Thinking Basketball Top25 Single Year Peaks of the Millennium

[rate_]

I still think that the biggest disagreement I have with Ben is on Dirk.
For instance, I totally disagree that Wade was the best player in the '11 Finals.

Wade was the best player in the 2011 Finals at least statistically, and it isn’t even close.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I still think that the biggest disagreement I have with Ben is on Dirk.
For instance, I totally disagree that Wade was the best player in the '11 Finals.

Wade was the best player in the 2011 Finals at least statistically, and it isn’t even close.

They were played differently by the defenses, Miami was going all.out against Dirk.
Dirk was +40 for the series, while Dallas was -26 without him.
Wade was -6, the team was -8 without him.
Then there's the different impact in the 4th quarter.

The only thing Wade had over Dirk was ts%, and it's quite disappointing to see Elgee running with it.

[rate_]

Spoiler:

I still think that the biggest disagreement I have with Ben is on Dirk.
For instance, I totally disagree that Wade was the best player in the '11 Finals.

Wade was the best player in the 2011 Finals at least statistically, and it isn’t even close.

They were played differently by the defenses, Miami was going all.out against Dirk.
Dirk was +40 for the series, while Dallas was -26 without him.
Wade was -6, the team was -8 without him.
Then there's the different impact in the 4th quarter.

The only thing Wade had over Dirk was ts%, and it's quite disappointing to see Elgee running with it.

Wade was a better all around player overall: as a rebounder, passer and defender while averaging the most points among both teams on superior efficiency. Dirk did shine in the 4th quarters but that doesn't mean his performances in quarters 1-3 should be ignored. His overall TS% was still a subpar 53.7% in the series. Wade shared duties with LeBron, who was very underwhelming for his standards while Dallas supporting cast overachieved.

Wade: 32.6 PER | 1.3 WS | 26.5 PPG | 7.0 RPG | 5.2 APG | 3.0 stocks
Dirk: 21.8 PER | 0.7 WS | 26.0 PPG | 9.7 RPG | 2.0 APG | 1.3 stocks

Elgee was completely correct in his decision that Wade was the best player in the series and was also the best player in the 2006 Finals, so this performance was not a fluke.

[jowglenn]

Steph's 2015-2016 season. Period. End stop. .50/.45/.90 with 402 3PM (over two thirds of them from 25+ feet) and 30 points a night. The man literally broke both NBA 2K and the actual game itself.

I have to agree - that was the most electrifying season of basketball any player has produced in this millennium. Watching Curry felt like you were watching a guy with a video game cheat code. It made you wonder if maybe we really did live in the Matrix and this guy was Neo.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Spoiler:

Wade was the best player in the 2011 Finals at least statistically, and it isn’t even close.

They were played differently by the defenses, Miami was going all.out against Dirk.
Dirk was +40 for the series, while Dallas was -26 without him.
Wade was -6, the team was -8 without him.
Then there's the different impact in the 4th quarter.

The only thing Wade had over Dirk was ts%, and it's quite disappointing to see Elgee running with it.

Wade was a better all around player overall: as a rebounder, passer and defender while averaging the most points among both teams on superior efficiency. Dirk did shine in the 4th quarters but that doesn't mean his performances in quarters 1-3 should be ignored. His overall TS% was still a subpar 53.7% in the series. Wade shared duties with LeBron, who was very underwhelming for his standards while Dallas supporting cast overachieved.

Wade: 32.6 PER | 1.3 WS | 26.5 PPG | 7.0 RPG | 5.2 APG | 3.0 stocks
Dirk: 21.8 PER | 0.7 WS | 26.0 PPG | 9.7 RPG | 2.0 APG | 1.3 stocks

Elgee was completely correct in his decision that Wade was the best player in the series and was also the best player in the 2006 Finals, so this performance was not a fluke.

