Fisher: Raptors are still shopping RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley

[ConSarnit]

I don't disagree with you (& I really like RJ). One of my big concerns is that this team lacks scoring talent. Maybe you eventually upgrade RJ, but simply losing him I don't think helps. RJ might not be perfect, but he provides 2nd or 3rd scorer type production. Derozan wasn't perfect as a 1st option either, but we won a lot of games with him there.

Either way......I am curious to see how he looks with BI in the lineup.

I really like Ochai & think that competent 3+D players are a must if you are trying to win. We'll see if he out-prices himself as a Raptor.

Gradey is a guy who I think could be traded. He doesn't really fit this new defensive identity & we have Walter needing minutes. This is a big year for Gradey. He needs to take a big leap. If he doesn't, he'll continue to be a weak link on any lineup that he plays with. It was tough to watch last season.

We still have to play wait and see with RJ. I think 2 things need to happen before we can move off of him (and not hurt the team). Agbaji needs to prove his shooting wasn’t a fluke. If he can he could be a reasonable starting 3+D sg. We’d lose some offensive creation but we’d gain spacing and defense so it could be a wash compared to starting RJ. We’d also need one of Dick/Walter to pick up the scoring slack on the bench. If Walter (a scorer in college) could scale his scoring as a solid bench option that could provide some cover for losing RJ. Both those things need to happen before we can move on from RJ.

Now, if we could wave a magic wand and move RJ for some outcome that returns a bench scorer and quality bench big (basically splitting RJ’s $27m into 2 solid bench guys) that would really round out the roster. But that’s probably not possible in one swoop.

The reason I think they have to hold onto RJ is BI and Scottie aren't strong enough on their own as shot creators. They need a 3rd dynamic guy. Right now the only one capable is RJ.

In my mind, the only one capable of taking RJ's place from a dynamic scorer perspective is Gradey, but Gradey would have to take a massive leap this season. It's possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I do think that Gradey could absorb more from BI than anyone else on the team. Who knows maybe BI will influence him to take that next step.

What about IQ? He’s a more efficient scorer than RJ. RJ beats him in raw PPG but that’s because RJ takes more shots. Per36 both guys are putting up similar numbers (RJ scoring slightly more, IQ creating more assists).

I don’t think IQ is necessarily a true PG but he can create at least as good as RJ can. He scores in different ways but he can still put up similar points and assists while being more efficient.

Last season per36:

IQ: 22/8 on 57% TS

RJ: 24/6 on 55% TS

IQ is perfectly acceptable as a secondary creator. You don’t want him running your offense full time but you don’t want RJ doing that either.

[VanWest82]

The luxury of having IQ/RJ/BI/SB in the SL is you don’t have to go traditional NBA pecking order in terms of creation, and can instead be match up dependent and rely on good ball movement given all four of those guys can both create for themselves and others at a reasonably high level.

Darko’s system is also perfectly designed to play this way. It might take us a min to figure things out because it’s not going to look like we have an identity, but the identity is our ability to go to different guys on different nights and still get quality play making, which should make us much harder to guard in the long run.

[ConSarnit]

The luxury of having IQ/RJ/BI/SB in the SL is you don’t have to go traditional NBA pecking order in terms of creation, and can instead be match up dependent and rely on good ball movement given all four of those guys can both create for themselves and others at a reasonably high level.

Darko’s system is also perfectly designed to play this way. It might take us a min to figure things out because it’s not going to look like we have an identity, but the identity is our ability to go to different guys on different nights and still get quality play making, which should make us much harder to guard in the long run.

I disagree that Darko’s system is perfect for us. What modern ball movement heavy teams have found success while getting zero spacing from the 4/5 and feature 1 guy (IQ) who is getting 3pt looks from off-ball screens? The only team who has been able to do it successfully while lacking well rounded shooting is the Warriors who have a cheat code in Curry.

If anything this team is better suited to play Nurse-ball than the actual Nurse ball teams. Hunting mis-matches because you have 4 guys who can create their own shot (ymmv on Barnes). Play a little more iso ball out of mismatches. Run more pnr. You don’t need good passing to hunt mismatches. Someone is going to be guarded by a weak defender as the default. Attack that in a pnr or iso using our multiple ball handlers.

