Shaq vs. Duncan: Better Peak and Better Career

[Packbuckman]

This board really under rates Shaq and over rates Duncan. Duncan got drafted in the perfect situation to a playoff team with a great big man in Robinson and one of the greatest coaches ever. Shaq is the more talented and dominate player his career is just better. I don’t have Duncan in my top 10 of greatest players like most do on here Shaq I do.

[MavsDirk41]

Peak its Shaq and career its Duncan

[Special_Puppy]

This board really under rates Shaq and over rates Duncan. Duncan got drafted in the perfect situation to a playoff team with a great big man in Robinson and one of the greatest coaches ever. Shaq is the more talented and dominate player his career is just better. I don’t have Duncan in my top 10 of greatest players like most do on here Shaq I do.

Not having Duncan in your top 10 is just preposterous. His all time floor is just so high because of his longevity

[xb3at band1tx]

my first thought was shaq peak/TD career

but man…

the threepeat/3 Finals MVPs in a row is legit game breaking stuff i can see the argument for shaq even though TD was the better leader and teammate his entire career

[Packbuckman]

This board really under rates Shaq and over rates Duncan. Duncan got drafted in the perfect situation to a playoff team with a great big man in Robinson and one of the greatest coaches ever. Shaq is the more talented and dominate player his career is just better. I don’t have Duncan in my top 10 of greatest players like most do on here Shaq I do.

Not having Duncan in your top 10 is just preposterous. His all time floor is just so high because of his longevity

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Dream
LeBron
Oscar

I go by talent not longevity he is not as talented as these 10 players
I also have Kobe above him too he is in that 12-15 range he would not have won those titles if he didn’t get drafted by the spurs period. I could put some other top pf in that position they win as many titles if not more like Giannis or KG who I think both are more talented.

[tsherkin]

At Shaw's apex... an older Hakeem Olajawan stopped him. Duncan was just better overall...the way MJ and Kobe were better than Lebron.

Interesting. I just looked up Hakeem vs. Shaq head to head this morning. Shaq as a whole got the better of Hakeem over the course of their careers and in the playoffs Hakeem took a slight edge. Just from a statistical standpoint that is. Hakeem’s defense is touted as better than Shaq’s, but in their head to head matchups Shaq had better points, rebounds, assists, and total blocks was almost identical. I’m not trying to bash Hakeem at all as like many I consider him one of the all time greats…but the numbers are the numbers.[/quote]

Olajuwon WAS a considerably better defender. That doesn't always express in direct, H2H numbers. Russell was a better defender than Wilt, but he often couldn't do much with Wilt straight-up, so he emphasized impacting the team more so, which is also what Olajuwon did.

[Daddy 801]

At Shaw's apex... an older Hakeem Olajawan stopped him. Duncan was just better overall...the way MJ and Kobe were better than Lebron.

Interesting. I just looked up Hakeem vs. Shaq head to head this morning. Shaq as a whole got the better of Hakeem over the course of their careers and in the playoffs Hakeem took a slight edge. Just from a statistical standpoint that is. Hakeem’s defense is touted as better than Shaq’s, but in their head to head matchups Shaq had better points, rebounds, assists, and total blocks was almost identical. I’m not trying to bash Hakeem at all as like many I consider him one of the all time greats…but the numbers are the numbers.

Olajuwon WAS a considerably better defender. That doesn't always express in direct, H2H numbers. Russell was a better defender than Wilt, but he often couldn't do much with Wilt straight-up, so he emphasized impacting the team more so, which is also what Olajuwon did.[/quote]

I was confused at first because it didn’t quote me right. I didn’t write the part that was quoted, but the second part.

Anyways. I agree. From watching them without looking at stats I would say Hakeem was better in defense and clearly a more rounded offensive player. But that’s why the stats surprised me. Shaq had better stats vs. Hakeem in head to head.

I like stats because it makes you reanalyze things. It’s one of those things that make you think…hmmm. Was the style and way Hakeem scored or defended make you think it was better than Shaqs because it was more beautiful? Are we undervaluing Shaq because he did in a brute way? Was Hakeem better vs. other bigs at the time than Shaq but just had problems with Shaq (who didn’t)?

