them. It's like saying Tobias Harris is a more consistent and healthy scorer than Kawhi Leonard cause he has more career points than him in that draft class.

Ja and Zion are disappointing because they aren't available enough on the court. RJ is available, his disappointment is more so related to not being good enough, that doesn't apply to Ja and Zion. They're both all nba caliber players when they touch the court, RJ will never be an all star. They're all disappointing but in different ways.

To still be the leading scorer of his draft class is definitely something.

It is not just being available. It is also averaging 20pts a game over his career.

He was selected after both Zion and Ja, so expectations were never that he would be better than them.

If HumbleRen had his way we'd have Walter, Shead and a trunk full of mid/late 1st & 2nd round picks... The guy complains about everyone on our roster.

Would love to have a mid 1st round pick for RJ, sadly I don’t think RJ can even fetch that.

[HumbleRen]

To still be the leading scorer of his draft class is definitely something.

It is not just being available. It is also averaging 20pts a game over his career.

Honestly, this means fairly little. And he hasn't actually average 20 PPG on his career, he's averaged 18.8, and posted 20+ ppg in only 3 seasons, including this most recently one where he was almost 3% worse than league average efficiency, which is very bad.

Raw volume isn't really something that worthy of note, because it largely describes opportunity more than anything else. He's a 15.6 FGA/g player on his career; it'd be reasonably shocking if he DIDN'T average near to 20 ppg based on shot volume alone. He's a 53.1% TS guy on his career, 93 TS+. He's been pretty awful as a volume scorer to date. That average, it doesn't really mean a lot more than just that he shoots a lot. That's the specific issue with him.

Trying to evaluate a player based on volume alone is a very archaic mentality.

Bingo.

[JB7]

To still be the leading scorer of his draft class is definitely something.

It is not just being available. It is also averaging 20pts a game over his career.

Honestly, this means fairly little. And he hasn't actually average 20 PPG on his career, he's averaged 18.8, and posted 20+ ppg in only 3 seasons, including this most recently one where he was almost 3% worse than league average efficiency, which is very bad.

Raw volume isn't really something that worthy of note, because it largely describes opportunity more than anything else. He's a 15.6 FGA/g player on his career; it'd be reasonably shocking if he DIDN'T average near to 20 ppg based on shot volume alone. He's a 53.1% TS guy on his career, 93 TS+. He's been pretty awful as a volume scorer to date. That average, it doesn't really mean a lot more than just that he shoots a lot. That's the specific issue with him.

Trying to evaluate a player based on volume alone is a very archaic mentality.

Bingo.

I wasn’t evaluating RJ solely based volume. I imagine you wouldn’t evaluate him based on one or two advanced metrics.

The fact that 2 of 30 NBA teams have trusted in RJ to take that volume of shots, means there is some trust in his ability to score.