Ball movement has not been shown to work with 2 (or maybe even 3 with RJ) bad/questionable shooters in the lineup. I don’t think an iso system would yield great results but I don’t think we have the right starter mix to pull off a successful ball movement system either.

[ArthurVandelay]

Going to be fun to keep an eye on Sacramento this year. If they poop the bed, are they going to be looking to pay Keegan Murray to keep that core together? Next summer RFA won’t be like this year as teams will have cap space.

RJ may end up in Sacramento yet.

[VanWest82]

The luxury of having IQ/RJ/BI/SB in the SL is you don’t have to go traditional NBA pecking order in terms of creation, and can instead be match up dependent and rely on good ball movement given all four of those guys can both create for themselves and others at a reasonably high level.

Darko’s system is also perfectly designed to play this way. It might take us a min to figure things out because it’s not going to look like we have an identity, but the identity is our ability to go to different guys on different nights and still get quality play making, which should make us much harder to guard in the long run.

I disagree that Darko’s system is perfect for us. What modern ball movement heavy teams have found success while getting zero spacing from the 4/5 and feature 1 guy (IQ) who is getting 3pt looks from off-ball screens? The only team who has been able to do it successfully while lacking well rounded shooting is the Warriors who have a cheat code in Curry.

If anything this team is better suited to play Nurse-ball than the actual Nurse ball teams. Hunting mis-matches because you have 4 guys who can create their own shot (ymmv on Barnes). Play a little more iso ball out of mismatches. Run more pnr. You don’t need good passing to hunt mismatches. Someone is going to be guarded by a weak defender as the default. Attack that in a pnr or iso using our multiple ball handlers.

Ball movement has not been shown to work with 2 (or maybe even 3 with RJ) bad/questionable shooters in the lineup. I don’t think an iso system would yield great results but I don’t think we have the right starter mix to pull off a successful ball movement system either.

-I disagree that Scottie provides zero spacing. Even if you think he's not a good shooter, the fact is teams guard him out there.
-disagree that we only have one guy getting 3pt looks off ball screens. RJ is effective relocating for shots and Ingram is too. Obv my comment was directed at our SL guys, but all three of our rookie contract bench wings (Ochai/Gradey/JKW) are movement shooters.
-disagree that ball movement is somehow going to prohibit hunting mismatches; if anything, my point of having different guys create on different nights leads into drawing doubles and quick ball movement as we force defenses to scramble/recover. We're essentially saying the same thing here.
-RJ's been 36-37% 3FG% on C&S the last two years. If anything, he's consistent on volume, not great but consistent.
-disagree about the lack of player personnel to run that system. Poeltl is an ideal fit because he's so good at creating space for others and making quick and efficient reads with the ball. All four of IQ, RJ, BI, and Scottie have shown an ability to play with or without the ball. None of them are stand around guys. We thought RJ might've been that guy based on NY but he's proven to be multi-dimensional like the other guys.
-We do not have personnel to run iso-ball offense. Ingram is the only guy on the team who theoretically fits that.

This is exactly the kind of group you look for to run Darko's ball movement / everyone eats offense with so many guys who can shoot, pass, dribble, make quick decisions on the move, and who don't just stand around off ball.

[Rapsalot]

If Jak and IQ stay healthy for 70+ games and playoffs keeping RJ was a good move. If not more could have been done in offseason to shore up PG and C depth. More could have been done at draft too but added 2 wings vs moving a small wing and getting a PG, C and big wing.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Having a 39% ATB 3pt shooter is a far bigger asset than having a 42% corner 3pt shooter.

ATB 3pt shooting is the most valuable shooting in the league. It allows you put lesser shooters (like RJ) in the corner where they are still threats. Having a shooter who you can put anywhere on the floor adds value even if the made fg are the same.

You have the theory right, but the scale is not recognized and so I think you are wrong. Volume ATB shooting is going to create spacing. Low volume shooters like Ochai are going to be left. The % difference just isn't enough. Ochai's shooting doesn't really threaten to change a game.

but it’ll do more than RJ is the entire conversation

No. A defender isn't guarding Agbaji tighter because he makes one ATB three every couple of games, or whatever it is. Teams aren't giving up inches for a couple of percentage points.

