PG - Matas good

[Dan Z]

And they actually compliment each other to form the core of a logically constructed roster, rather than shoving puzzle pieces together by force.

Wait until we add Essengue. The three of them have the potential to be scary together.

How quickly we forget about Coby White who would also fit with the above three players

I'm sloppy today. To clarify, when I say add Essengue I'm referring to really, consistently adding him as a high minute core player. So I'm referring to 1-2 years from now and depending on if Noa is as good as I think he is. Certainly, by a significant margin, Coby will help more this season.

In my opinion, if this team has a meaningful future it will be because Giddey, Matas and Noa evolve into a huge, fast, athletic three headed monster who can run like crazy with Noa and Matas creating defensive havoc behind Giddey. To me, that is the "special" vision that represents a path to consistent higher level postseason success.

Coby, in my mind, is not special. He's a very good shooting guard, but a guy I believe is far easier to replace in a variety of ways. As of today, I'm not even convinced he's the best option on our own roster when projecting future salaries.

Do you think Coby should be traded at the deadline?

I have mixed thoughts on him, but if his next contract is okay then why not keep him with this core? The fact that AK actually negotiated with Giddey gives me some hope that he'll do the same with Coby.

[MrSparkle]

It was kind of amazing to see arguably the two best setup floor generals we've had in the modern era in Giddey and Jones orchestrate things. These guys are BOTH better as pure points than perhaps any player I can recall for the Bulls. Over Derrick Rose, Pippen, etc. Not as players of course, but as offensive quarterbacks.

This is true. Allows for a more sophisticated and watchable offense, despite the lack of super scoring talent. Vuc’s hot hand (and overall play inc. defense) surprised me; an obvious F-U to me after I spent all summer calling him the worst player in Bulls history. But obviously he, Matas and Huerter got very good looks all game long, without any hero ball.

Vuc won’t maintain a 75% TS. He’s had a rough time playing Orlando, and they’re next. But hopefully he shoots well. The Magic system defense is a whole other animal.

[dougthonus]

I didn't say he was bad on D. I should explain. He "looked poor all night" - in context of him being an elite defensive specialist who pretty much provides only that. I agree with JCool somewhat on this one. He did a decent job on Cade but some of it was just missed shots. He even shot 60% from the line. Okoro is still who he is, an excellent defender. I just don't think he was all that good at it last night for a dude who is supposed to be elite at it. Which is why I mentioned Pat, who had a very impactful game defensively.

Its not an insult to get outplayed defensively by a fully engaged Pat Williams. One of the nice things about Okoro is we anticipate being able to rely on his consistency, which we cannot do with Pat. But when you also can't score, it calls into question how much you are adding if Pat is engaged.

But it was one game and I was making a single game observation. I still think Okoro will be fine. I'm one of the folks who liked the trade.

I thought Okoro was better generally speaking than Pat yesterday. Pat had some nice moments on defense including that big block which was nice to see.

I thought Okoro was the better of the two on offense, though both were poor. Pat had 3-4 moments where I was like I literally have no idea WTF you are doing right now, whereas Okoro just didn't add anything, but didn't subtract anything, but he moved the ball more smoothly.

[DuckIII]

It was kind of amazing to see arguably the two best setup floor generals we've had in the modern era in Giddey and Jones orchestrate things. These guys are BOTH better as pure points than perhaps any player I can recall for the Bulls. Over Derrick Rose, Pippen, etc. Not as players of course, but as offensive quarterbacks.

Lonzo was ridiculous orchestrating on offense, with more "challenging" teammates, before his leg stopped working. But yes, its nice to have an actual 5 man offense operated by a point guard rather than watching the same 3 guys take turns launching shots.

[League Circles]

It was kind of amazing to see arguably the two best setup floor generals we've had in the modern era in Giddey and Jones orchestrate things. These guys are BOTH better as pure points than perhaps any player I can recall for the Bulls. Over Derrick Rose, Pippen, etc. Not as players of course, but as offensive quarterbacks.