I love Hakeem. Probably the most undervalued big in the game. I always bring him up in discussions with my son which are always top five this. goat this, best at this thing, best footwork, etc.

But at the end of the day stats do matter. And in head to head Shaq beat out Hakeem and their careers/primes weren’t wildly different. Yes they weren’t identical, but they overlapped a good amount.

It’s just interesting to note. I was surprised when I looked up the stats to be honest. You could easily argue Hakeem had the slight edge in the playoffs.

It is what it is.

[tsherkin]

I was confused at first because it didn’t quote me right. I didn’t write the part that was quoted, but the second part.

Sorry about that.

I love Hakeem. Probably the most undervalued big in the game. I always bring him up in discussions with my son which are always top five this. goat this, best at this thing, best footwork, etc.

He was awesome. A pleasure to watch and extremely good on top of it.

[bonita_the_frog]

I would say Shaq had the better peak.
Duncan may have had the better career. Arguable.

Although Shaq's longevity is under appreciated. From 93-03 he averaged 28/12/3 on 58% shooting. That's ten years of dominance.

But from 1992-93 to 2002-03 Shaq averaged only 2.6 blocks per game (and 27.6 points, 12.1 rebounds, .577 field), and in the playoffs during that period he averaged only 2.3 blocks (and 28.1 points, 12.9 rebounds, .558 field).

[dhsilv2]

This board really under rates Shaq and over rates Duncan. Duncan got drafted in the perfect situation to a playoff team with a great big man in Robinson and one of the greatest coaches ever. Shaq is the more talented and dominate player his career is just better. I don’t have Duncan in my top 10 of greatest players like most do on here Shaq I do.

Pop was a new head coach who'd been the team's GM and was nearly fired multiple times. Duncan joined a team with another big man...forcing him to adapt to playing in a two big man system unlike what he had learned in college. While I certainly think it was nice to come to a contender right away, the rest of this was hardly some perfect fit. The spurs for a decade had failed to build a championship level support around Robinson.

[dhsilv2]

This board really under rates Shaq and over rates Duncan. Duncan got drafted in the perfect situation to a playoff team with a great big man in Robinson and one of the greatest coaches ever. Shaq is the more talented and dominate player his career is just better. I don’t have Duncan in my top 10 of greatest players like most do on here Shaq I do.

Not having Duncan in your top 10 is just preposterous. His all time floor is just so high because of his longevity

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Dream
LeBron
Oscar

I go by talent not longevity he is not as talented as these 10 players
I also have Kobe above him too he is in that 12-15 range he would not have won those titles if he didn’t get drafted by the spurs period. I could put some other top pf in that position they win as many titles if not more like Giannis or KG who I think both are more talented.

Talent? So where's Greg Oden? How is Bird on here? Talent? Jordan went 3rd in his own draft based on talent.

[Packbuckman]

Not having Duncan in your top 10 is just preposterous. His all time floor is just so high because of his longevity

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Dream
LeBron
Oscar

I go by talent not longevity he is not as talented as these 10 players
I also have Kobe above him too he is in that 12-15 range he would not have won those titles if he didn’t get drafted by the spurs period. I could put some other top pf in that position they win as many titles if not more like Giannis or KG who I think both are more talented.

Talent? So where's Greg Oden? How is Bird on here? Talent? Jordan went 3rd in his own draft based on talent.

Jordan went 3rd because big men were more valuable to the league back then after the first year every GM knew they **** up not drafting Jordan. Bird was very talented he could pass shoot rebound I didn’t say athleticism only talent is a combination of both when it comes to basketball. Wilt who I have higher on my all time list then most is the perfect combination of both. Greg Oden couldn’t stay healthy who the hell knows what he could be he never played.

[dhsilv2]

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Dream
LeBron
Oscar

I go by talent not longevity he is not as talented as these 10 players
I also have Kobe above him too he is in that 12-15 range he would not have won those titles if he didn’t get drafted by the spurs period. I could put some other top pf in that position they win as many titles if not more like Giannis or KG who I think both are more talented.