[MEDIC]

We still have to play wait and see with RJ. I think 2 things need to happen before we can move off of him (and not hurt the team). Agbaji needs to prove his shooting wasn’t a fluke. If he can he could be a reasonable starting 3+D sg. We’d lose some offensive creation but we’d gain spacing and defense so it could be a wash compared to starting RJ. We’d also need one of Dick/Walter to pick up the scoring slack on the bench. If Walter (a scorer in college) could scale his scoring as a solid bench option that could provide some cover for losing RJ. Both those things need to happen before we can move on from RJ.

Now, if we could wave a magic wand and move RJ for some outcome that returns a bench scorer and quality bench big (basically splitting RJ’s $27m into 2 solid bench guys) that would really round out the roster. But that’s probably not possible in one swoop.

The reason I think they have to hold onto RJ is BI and Scottie aren't strong enough on their own as shot creators. They need a 3rd dynamic guy. Right now the only one capable is RJ.

In my mind, the only one capable of taking RJ's place from a dynamic scorer perspective is Gradey, but Gradey would have to take a massive leap this season. It's possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I do think that Gradey could absorb more from BI than anyone else on the team. Who knows maybe BI will influence him to take that next step.

What about IQ? He’s a more efficient scorer than RJ. RJ beats him in raw PPG but that’s because RJ takes more shots. Per36 both guys are putting up similar numbers (RJ scoring slightly more, IQ creating more assists).

I don’t think IQ is necessarily a true PG but he can create at least as good as RJ can. He scores in different ways but he can still put up similar points and assists while being more efficient.

Last season per36:

IQ: 22/8 on 57% TS

RJ: 24/6 on 55% TS

IQ is perfectly acceptable as a secondary creator. You don’t want him running your offense full time but you don’t want RJ doing that either.

Yeah. I was thinking about IQ. So far he hasn't shown me the dynamic on ball scoring that I had hoped to see. Maybe this year he brings it. He's not big or physical, doesn't have great length, doesn't have a great first step, seems to avoid contact. Kyle could at least use his physicality to find ways to score in the paint & he was a much better defender & facilitator than IQ.

I am super curious to see how he shows up this season.

[YogurtProducer]

You have the theory right, but the scale is not recognized and so I think you are wrong. Volume ATB shooting is going to create spacing. Low volume shooters like Ochai are going to be left. The % difference just isn't enough. Ochai's shooting doesn't really threaten to change a game.

but it’ll do more than RJ is the entire conversation

No. A defender isn't guarding Agbaji tighter because he makes one ATB three every couple of games, or whatever it is. Teams aren't giving up inches for a couple of percentage points.

That is EXACTLY what defenses do

6% isn’t a “couple of percentage points”. That’s the difference between below average and upper echelon.

[dTox]

Going to be fun to keep an eye on Sacramento this year. If they poop the bed, are they going to be looking to pay Keegan Murray to keep that core together? Next summer RFA won’t be like this year as teams will have cap space.

RJ may end up in Sacramento yet.

RJ is exactly the type of player Vivek would go after, I'm sold.

[mademan]

but it’ll do more than RJ is the entire conversation

No. A defender isn't guarding Agbaji tighter because he makes one ATB three every couple of games, or whatever it is. Teams aren't giving up inches for a couple of percentage points.

That is EXACTLY what defenses do

6% isn’t a “couple of percentage points”. That’s the difference between below average and upper echelon.

+1. And it's not just about playing tight, its about how they close out too. Nobody is closing out hard on RJ while they will if Ochai is open, which creates spacing when you attack the closeout.

[ATLTimekeeper]

but it’ll do more than RJ is the entire conversation

No. A defender isn't guarding Agbaji tighter because he makes one ATB three every couple of games, or whatever it is. Teams aren't giving up inches for a couple of percentage points.

That is EXACTLY what defenses do

6% isn’t a “couple of percentage points”. That’s the difference between below average and upper echelon.