Lonzo was ridiculous orchestrating on offense, with more "challenging" teammates, before his leg stopped working. But yes, its nice to have an actual 5 man offense operated by a point guard rather than watching the same 3 guys take turns launching shots.

I liked Lonzo a lot as a player and he was a very good passer especially starting breaks, but IMO he can't hold a candle to Giddey or Jones in half court orchestration (or a number of other guys like Pippen, Rose, etc).

[DuallyNoted]

It was kind of amazing to see arguably the two best setup floor generals we've had in the modern era in Giddey and Jones orchestrate things. These guys are BOTH better as pure points than perhaps any player I can recall for the Bulls. Over Derrick Rose, Pippen, etc. Not as players of course, but as offensive quarterbacks.

This is true. Allows for a more sophisticated and watchable offense, despite the lack of super scoring talent. Vuc’s hot hand (and overall play inc. defense) surprised me; an obvious F-U to me after I spent all summer calling him the worst player in Bulls history. But obviously he, Matas and Huerter got very good looks all game long, without any hero ball.

Vuc won’t maintain a 75% TS. He’s had a rough time playing Orlando, and they’re next. But hopefully he shoots well. The Magic system defense is a whole other animal.

Of course all of us are expecting Vucevic to have the most efficient season of all time. Who are you arguing with

[Stratmaster]

How quickly we forget about Coby White who would also fit with the above three players

I'm sloppy today. To clarify, when I say add Essengue I'm referring to really, consistently adding him as a high minute core player. So I'm referring to 1-2 years from now and depending on if Noa is as good as I think he is. Certainly, by a significant margin, Coby will help more this season.

In my opinion, if this team has a meaningful future it will be because Giddey, Matas and Noa evolve into a huge, fast, athletic three headed monster who can run like crazy with Noa and Matas creating defensive havoc behind Giddey. To me, that is the "special" vision that represents a path to consistent higher level postseason success.

Coby, in my mind, is not special. He's a very good shooting guard, but a guy I believe is far easier to replace in a variety of ways. As of today, I'm not even convinced he's the best option on our own roster when projecting future salaries.

Do you think Coby should be traded at the deadline?

I have mixed thoughts on him, but if his next contract is okay then why not keep him with this core? The fact that AK actually negotiated with Giddey gives me some hope that he'll do the same with Coby.

My 2 cents... it all comes down to that "is the contract OK" question. I still see Coby as a great 6th man on a contending team. Of course, the Bulls aren't likely contending anytime soon and because we have no other go-to scorers (although Matas may change that) he is going to put up big numbers by default.

If he is really looking for in the neighborhood of 35 mil... I would trade him at the first available opportunity that has a decent return. If that is all smoke and they can get him for under 25 mil a season then I only trade him for a GREAT return. The problem is, I am not sure the Bulls will know that answer before the trade deadline. He is (assuming healthy, or just a horrible regression) going to put up gaudy numbers. There isn't any way around that with this roster. And that means he is going to expect big bucks.

[madvillian]

Stephen Noh writing about the Bulls, always a good read:

https://substack.com/home/post/p-176920736

22% of Matas' points off cuts is wild given he was missed a handful of times by Giddy early. I think Noh is both harsh and fair on Giddy as a player and I do also think it's fair to question him as a primary handler -- especially down the stretch. Detroit has some tough on ball defenders but so do other teams and we do need a pressure valve late. Hopefully when White returns he can take some pressure off Josh.

And yea, there's no reason to give Terry 6 random minutes in a rapidly changing game in the 2nd half. Crazy to say but the way he was playing with energy I'd rather have given those minutes to Pat.

