Fisher: Raptors are still shopping RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley

[ATLTimekeeper]

If they pandered to his father and nationality, why didn't they promote him for an all-star bid last year? They promoted Gary Trent Jr in the past.

This stuff will clear itself up when the games are played.

[Dennis 37]

IQ should move to the two with Scottie at the 1. RJ (6'6"), just an inch shorter than Scottie, and BI (6'8") at the 3/4 and Jakob at the 5.

The sooner you all understand Scottie is not a point guard, the better.

He simply does not have the ball handling skills, nor the decision making ability, to be a full-time 1.

IQ clears him on both fronts there.

Can we at least like let IQ play the PG position for a few weeks as a full-time starter before we conclude on what he is? As a Raptor he has has an assist rate on par with SGA and Curry, along with one of the lowest turnover rates in the league among PG's. Maybe we should just let that guy play point guard for a while with a healthy and non-tanking lineup before we conclude he can't do it.

Sure, a few weeks, even to Christmas.

Also this

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/he-may-not-be-magic-but-raptors-barnes-flashes-potential-as-oversized-guard/

[ATLTimekeeper]

IQ should move to the two with Scottie at the 1. RJ (6'6"), just an inch shorter than Scottie, and BI (6'8") at the 3/4 and Jakob at the 5.

The sooner you all understand Scottie is not a point guard, the better.

He simply does not have the ball handling skills, nor the decision making ability, to be a full-time 1.

IQ clears him on both fronts there.

Can we at least like let IQ play the PG position for a few weeks as a full-time starter before we conclude on what he is? As a Raptor he has has an assist rate on par with SGA and Curry, along with one of the lowest turnover rates in the league among PG's. Maybe we should just let that guy play point guard for a while with a healthy and non-tanking lineup before we conclude he can't do it.

Sure, a few weeks, even to Christmas.

Also this

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/he-may-not-be-magic-but-raptors-barnes-flashes-potential-as-oversized-guard/

This quote is pretty loaded with subtext.

“I'm probably the biggest believer in Scottie Barnes. I really love his game. I really love everything that he brings to the table,” said Rajakovic. “And all I want is Scottie Barnes to be Scottie Barnes. When Scottie Barnes is aggressive, when Scottie Barnes is competing, when he's rebounding the ball and he's pushing the ball in transition. The way he shares the ball, the way he's playing unselfishly — I don't want Scottie Barnes to be anything outside of Scottie Barnes. I just need him to be the best version of himself. And when he's that, he's really raising the people around him to another level. He's making everybody around him better.”

Scottie isn't a point guard, but he can do things with the ball, especially in transition that really elevate the team. When you give him the responsibility to create advantages in the half court, he looks less impressive.

[YogurtProducer]

IQ should move to the two with Scottie at the 1. RJ (6'6"), just an inch shorter than Scottie, and BI (6'8") at the 3/4 and Jakob at the 5.

The sooner you all understand Scottie is not a point guard, the better.

He simply does not have the ball handling skills, nor the decision making ability, to be a full-time 1.

IQ clears him on both fronts there.

Can we at least like let IQ play the PG position for a few weeks as a full-time starter before we conclude on what he is? As a Raptor he has has an assist rate on par with SGA and Curry, along with one of the lowest turnover rates in the league among PG's. Maybe we should just let that guy play point guard for a while with a healthy and non-tanking lineup before we conclude he can't do it.

Sure, a few weeks, even to Christmas.

Also this

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/he-may-not-be-magic-but-raptors-barnes-flashes-potential-as-oversized-guard/

That article was written during a month in which Scottie put up

21/9/7 on 52TS%.

So yes, the 21ppg seems nice, but it was incredibly inefficient, the rebounds are irrelevant to what position he plays, and 7 assists to 3 turnovers is nothing remarkable for a PG. OH, and this was a 5 game sample.

So our supporting argument is he once put up 20ppg on garbage efficiency for 5 games? Not the selling point I think you wanted it to be.

[deeps6x]

FWIW, IQ+RJ+picks for Giannis works in the trade machine.

Bobby, time to shove all in

Scottie Barnes, Jacob Poeltl and picks for Giannis also works in the trade machine.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

What about Scottie and IQ for Giannis?

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Throw Gradey into if possible and just don’t draft or trade for poor defenders or people who can’t shooot.

[ForeverTFC]

If they pandered to his father and nationality, why didn't they promote him for an all-star bid last year? They promoted Gary Trent Jr in the past.

This stuff will clear itself up when the games are played.

I don't know, ask Zach Lowe. Zach speculated RJ being Canadian, his dad's role with Canada basketball, and his salary as reasons why it's very unlikely he will be moved to the bench when Hollinger suggested the idea.