Talent? So where's Greg Oden? How is Bird on here? Talent? Jordan went 3rd in his own draft based on talent.

Jordan went 3rd because big men were more valuable to the league back then after the first year every GM knew they **** up not drafting Jordan. Bird was very talented he could pass shoot rebound I didn’t say athleticism only talent is a combination of both when it comes to basketball. Wilt who I have higher on my all time list then most is the perfect combination of both. Greg Oden couldn’t stay healthy who the hell knows what he could be he never played.

Talent is your ability to get good, not being good at something. Wilt for example, is about as athletically talented as you get. Skills, not remotely skilled. Bird clearly isn't the most talented guy. Jordan being only 6'5 is a reason he isn't one of the 10 most talented guys ever. He had to put in work. Odds are if you go by talent, you very well might find the 10 most talented guys ever didn't even make the league or were out shortly because they just didn't care.

[Packbuckman]

Talent? So where's Greg Oden? How is Bird on here? Talent? Jordan went 3rd in his own draft based on talent.

Jordan went 3rd because big men were more valuable to the league back then after the first year every GM knew they **** up not drafting Jordan. Bird was very talented he could pass shoot rebound I didn’t say athleticism only talent is a combination of both when it comes to basketball. Wilt who I have higher on my all time list then most is the perfect combination of both. Greg Oden couldn’t stay healthy who the hell knows what he could be he never played.

Talent is your ability to get good, not being good at something. Wilt for example, is about as athletically talented as you get. Skills, not remotely skilled. Bird clearly isn't the most talented guy. Jordan being only 6'5 is a reason he isn't one of the 10 most talented guys ever. He had to put in work. Odds are if you go by talent, you very well might find the 10 most talented guys ever didn't even make the league or were out shortly because they just didn't care.

Talent is both what your born with and what you do with that talent. Wilt and Jordan are born naturally gifted athletes now what makes them great is their minds to want to be great. Jordan was a superb athlete who jump out of the gym with hang time 2nd to none who was quick as a cat at 6’6 but it was determination killer instinct made him the best ever. Wilt had more skills then people give him credit for he is right up there with Jordan for me his only weakness was free throws. Sure there has been people out there over the years that had natural talent like the Goat Manigault who Kareem said was the most gifted basketball player he ever seen. But like many others for whatever reason they never made it

[dhsilv2]

Jordan went 3rd because big men were more valuable to the league back then after the first year every GM knew they **** up not drafting Jordan. Bird was very talented he could pass shoot rebound I didn’t say athleticism only talent is a combination of both when it comes to basketball. Wilt who I have higher on my all time list then most is the perfect combination of both. Greg Oden couldn’t stay healthy who the hell knows what he could be he never played.

Talent is your ability to get good, not being good at something. Wilt for example, is about as athletically talented as you get. Skills, not remotely skilled. Bird clearly isn't the most talented guy. Jordan being only 6'5 is a reason he isn't one of the 10 most talented guys ever. He had to put in work. Odds are if you go by talent, you very well might find the 10 most talented guys ever didn't even make the league or were out shortly because they just didn't care.

Talent is both what your born with and what you do with that talent. Wilt and Jordan are born naturally gifted athletes now what makes them great is their minds to want to be great. Jordan was a superb athlete who jump out of the gym with hang time 2nd to none who was quick as a cat at 6’6 but it was determination killer instinct made him the best ever. Wilt had more skills then people give him credit for he is right up there with Jordan for me his only weakness was free throws. Sure there has been people out there over the years that had natural talent like the Goat Manigault who Kareem said was the most gifted basketball player he ever seen. But like many others for whatever reason they never made it

No talent has nothing to do with what you did with it. It's purely your "natural aptitude or skill." The key word there being natural.

Wilt is in the top 100 million every in terms of skill. But he's a genetic freak. Jordan certainly was a natural athlete, but it wasn't until he put the time and effort into the weight room that he was able to really push himself to that final level. Jordan's countless hours in the gym were just as critical as his talent. Talent without the effort is silly. But ranking guys on talent and then listing off clearly 10 guys who aren't the 10 most talented is just crazy.