[Stratmaster]

I didn't say he was bad on D. I should explain. He "looked poor all night" - in context of him being an elite defensive specialist who pretty much provides only that. I agree with JCool somewhat on this one. He did a decent job on Cade but some of it was just missed shots. He even shot 60% from the line. Okoro is still who he is, an excellent defender. I just don't think he was all that good at it last night for a dude who is supposed to be elite at it. Which is why I mentioned Pat, who had a very impactful game defensively.

Its not an insult to get outplayed defensively by a fully engaged Pat Williams. One of the nice things about Okoro is we anticipate being able to rely on his consistency, which we cannot do with Pat. But when you also can't score, it calls into question how much you are adding if Pat is engaged.

But it was one game and I was making a single game observation. I still think Okoro will be fine. I'm one of the folks who liked the trade.

I thought Okoro was better generally speaking than Pat yesterday. Pat had some nice moments on defense including that big block which was nice to see.

I thought Okoro was the better of the two on offense, though both were poor. Pat had 3-4 moments where I was like I literally have no idea WTF you are doing right now, whereas Okoro just didn't add anything, but didn't subtract anything, but he moved the ball more smoothly.

In Pat's first minutes on the floor, I was honestly thinking he should never see the court outside of garbage minutes...ever...again. He did play great later in the game. But that's one small stint of basketball in the opening game at home when everyone was hyped. We have seen it before but never more than fleeting glimpses. If I see that consistently...hell, even for a full game lol...but more like for a full month's stretch, I would love to eat my words about him. I'm not holding my breath though. One other thing I have noticed is his best court minutes (and they are few and far between) seem to come with the Bulls ahead or behind by double digits Let's see all that energy in a game 50, back and forth, tightly played game.

[Stratmaster]

Stephen Noh writing about the Bulls, always a good read:

https://substack.com/home/post/p-176920736

22% of Matas' points off cuts is wild given he was missed a handful of times by Giddy early. I think Noh is both harsh and fair on Giddy as a player and I do also think it's fair to question him as a primary handler -- especially down the stretch. Detroit has some tough on ball defenders but so do other teams and we do need a pressure valve late. Hopefully when White returns he can take some pressure off Josh.

And yea, there's no reason to give Terry 6 random minutes in a rapidly changing game in the 2nd half. Crazy to say but the way he was playing with energy I'd rather have given those minutes to Pat.

I thought Giddey played very well. I do think some detractors (not you; you just mentioned it) are ignoring that with Coby out, the Pistons put all their focus on Giddey. The kid seems tough. A lot of players (Zach Lavine, are you out there) get frustrated and flustered when the defense goes all out to stop them individually. He seemed to just get more determined.

[Dan Z]

I'm sloppy today. To clarify, when I say add Essengue I'm referring to really, consistently adding him as a high minute core player. So I'm referring to 1-2 years from now and depending on if Noa is as good as I think he is. Certainly, by a significant margin, Coby will help more this season.

In my opinion, if this team has a meaningful future it will be because Giddey, Matas and Noa evolve into a huge, fast, athletic three headed monster who can run like crazy with Noa and Matas creating defensive havoc behind Giddey. To me, that is the "special" vision that represents a path to consistent higher level postseason success.

Coby, in my mind, is not special. He's a very good shooting guard, but a guy I believe is far easier to replace in a variety of ways. As of today, I'm not even convinced he's the best option on our own roster when projecting future salaries.

Do you think Coby should be traded at the deadline?

I have mixed thoughts on him, but if his next contract is okay then why not keep him with this core? The fact that AK actually negotiated with Giddey gives me some hope that he'll do the same with Coby.

My 2 cents... it all comes down to that "is the contract OK" question. I still see Coby as a great 6th man on a contending team. Of course, the Bulls aren't likely contending anytime soon and because we have no other go-to scorers (although Matas may change that) he is going to put up big numbers by default.