My issue is that Elgee sometimes goes on a tangent explaining how the boxscore is not catching the full impact. How Curry in the finals was more important than Durant because of the gravity and the way the defense was selling out to defend it. Even makes a video on how Curry si impacting the offense even when he's not making his shots.
Then we have a case of Dirk missing more shots than usual (mostly in Game 6, the only one he had a negative on/off) while being the engine of the offense and the Heat going all in to stop him, giving the likes of Terry, Marion, Chandler and Barea the space to operate, and Kidd the possibility to find them.
At the same time, the Mavs are prioritizing guarding LeBron, and that allows Wade to go 1v1.
And this is captured by on/off (that is a statistic, fwiw), with the Mavs falling apart without Dirk, while the Heat were almost at the same level without Wade.

Instead I have to read about PER and WS for a single series... and hear Elgee all the time bloating about how *GREAT* Chandler, Kidd and Marion were.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Steph's 2015-2016 season. Period. End stop. .50/.45/.90 with 402 3PM (over two thirds of them from 25+ feet) and 30 points a night. The man literally broke both NBA 2K and the actual game itself.

I have to agree - that was the most electrifying season of basketball any player has produced in this millennium. Watching Curry felt like you were watching a guy with a video game cheat code. It made you wonder if maybe we really did live in the Matrix and this guy was Neo.

I have since been thing that those crazy numbers happened because the League just was not ready. I saw some highlights, recently, and I was surprised to see how they were ofter going under the screen or just not going all out to help him. I think the best Curry was a few years later, when he became stronger. But I am not sure how to weight the surprise factor into a rank like this.

[picc]

They were played differently by the defenses, Miami was going all.out against Dirk.
Dirk was +40 for the series, while Dallas was -26 without him.
Wade was -6, the team was -8 without him.
Then there's the different impact in the 4th quarter.

The only thing Wade had over Dirk was ts%, and it's quite disappointing to see Elgee running with it.

Wade was a better all around player overall: as a rebounder, passer and defender while averaging the most points among both teams on superior efficiency. Dirk did shine in the 4th quarters but that doesn't mean his performances in quarters 1-3 should be ignored. His overall TS% was still a subpar 53.7% in the series. Wade shared duties with LeBron, who was very underwhelming for his standards while Dallas supporting cast overachieved.

Wade: 32.6 PER | 1.3 WS | 26.5 PPG | 7.0 RPG | 5.2 APG | 3.0 stocks
Dirk: 21.8 PER | 0.7 WS | 26.0 PPG | 9.7 RPG | 2.0 APG | 1.3 stocks

Elgee was completely correct in his decision that Wade was the best player in the series and was also the best player in the 2006 Finals, so this performance was not a fluke.

My issue is that Elgee sometimes goes on a tangent explaining how the boxscore is not catching the full impact. How Curry in the finals was more important than Durant because of the gravity and the way the defense was selling out to defend it. Even makes a video on how Curry si impacting the offense even when he's not making his shots.
Then we have a case of Dirk missing more shots than usual (mostly in Game 6, the only one he had a negative on/off) while being the engine of the offense and the Heat going all in to stop him, giving the likes of Terry, Marion, Chandler and Barea the space to operate, and Kidd the possibility to find them.
At the same time, the Mavs are prioritizing guarding LeBron, and that allows Wade to go 1v1.
And this is captured by on/off (that is a statistic, fwiw), with the Mavs falling apart without Dirk, while the Heat were almost at the same level without Wade.

Instead I have to read about PER and WS for a single series... and hear Elgee all the time bloating about how *GREAT* Chandler, Kidd and Marion were.

Its funny cause I was just watching the '11 finals and it didn't take more than a couple games to realize this talking point doesn't have legs.