[CPT]

Why are we so worried about RJ’s contract value? He’s expiring next year.

I’d argue the best way to save his value is as a 6th man anyway.

Right now the perception around the league is probably that he’s not a good starter.

You can change that by having him become a good starter or a good bench player.

To become a good starter, he has to become more of a 3&D guy, because he’s just not worth the possessions as a 1st or 2nd option.

To become a good bench player, he has to show that he can play his game against other bench units. That seems far more likely to me.

[anotherhomer]

Rj is a good starter to playoff BI

[ATLTimekeeper]

If they pandered to his father and nationality, why didn't they promote him for an all-star bid last year? They promoted Gary Trent Jr in the past.

This stuff will clear itself up when the games are played.

I don't know, ask Zach Lowe. Zach speculated RJ being Canadian, his dad's role with Canada basketball, and his salary as reasons why it's very unlikely he will be moved to the bench when Hollinger suggested the idea.

Sounds like he was talking out of his *** to me Kind of insulting to both Bobby and Darko, too.

[Pointgod]

Consider this from an asset management perspective though. Sending RJ to the bench likely means his contract becomes even less valuable than it is perceived today. And conversely, Ochai inserted into the starting lineup inflates his leverage going into contract negotiation.

I think the rationale for RJ staying in the starting line up makes some sense if viewed from this perspective. I don't see us meaningfully competing this year, so we should still be focused on trying to maintain or improve the value of the players as much as possible. The trade off is limiting someone like Jakobe's playing time vs. cratering RJs value even further.

I don't see all of this set in stone though. Maybe they roll RJ in the SL until the trade deadline with the hope that we can move him then.

The whole point of the Ingram trade was to make us a more competitive team. I was told that it signalled the rebuilding era and the Raptors are ready to be a playoff team. Bringing RJ off the bench and starting Agbaji makes us a better and more balanced team, RJ’s trade value be damned. What was the whole point of trading for Ingram if we’re not going to try to be competitive? Traded for Ingram, gave him an extension, extended Poeltl, Barnes locked into a max contract, Quickley’s locked in, RJ will be tough to move because of his contract and we’re close to the tax. Darko should be putting the best lineups out there and giving minutes to the guys that will win.

I'm merely providing the perspective on why these decisions are not as simple as is often portrayed on real gm. As I said, moving RJ to the bench virtually assures he is an unmovable contract, and gives Agbaji more leverage going into contract negotiations. Do you disagree with these statements?

RJ’s value is set by the market whether or not he comes off the bench. The fact that’s he’s an inefficient scorer that plays best with the ball in his hands and isn’t a great defender in a league where shooting and defensive ability are valued, plus he’s making 54 million over the next two years is what makes his contract unmovable whether he starts or comes off the bench.

And yes, we are trying to be more competitive, but I would suggest a more important facet of this season is to try to improve the value of the people we have on questionable contracts. Specifically, we need to show that IQ and RJ are not negative value contracts. This gives us flexibility to make moves for us to be meaningfully competitive, rather than shortsighted roster moves that win us a couple of extra games now, but ensure we extract nothing of value out of someone like RJ. "RJ's trade value be damned" is a dumb statement to make for a team that isn't currently in a position to win meaningful playoff games. We need to extract as much value out of this roster as we can.

There are a couple of ways to improve a players value but it’s not improved in a vacuum. For us to trade Quickley and RJ, another team has to want them. Frankly, both player archetypes are common across the NBA and their contracts will limit their value around the league. One way to show value either to the Raptors or other teams is to contribute to winning and for RJ that means coming off the bench.

I would concede the counter argument as I pointed out in my prior post, that the real debate should be centred around at what point are we limiting the development of JaKobe or others. But I maintain what I said that these are not obvious or simple decisions for a GM to make as is often portrayed here.

I’m going off the path that our front office and management put us in. You can’t expect to win games and give players development minutes. Playing vets win games, playing young players loses games. If development was the course of action, we shouldn’t have brought in Ingram and we should have tried moving RJ earlier to open up minutes for our young guys.

[Axe Dragon]

I apologize to all those who come to get pumped up for the season and have to see thoughts on perceived shortcomings or concerns. I know that at the end of the day its just sports and not that serious. Speaking for myself though, its not coming from a place of trying to spoil your day or time on here, but perhaps we just want different things from the site and engagement. For me, I always approached this board as if we're all a bunch of arm chair GM's. Things like the trade machine and stuff all support the idea of this site for that. I come here to talk about what Id like to see the GM do, what I think they should do. I don't really care if the players and coaches we have are popular on line and If they aren't projecting to help us achieve our goals, I'd rather not have them on the team. In that respect, I hope the actual front office operates that way, Not that they agree with my thoughts( I want them to be able to do much better, I'm just some dude who makes his money doing other things, they make their money doing this) but I would not want them sitting around cherry picking stats that are just MJ and Scottie are the only two players with"....." or coming up with reasons why a not complete roster might work. I want them constantly looking at where they're weak, vulnerable, and how they get better.