[Edrees]

People that say Duncan had the better career are rewarding him for all the years he got carried by manu, Parker and pop. He won several of his titles as a role player. Shaq was the dominant force for all but one of his titles and he was significantly better than Duncan individually in his prime.

What do you mean by "several"? Didn't Shaq win one of his titles while being worse than any title version of Duncan?

Several is wrong, it was 1. But 2006 shaq is better than 2014 Duncan.

[70sFan]

People that say Duncan had the better career are rewarding him for all the years he got carried by manu, Parker and pop. He won several of his titles as a role player. Shaq was the dominant force for all but one of his titles and he was significantly better than Duncan individually in his prime.

What do you mean by "several"? Didn't Shaq win one of his titles while being worse than any title version of Duncan?

Several is wrong, it was 1. But 2006 shaq is better than 2014 Duncan.

I guess you can say that (I am not that sure), but that still leaves us with 4 superstar rings for Duncan vs 3 for Shaq.

[dhsilv2]

People that say Duncan had the better career are rewarding him for all the years he got carried by manu, Parker and pop. He won several of his titles as a role player. Shaq was the dominant force for all but one of his titles and he was significantly better than Duncan individually in his prime.

What do you mean by "several"? Didn't Shaq win one of his titles while being worse than any title version of Duncan?

Several is wrong, it was 1. But 2006 shaq is better than 2014 Duncan.

Why do you have 2006 Shaq over 2014 Duncan?

PER 21.3 vs 24.4
VORP 2.9 vs 2.1
WS 7.4 vs 6.2

XRAPM 3.6 (96th percentile) vs 3.9 (95th percentile)
OXRAPM 0.6 vs 2.6
DXRAPM -3.0 vs -1.3 (negative is good on DxRAPM)

Playoffs

PER 21.1 vs 19.9
BPM 3.1 vs 1.0
WS/48 .204 vs .103

Close box metrics and really similar xRAPM numbers with an obvious split for Duncan on defense and Shaq on offense. But then the playoffs numbers...Duncan stepped his game up while Shaq's numbers dropped off.

Shaq was 30.6 minutes a game and 59 total regular season. 33 minutes per game in 23 games in the playoffs.
Duncan 29.2 in 74 regular season games. 32.7 in 23 games in the playoffs.

So no real minute gap here other than Duncan played more games.

[70sFan]

Wilt for example, is about as athletically talented as you get. Skills, not remotely skilled.

That's completely baseless statement. You can't be top 25 player ever without being skilled at basketball.

[Packbuckman]

Talent is your ability to get good, not being good at something. Wilt for example, is about as athletically talented as you get. Skills, not remotely skilled. Bird clearly isn't the most talented guy. Jordan being only 6'5 is a reason he isn't one of the 10 most talented guys ever. He had to put in work. Odds are if you go by talent, you very well might find the 10 most talented guys ever didn't even make the league or were out shortly because they just didn't care.

Talent is both what your born with and what you do with that talent. Wilt and Jordan are born naturally gifted athletes now what makes them great is their minds to want to be great. Jordan was a superb athlete who jump out of the gym with hang time 2nd to none who was quick as a cat at 6’6 but it was determination killer instinct made him the best ever. Wilt had more skills then people give him credit for he is right up there with Jordan for me his only weakness was free throws. Sure there has been people out there over the years that had natural talent like the Goat Manigault who Kareem said was the most gifted basketball player he ever seen. But like many others for whatever reason they never made it

No talent has nothing to do with what you did with it. It's purely your "natural aptitude or skill." The key word there being natural.

Wilt is in the top 100 million ever in terms of skill. But he's a genetic freak. Jordan certainly was a natural athlete, but it wasn't until he put the time and effort into the weight room that he was able to really push himself to that final level. Jordan's countless hours in the gym were just as critical as his talent. Talent without the effort is silly. But ranking guys on talent and then listing off clearly 10 guys who aren't the 10 most talented is just crazy.

This is the exact definition of talent
Manifestation of the set of characteristics, aptitudes and intellectual capacity that a person has, natural or acquired through learning, when carrying out an activity successfully.