- Wade was torching the Mavs so bad they switched Marion onto him from Lebron (and still couldn't stop him). Difficult to argue the Mavs were so unbothered by Wade when they deliberately switched their best defender to him from the guy they supposedly were obsessed with stopping, and were double teaming him in the post when other players were on him

- Lebron was also going one on one with his defender, until he drove. But if he wanted to, he could have shot single coverage jumpers over Kidd, Stevenson, and Barea all day. I'm not saying they didn't shade toward him with the defense, they did. But no more than they did Wade once he started to torch him. Wade was just slicker, faster, and smarter with his offensive attack strategies than Lebron was

- Wade scored a lot on off-ball cuts using his speed and athleticism, and offensive rebounding using his athleticism. Things that make it harder for a defense to gameplan for than just getting the ball and iso'ing. Another reason his offensive attack was smarter than Lebron's, who really wasn't doing much off the ball. Either lazy or stage frightened

- Wade's defense was an actual factor in the series, while Dirk was invisible on that end for the most part. He was significantly better on defense than Dirk was, even at the rim despite giving up 5 inches

- Dirk was indeed pulling his man out and drawing doubles that led to open shots, which you have to give credit to. But he just wasn't playing well outside of that. Not scoring well. Not shooting well. Turning the ball over. Some awesome clutchness too, for sure. But at some point you have to stop using gravity as a catch-all excuse for subpar play, which is an argument I've made about Curry in quite a few series as well. Like sure, in the 2015 finals his gravity was a factor, but he was also playing like dog **** in many other facets, including his decision making, which is why someone else could even be considered for MVP the first place. It had to happen somehow, right? Dirk was clearly the most valuable Mav or non-Wade Heat player in the series, but Wade was simply much more impressive on both ends -- full stop. Even moreso than I remembered before rewatching.

More '11 Finals notes:

- Jason Kidd was freaking awesome on defense this series. Unbelievable. I've thought he was the best defensive point ever for a while (at least of the star level players), but his offense even in his prime was so underwhelming I didn't see him as anywhere near the Nash's and CP3's. And now I'm wondering how much his possession to possession defensive impact makes up the gap. While Nash or Paul is still the much better option as the best player on your team, I think there's a real argument for preferring Kidd on teams that already have an offensive stud who can put points on the board

- Mario Chalmers could play. The '11 Heat are maligned for their lack of depth a lot, and rightfully compared to later incarnations. But Chalmers was a baller and played at an above average PG level at least for this series. It helped mitigate some of Lebron's disaster class

- Chris Bosh was also pulling his man out of the paint. Which I don't think he started getting credit for until the following years

[picc]

This pod doesn't think Wade peaked higher Offensively than Kobe, it's the notable defensive value of why Wade peaked higher. Kobe defensively was a slight positive while Wade was a strong positive.

A team from 2006-2009 with Wade quarterbacking an Offense isn't likely to have an elite Offensive output (+9 rOrtg or +10 rOrtg) with the philosophical Offensive roster constructions of the times. Wade's Offensive game doesn't really function that well with other high-end Offensive talent since he's 6'4" and can't really shoot. Your-Turn/My-Turn Offense doesn't scale up that impressively.

I disagree with Wade’s game not coexisting well with other elite talent. His off-ball cutting is very underrated.

Wade has some on-ball advantages in that he's a much more willing playmaker than Kobe, and his athleticism is on another level. Prime Wade could instantly crack a defense at will, suck in help, and make really solid passing reads. Kobe never threatened the rim quite like that, so he didn't have access to quite the same level of on-ball playmaking. Kobe played much of his career in a system that helped maximize his off-ball value while still letting him cook whenever he felt like it. Prime Wade was often on meh teams, being tasked with making things happen.

This is all true. However despite Wade being more willing to pass and better able to penetrate the defense, his effect on teammate's shot quality isn't better simply because Kobe had significantly more gravity on the perimeter. Even if he wanted to shoot, teams would double him so much guys just got open. At his peak he was being double teamed even off the ball, and straight up triple teamed, which I don't believe Wade ever saw. Both guys have their playmaking advantages (Wade's unselfishness and Kobe's gravity) at the end of the day.