This is a weird season. We tanked yet we're super invested into the tank roster with just BI added to it, and don't have a real path for meaningful playing time for the players we drafted, nor are we in a good position to be able to extend of sign any of them, for [emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]- [emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]years. Like with Ochai this year. We traded a [emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]st for him. I'm excited to have bball to watch but If Im honest I don't see a top [emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]]] team this season and I see using trending down as our place in the east is based on the injuries to BOS and Indy. I see no true PG, no front court depth, few guys who can shoot and defend. And the approach that the Summer league guys set the tone, makes little sense - as the guys who actually will play more don't play that way. I also think we've overpaing people thinking since the cap goes up the percentage goes down, but with the new CBA there's a new layer of austerity where teams know they'll need to max one or two main guys and have all the rest on value deals. Its hard to compete with wasted money on your books anymore. So how do we get off the guys we've already committed to. I can't help that these are the questions I have leading into the season and I'm sorry if it makes people sad to see it discussed. I'd love to chat about it here, I think that's what this place is for. Im at an age now where I no longer want to waste any time flamewarring or being as **** to people on here, I'd love to chat with people who approach it in the same way, Whether you agree with may take or not. But I, personally don't see the point of the discussion forum that isn't doing that. To me to not criticize is to not care.

As to why this is a weird season, its the firing of Masai. Are we still committed to the players and direction (financially we are, philosophically we'll see). We singed BI, drafted CMB, then they parted with Masai and started a search for a new president with Bobby minding the shop, only to swtich gears a few months later and just roll with Bobby without naming him President. Very little was done this summer because of that or maybe because there was just no better options that they left themselves. But it seems like no matter what happens this year, you could still say you can't evaluate Darko because the front office gave him a poorly formed roster. Jsut where I'm coming from. Not my intention just to troll,

Excellent post. I’m with all of this 100 %. The only other thing I come here for is “The Daily Papers”.

Axe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[TorontoBarneys]

Why are we so worried about RJ’s contract value? He’s expiring next year.

I’d argue the best way to save his value is as a 6th man anyway.

Right now the perception around the league is probably that he’s not a good starter.

You can change that by having him become a good starter or a good bench player.

To become a good starter, he has to become more of a 3&D guy, because he’s just not worth the possessions as a 1st or 2nd option.

To become a good bench player, he has to show that he can play his game against other bench units. That seems far more likely to me.

Good post. I'd say try him out as a starter for the first half of the season and see how it goes, then if it goes poorly again, let him know what's up before the ASG and let him adjust to his new 6th man role afterward.

[tsherkin]

Why are we so worried about RJ’s contract value? He’s expiring next year.

ROI, I imagine, as the basic way to look at it.

We'll have to see what he looks like in the RS over a reasonable sample. Odds are, he'll still be an oxygen thief at the line, but we need to see what his average shot distribution is going to look like and if he can get himself back to 70% FT, you know? He has tools, he has skills, and if he's hovering around league average efficiency, he looks a lot different than if he's rocking like 54% TS and blowing it at the line night after night.

[DreamTeam09]

If they pandered to his father and nationality, why didn't they promote him for an all-star bid last year? They promoted Gary Trent Jr in the past.

This stuff will clear itself up when the games are played.

kinda hard to ask for a reduction in salary when. you made an ASG

[dTox]

Read on Twitter

[mtcan]

Read on Twitter

Probably the worst time to make that kind of post considering that RJ was our most efficient starter last night, had no trouble finishing at the basket and hit both free throws that he attempted.

Are people really watching basketball or just **** posting for the engagement?

[ATLTimekeeper]

Read on Twitter

Probably the worst time to make that kind of post considering that RJ was our most efficient starter last night, had no trouble finishing at the basket and hit both free throws that he attempted.

Are people really watching basketball or just **** posting for the engagement?

A tweet like that should be an automatic unfollow. I don't know why this stuff gets passed on here like it's a valid observation. "Worst touch ever"?

[tsherkin]

[
A tweet like that should be an automatic unfollow. I don't know why this stuff gets passed on here like it's a valid observation. "Worst touch ever"?

It's hyperbolic, but he HAS generally been well below average at finishing apart from two seasons in his career, and he has no range except the right corner 3, so that's not wrong either, you know? And he's brutal at the line.