No, because volume is context on a scouting report. Do you want to try and convince me that Ochai Agbaji gets guarded tighter ATB than Gradey Dick because he shoots a higher % from there? Is Matysse Thybulle (45%) getting more respect than Jayson Tatum (33%)? Teams apply attention based on the threat to impact a game. Volume matters. What you can do with the ball ATB matters.

[YogurtProducer]

No. A defender isn't guarding Agbaji tighter because he makes one ATB three every couple of games, or whatever it is. Teams aren't giving up inches for a couple of percentage points.

That is EXACTLY what defenses do

6% isn’t a “couple of percentage points”. That’s the difference between below average and upper echelon.

No, because volume is context on a scouting report. Do you want to try and convince me that Ochai Agbaji gets guarded tighter ATB than Gradey Dick because he shoots a higher % from there? Is Matysse Thybulle (45%) getting more respect than Jayson Tatum (33%)? Teams apply attention based on the threat to impact a game. Volume matters. What you can do with the ball ATB matters.

But RJ doesn’t have the volume argument either man

Ochai shoots a better % on similar volume. He is a better shooter and will get guarded closer.

Really not an argument, just the truth.

[HiJiNX]

The luxury of having IQ/RJ/BI/SB in the SL is you don’t have to go traditional NBA pecking order in terms of creation, and can instead be match up dependent and rely on good ball movement given all four of those guys can both create for themselves and others at a reasonably high level.

Darko’s system is also perfectly designed to play this way. It might take us a min to figure things out because it’s not going to look like we have an identity, but the identity is our ability to go to different guys on different nights and still get quality play making, which should make us much harder to guard in the long run.

I disagree that Darko’s system is perfect for us. What modern ball movement heavy teams have found success while getting zero spacing from the 4/5 and feature 1 guy (IQ) who is getting 3pt looks from off-ball screens? The only team who has been able to do it successfully while lacking well rounded shooting is the Warriors who have a cheat code in Curry.

If anything this team is better suited to play Nurse-ball than the actual Nurse ball teams. Hunting mis-matches because you have 4 guys who can create their own shot (ymmv on Barnes). Play a little more iso ball out of mismatches. Run more pnr. You don’t need good passing to hunt mismatches. Someone is going to be guarded by a weak defender as the default. Attack that in a pnr or iso using our multiple ball handlers.

Ball movement has not been shown to work with 2 (or maybe even 3 with RJ) bad/questionable shooters in the lineup. I don’t think an iso system would yield great results but I don’t think we have the right starter mix to pull off a successful ball movement system either.

I think the issue with this is we have very few iso players as well. What we do have are a bunch of guys who can pass, which fits Darko’s vision. Truthfully, when IQ and Poeltl have been healthy our offence has looked a lot better from the eye test. The problem of course is that IQ has not been very durable.

[ATLTimekeeper]

That is EXACTLY what defenses do

6% isn’t a “couple of percentage points”. That’s the difference between below average and upper echelon.

No, because volume is context on a scouting report. Do you want to try and convince me that Ochai Agbaji gets guarded tighter ATB than Gradey Dick because he shoots a higher % from there? Is Matysse Thybulle (45%) getting more respect than Jayson Tatum (33%)? Teams apply attention based on the threat to impact a game. Volume matters. What you can do with the ball ATB matters.

But RJ doesn’t have the volume argument either man

Ochai shoots a better % on similar volume. He is a better shooter and will get guarded closer.

Really not an argument, just the truth.

We're just talking ATB, where took 4 3PAs. Agbaji took 1.7. Adjusted it's double the attempts. Again, use my Gradey comparison if you want to try and make this argument as purely math.

[CPT]

Either Agbaji provides spacing or he’s open for shots he can make at an efficient rate.

Both of those things seem good to me.

What am I missing here?

[ATLTimekeeper]

Either Agbaji provides spacing or he’s open for shots he can make at an efficient rate.

Both of those things seem good to me.

What am I missing here?