[DCasey91]

I've watched the finals a couple times. Wade was on one legimately Mavs didn't have a good match up as older Kidd was rotating on Bron, even Peak Kidd would have his hands full

But Dirk was spectacular in final quarters for the most part and Wade did have a uncharacteristic blunder late on game that costed Miami. On consistent performance I go to Wade but yeah Dirk delivered big time when it mattered. Every huge shot it was Dirk

In reality Miami should have taken care of Terry for whatever reason it was pretty loose checking and shooters can light you up with that freedom.

[picc]

Honestly this list is kinda disrespectful to Russell Westbrook lol. like he was very dominant between 2014 and 2017. I don't think Tatum or Kidd, for instance, ever matched that level of clutchness and floor-raising and postseason effectiveness.

I have Westbrook in the mid-teens of my 00's top 25 peak list. Its unfortunate that his post-prime shortcomings have colored the overall view of him, when the board was very much in agreement on his '14-'17 incarnations being among the best peaks in NBA history, at the time they were happening.

Westbrook was the quarterback of number one offenses, teams with SRS ratings better than any Nash squad, led multiple playoff upsets of higher seeds, and did so with basically one other great player, who he outplayed every postseason, and the rest of the team being different levels of trash with zero shooting. Seriously, how much PT are Kendrick Perkins and Andre Roberson and Thabo Sefolosha getting nowadays? And we stopped valuing the Dion Waiters' and Kevin Martins' one-way/one-dimension impact a long time ago. That those Thunder squads were as good as they were is truly remarkable. WB was averaging double digit assists on teams that were a point guard's nightmare. He was a playmaking virtuoso.

Hit or miss defensively depending on the team. Against motion offenses like the Warriors, he was a total disaster. But against offenses with helio or ball dominant guards, his stopping ability was incredibly impressive and helped OKC win a number of games.

Shot too much, and relatively low IQ compared to other great players, but he had advantages over them as well and got as far or further in the playoffs than many players ranked over him -- players with their own shortcomings and playoff failings that aren't nearly as pigeonholed.

[cupcakesnake]

I disagree with Wade’s game not coexisting well with other elite talent. His off-ball cutting is very underrated.

Wade has some on-ball advantages in that he's a much more willing playmaker than Kobe, and his athleticism is on another level. Prime Wade could instantly crack a defense at will, suck in help, and make really solid passing reads. Kobe never threatened the rim quite like that, so he didn't have access to quite the same level of on-ball playmaking. Kobe played much of his career in a system that helped maximize his off-ball value while still letting him cook whenever he felt like it. Prime Wade was often on meh teams, being tasked with making things happen.

This is all true. However despite Wade being more willing to pass and better able to penetrate the defense, his effect on teammate's shot quality isn't better simply because Kobe had significantly more gravity on the perimeter. Even if he wanted to shoot, teams would double him so much guys just got open. At his peak he was being double teamed even off the ball, and straight up triple teamed, which I don't believe Wade ever saw. Both guys have their playmaking advantages (Wade's unselfishness and Kobe's gravity) at the end of the day.

No disagreement here. I remember Kobe's gravity well, even if we weren't using that word yet. Prime Kobe spooked defenses into all kinds of panic with every cut. He was like Reggie Miller with less range (but way greater physicality and iso/post game). Kobe's off-ball game is my favorite thing about him.

I'm not actually sure how to measure/compare these things though. Wade's gravity from collapsing the defense on drives vs. Kobe's gravity running into open space. I personally prefer Wade's 1-year prime in 2006 or 2009, but with Kobe we way better 3-year and 5-year stretches. I don't begrudge anyone preferring Kobe's one-year prime though.

[picc]

Wade has some on-ball advantages in that he's a much more willing playmaker than Kobe, and his athleticism is on another level. Prime Wade could instantly crack a defense at will, suck in help, and make really solid passing reads. Kobe never threatened the rim quite like that, so he didn't have access to quite the same level of on-ball playmaking. Kobe played much of his career in a system that helped maximize his off-ball value while still letting him cook whenever he felt like it. Prime Wade was often on meh teams, being tasked with making things happen.