If he is really looking for in the neighborhood of 35 mil... I would trade him at the first available opportunity that has a decent return. If that is all smoke and they can get him for under 25 mil a season then I only trade him for a GREAT return. The problem is, I am not sure the Bulls will know that answer before the trade deadline. He is (assuming healthy, or just a horrible regression) going to put up gaudy numbers. There isn't any way around that with this roster. And that means he is going to expect big bucks.

I agree with you, but also want to add that outside of luck the Bulls won't get a top draft pick (because AK doesn't believe in picks) and a top free agent isn't walking through that door anytime soon.

That means there's a good chance that this roster might be what the team is for awhile.

With that in mind it might be a good idea to just re-sign Coby and keep him (within reason).

[cruwinas]

I put some $$$ on Bulls W moneyline and added them in one parlay too. Just to show my personal view about current state of affairs
Bulls started slow, then kicked into overdrive. All was peachy until 92-72 lead. Luckily, BD challenged reffs on Giddey's non-call and we got first W.
Vooch was superb. Last season he shot 40% from the distance? Cool. He outdid himself a bit, but we will take it.
Matas good. Really good. Not just stats, but he is good in his head. Active, smart on D, efficient on offense. Those 3 dunks added spice to the team and fans. Drives were very nice too. 7/7 from the line - yep, Bulls will take all of them everyday.
Giddey... things that he did well were nice, but plenty of blunders too. At the end of the second q he decided twice to attack all defenders early in the clock with ~20 points lead, stepped once the line. BD even took him out for the last couple minutes of the half to calm down.
Pat - 18 millions wasted.
Reserve center - clumsy and slow.
Okoro? Personally, I liked what I saw yesterday. Relentless, pesky. Took out 4-5 seconds of Pistons offense time by himself.
Huerter was smooth. Solid game. Man, he was a lost case in Sacramento. He had very good time with the Kings until they decided to trade for DDR. DDR is a good tank commander, to play winning bball is too much for him. Needless to say that DDR never ever played D or tried. One side of the court was a rest pit stop for him.
I began to notice more and more that on the floor Matas is the one that keeps things in check. Almost never lost on defense, doesn't get too emotional. Leads by example. Talks on D, coordinates other guys. Sure, just second season, lots of things on offense needs to be tried and make some of them work.
DDr, LaVine gone - let's have some quality fun in Chicago again.

[jnrjr79]

Stephen Noh writing about the Bulls, always a good read:

https://substack.com/home/post/p-176920736

22% of Matas' points off cuts is wild given he was missed a handful of times by Giddy early. I think Noh is both harsh and fair on Giddy as a player and I do also think it's fair to question him as a primary handler -- especially down the stretch. Detroit has some tough on ball defenders but so do other teams and we do need a pressure valve late. Hopefully when White returns he can take some pressure off Josh.

And yea, there's no reason to give Terry 6 random minutes in a rapidly changing game in the 2nd half. Crazy to say but the way he was playing with energy I'd rather have given those minutes to Pat.

I thought Giddey played very well. I do think some detractors (not you; you just mentioned it) are ignoring that with Coby out, the Pistons put all their focus on Giddey. The kid seems tough. A lot of players (Zach Lavine, are you out there) get frustrated and flustered when the defense goes all out to stop them individually. He seemed to just get more determined.

I think "tough" is exactly the right word to describe Giddey. Last season, when I was lucky enough to have some really nice seats for a game, it was remarkable to see how much he relished in absorbing contact.

[Stratmaster]

Do you think Coby should be traded at the deadline?

I have mixed thoughts on him, but if his next contract is okay then why not keep him with this core? The fact that AK actually negotiated with Giddey gives me some hope that he'll do the same with Coby.

My 2 cents... it all comes down to that "is the contract OK" question. I still see Coby as a great 6th man on a contending team. Of course, the Bulls aren't likely contending anytime soon and because we have no other go-to scorers (although Matas may change that) he is going to put up big numbers by default.