The argument is whether he provides better spacing than RJ.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

I apologize to all those who come to get pumped up for the season and have to see thoughts on perceived shortcomings or concerns. I know that at the end of the day its just sports and not that serious. Speaking for myself though, its not coming from a place of trying to spoil your day or time on here, but perhaps we just want different things from the site and engagement. For me, I always approached this board as if we're all a bunch of arm chair GM's. Things like the trade machine and stuff all support the idea of this site for that. I come here to talk about what Id like to see the GM do, what I think they should do. I don't really care if the players and coaches we have are popular on line and If they aren't projecting to help us achieve our goals, I'd rather not have them on the team. In that respect, I hope the actual front office operates that way, Not that they agree with my thoughts( I want them to be able to do much better, I'm just some dude who makes his money doing other things, they make their money doing this) but I would not want them sitting around cherry picking stats that are just MJ and Scottie are the only two players with"....." or coming up with reasons why a not complete roster might work. I want them constantly looking at where they're weak, vulnerable, and how they get better.

This is a weird season. We tanked yet we're super invested into the tank roster with just BI added to it, and don't have a real path for meaningful playing time for the players we drafted, nor are we in a good position to be able to extend of sign any of them, for 2- 3years. Like with Ochai this year. We traded a 1st for him. I'm excited to have bball to watch but If Im honest I don't see a top 6 team this season and I see using trending down as our place in the east is based on the injuries to BOS and Indy. I see no true PG, no front court depth, few guys who can shoot and defend. And the approach that the Summer league guys set the tone, makes little sense - as the guys who actually will play more don't play that way. I also think we've overpaing people thinking since the cap goes up the percentage goes down, but with the new CBA there's a new layer of austerity where teams know they'll need to max one or two main guys and have all the rest on value deals. Its hard to compete with wasted money on your books anymore. So how do we get off the guys we've already committed to. I can't help that these are the questions I have leading into the season and I'm sorry if it makes people sad to see it discussed. I'd love to chat about it here, I think that's what this place is for. Im at an age now where I no longer want to waste any time flamewarring or being as **** to people on here, I'd love to chat with people who approach it in the same way, Whether you agree with may take or not. But I, personally don't see the point of the discussion forum that isn't doing that. To me to not criticize is to not care.

As to why this is a weird season, its the firing of Masai. Are we still committed to the players and direction (financially we are, philosophically we'll see). We singed BI, drafted CMB, then they parted with Masai and started a search for a new president with Bobby minding the shop, only to swtich gears a few months later and just roll with Bobby without naming him President. Very little was done this summer because of that or maybe because there was just no better options that they left themselves. But it seems like no matter what happens this year, you could still say you can't evaluate Darko because the front office gave him a poorly formed roster. Jsut where I'm coming from. Not my intention just to troll,

[ATLTimekeeper]

I can't speak for anyone else but personally I enjoy anyone that wants to contribute to a basketball argument. At this stage of the year, the season is a premise. You have to see if it works or not. Long-term, I just have stopped really bothering because player movement is the norm and there's all kinds of weird randomness in the NBA. Dallas went from the Finals, to trading Luka, to winning the lottery. Tyrese Haliburton had the reputation amongst his peers as being the most overrated of them all, to leading his team to within an achilles of the greatest upset in the history of the league. It's not like the negative potential doesn't exist, but it doesn't exist right now. What is to discuss but anxieties?

This team's Vegas O/U is like 37 games. I think people are expecting improvement, and if they're worse, well at least they have their pick this year.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

I can't speak for anyone else but personally I enjoy anyone that wants to contribute to a basketball argument. At this stage of the year, the season is a premise. You have to see if it works or not. Long-term, I just have stopped really bothering because player movement is the norm and there's all kinds of weird randomness in the NBA. Dallas went from the Finals, to trading Luka, to winning the lottery. Tyrese Haliburton had the reputation amongst his peers as being the most overrated of them all, to leading his team to within an achilles of the greatest upset in the history of the league. It's not like the negative potential doesn't exist, but it doesn't exist right now. What is to discuss but anxieties?

This team's Vegas O/U is like 37 games. I think people are expecting improvement, and if they're worse, well at least they have their pick this year.

It's hard cap situation to be at o/u 37 games. But I take your point and have been around long enough to recall the questionable behavior of the real ATLtimekeepers, I respect your opinion. From some, you get the feeling that only homer or positive takes belong, but you can have fans that want and have what feels to them as more realistic takes. And they are just a valid as fans. Without being open both it's not really a forum of discourse.