This is all true. However despite Wade being more willing to pass and better able to penetrate the defense, his effect on teammate's shot quality isn't better simply because Kobe had significantly more gravity on the perimeter. Even if he wanted to shoot, teams would double him so much guys just got open. At his peak he was being double teamed even off the ball, and straight up triple teamed, which I don't believe Wade ever saw. Both guys have their playmaking advantages (Wade's unselfishness and Kobe's gravity) at the end of the day.

No disagreement here. I remember Kobe's gravity well, even if we weren't using that word yet. Prime Kobe spooked defenses into all kinds of panic with every cut. He was like Reggie Miller with less range (but way greater physicality and iso/post game). Kobe's off-ball game is my favorite thing about him.

I'm not actually sure how to measure/compare these things though. Wade's gravity from collapsing the defense on drives vs. Kobe's gravity running into open space. I personally prefer Wade's 1-year prime in 2006 or 2009, but with Kobe we way better 3-year and 5-year stretches. I don't begrudge anyone preferring Kobe's one-year prime though.

Yeah, I'm of the same opinion. Whoever you prefer for whatever reason, you're probably right. Generally equal impact players in my estimation and I don't think you're getting any further in the playoffs with one over the other.

Even their weaknesses offset in the playoffs. Wade was such a gamer that he could hit whatever shot, from whatever range, if he needed to. No surprise at all to see him drain threes in the playoffs if that's whats called for. Conversely, Kobe's lazy defense was a regular season phenomena and he was consistently a plus for us in the playoffs, especially as a microwave stopper for hot players. Like Chauncey Billups torching us in 2009 and Kobe totally erasing him from the game in the 2nd half.

You can't capture these things in overall +/- stats which is why basketball isn't meant to be analyzed from a boxscore.

Love both of those players and would be happy with either.

[Biff]

This guy did a similar list:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/1mivcp0/combining_math_film_study_3_the_greatest_peaks_of/

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Wade was a better all around player overall: as a rebounder, passer and defender while averaging the most points among both teams on superior efficiency. Dirk did shine in the 4th quarters but that doesn't mean his performances in quarters 1-3 should be ignored. His overall TS% was still a subpar 53.7% in the series. Wade shared duties with LeBron, who was very underwhelming for his standards while Dallas supporting cast overachieved.

Wade: 32.6 PER | 1.3 WS | 26.5 PPG | 7.0 RPG | 5.2 APG | 3.0 stocks
Dirk: 21.8 PER | 0.7 WS | 26.0 PPG | 9.7 RPG | 2.0 APG | 1.3 stocks

Elgee was completely correct in his decision that Wade was the best player in the series and was also the best player in the 2006 Finals, so this performance was not a fluke.

My issue is that Elgee sometimes goes on a tangent explaining how the boxscore is not catching the full impact. How Curry in the finals was more important than Durant because of the gravity and the way the defense was selling out to defend it. Even makes a video on how Curry si impacting the offense even when he's not making his shots.
Then we have a case of Dirk missing more shots than usual (mostly in Game 6, the only one he had a negative on/off) while being the engine of the offense and the Heat going all in to stop him, giving the likes of Terry, Marion, Chandler and Barea the space to operate, and Kidd the possibility to find them.
At the same time, the Mavs are prioritizing guarding LeBron, and that allows Wade to go 1v1.
And this is captured by on/off (that is a statistic, fwiw), with the Mavs falling apart without Dirk, while the Heat were almost at the same level without Wade.

Instead I have to read about PER and WS for a single series... and hear Elgee all the time bloating about how *GREAT* Chandler, Kidd and Marion were.

Its funny cause I was just watching the '11 finals and it didn't take more than a couple games to realize this talking point doesn't have legs.

- Wade was torching the Mavs so bad they switched Marion onto him from Lebron (and still couldn't stop him). Difficult to argue the Mavs were so unbothered by Wade when they deliberately switched their best defender to him from the guy they supposedly were obsessed with stopping, and were double teaming him in the post when other players were on him

- Lebron was also going one on one with his defender, until he drove. But if he wanted to, he could have shot single coverage jumpers over Kidd, Stevenson, and Barea all day. I'm not saying they didn't shade toward him with the defense, they did. But no more than they did Wade once he started to torch him. Wade was just slicker, faster, and smarter with his offensive attack strategies than Lebron was

- Wade scored a lot on off-ball cuts using his speed and athleticism, and offensive rebounding using his athleticism. Things that make it harder for a defense to gameplan for than just getting the ball and iso'ing. Another reason his offensive attack was smarter than Lebron's, who really wasn't doing much off the ball. Either lazy or stage frightened

- Wade's defense was an actual factor in the series, while Dirk was invisible on that end for the most part. He was significantly better on defense than Dirk was, even at the rim despite giving up 5 inches

- Dirk was indeed pulling his man out and drawing doubles that led to open shots, which you have to give credit to. But he just wasn't playing well outside of that. Not scoring well. Not shooting well. Turning the ball over. Some awesome clutchness too, for sure. But at some point you have to stop using gravity as a catch-all excuse for subpar play, which is an argument I've made about Curry in quite a few series as well. Like sure, in the 2015 finals his gravity was a factor, but he was also playing like dog **** in many other facets, including his decision making, which is why someone else could even be considered for MVP the first place. It had to happen somehow, right? Dirk was clearly the most valuable Mav or non-Wade Heat player in the series, but Wade was simply much more impressive on both ends -- full stop. Even moreso than I remembered before rewatching.

More '11 Finals notes:

- Jason Kidd was freaking awesome on defense this series. Unbelievable. I've thought he was the best defensive point ever for a while (at least of the star level players), but his offense even in his prime was so underwhelming I didn't see him as anywhere near the Nash's and CP3's. And now I'm wondering how much his possession to possession defensive impact makes up the gap. While Nash or Paul is still the much better option as the best player on your team, I think there's a real argument for preferring Kidd on teams that already have an offensive stud who can put points on the board

- Mario Chalmers could play. The '11 Heat are maligned for their lack of depth a lot, and rightfully compared to later incarnations. But Chalmers was a baller and played at an above average PG level at least for this series. It helped mitigate some of Lebron's disaster class

- Chris Bosh was also pulling his man out of the paint. Which I don't think he started getting credit for until the following years

Last time I rewatched was during covid, I will have a look at it.
but there's a key stat that we should keep in mind, that at least makes it plausible that the "gravity stuff" is not all BS.
Dirk on: 242 min. +40
Dirk off: 38 min, -26
Wade on: 234 min, -6
Wade off: 46 min, -8

And that was consistent with Dirk's number in RS and PO

[FrodoBaggins]

New ep on Jokic, Duncan, KG.

[rate_]

[picc]

Interesting info on KG's teams and their specific failings. Lot of intricate context applied and it was interesting the point about how much team building freedom he affords.

My vantage on Duncan and Jokic hasn't changed but I think I'm higher on KG now than I was before. Though I'd be interested to see the same meticulous contextual lens applied to everyone else and what that would reveal. I'm sure there was extra motivation to dig deeper given some favoritism.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I really have a hard time having Garnett over Jokic.

[Johnny Tomala]

Where I can find his list?

[Doctor MJ]

Interesting info on KG's teams and their specific failings. Lot of intricate context applied and it was interesting the point about how much team building freedom he affords.

My vantage on Duncan and Jokic hasn't changed but I think I'm higher on KG now than I was before. Though I'd be interested to see the same meticulous contextual lens applied to everyone else and what that would reveal. I'm sure there was extra motivation to dig deeper given some favoritism.

Ben, like myself, didn’t start out by having unusually high evaluations of KG, let alone based on homerism.

We got there gradually by listening to the good arguments from others and then digging deeper to answer the questions we had.


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