If he is really looking for in the neighborhood of 35 mil... I would trade him at the first available opportunity that has a decent return. If that is all smoke and they can get him for under 25 mil a season then I only trade him for a GREAT return. The problem is, I am not sure the Bulls will know that answer before the trade deadline. He is (assuming healthy, or just a horrible regression) going to put up gaudy numbers. There isn't any way around that with this roster. And that means he is going to expect big bucks.

I agree with you, but also want to add that outside of luck the Bulls won't get a top draft pick (because AK doesn't believe in picks) and a top free agent isn't walking through that door anytime soon.

That means there's a good chance that this roster might be what the team is for awhile.

With that in mind it might be a good idea to just re-sign Coby and keep him (within reason).

Yep. And I would say trade him for other talent. except, right now, his talent is the one you would need to replace the most.

[madvillian]

I've come around on Giddy as a solid starter for sure. He's got real limitations but he also has real strengths. Pretty positive opening night all things considered. We have some good young pieces and even if we do just win 35 or so games again at least it's on the backs of young improving players and not known qualities like Zach and blind hope in Lonzo's knees.

[Red8911]

Also I had to double take and blink rapidly my eyes, I thought im hallucinating, but Patrick Williams had to be calmed down by VUC of all people ahahahaha
I mean, finally bro, wake up and actually use that gifted body,.plenty of people would do anything for that kind of blessing.

Also love AYO, but he is trying to do too much out there. Maybe thinking and pressing for future contract

Yeah seems like Patrick grew some balls in the off season. Finally used that size and strength that he has.

Despite his somewhat improved play he’s still nothing more than an off the bench player who should not play no more than 15-20 min a game.

[pipfan]

Such a fun game-glad we didn't blow it. The only bad coaching move was playing Terry-I had to look twice to see who had subbed in. The guy's an 11th man at best-no need to throw him into a tight contest

[nomorezorro]

part of the reason evaluating giddey is so weird is that a lot of his weaknesses haven't really gone away, but he's found a way to mitigate all of them just enough to be significantly more effective without being a markedly different player aesthetically

he's still got questionable enough shooting mechanics to put up attempts like that first 3pt try yesterday, he still can look timid about challenging a defense off the dribble, still doesn't look fully confident when he is attacking the rim, still prone to defensive lapses, etc.

and yet. good game yesterday! just a real odd duck of a player

[Indomitable]

I didn't say he was bad on D. I should explain. He "looked poor all night" - in context of him being an elite defensive specialist who pretty much provides only that. I agree with JCool somewhat on this one. He did a decent job on Cade but some of it was just missed shots. He even shot 60% from the line. Okoro is still who he is, an excellent defender. I just don't think he was all that good at it last night for a dude who is supposed to be elite at it. Which is why I mentioned Pat, who had a very impactful game defensively.

Its not an insult to get outplayed defensively by a fully engaged Pat Williams. One of the nice things about Okoro is we anticipate being able to rely on his consistency, which we cannot do with Pat. But when you also can't score, it calls into question how much you are adding if Pat is engaged.

But it was one game and I was making a single game observation. I still think Okoro will be fine. I'm one of the folks who liked the trade.

I thought Okoro was better generally speaking than Pat yesterday. Pat had some nice moments on defense including that big block which was nice to see.

I thought Okoro was the better of the two on offense, though both were poor. Pat had 3-4 moments where I was like I literally have no idea WTF you are doing right now, whereas Okoro just didn't add anything, but didn't subtract anything, but he moved the ball more smoothly.

So Isaac pump fake airball/pass where he threw it away was not a wtf moment.

Isaac in the second half was messy but a lot of the Bulls were.

Neither Pat or Isaac should over think on offense.

[dougthonus]

Stephen Noh writing about the Bulls, always a good read:

https://substack.com/home/post/p-176920736

22% of Matas' points off cuts is wild given he was missed a handful of times by Giddy early. I think Noh is both harsh and fair on Giddy as a player and I do also think it's fair to question him as a primary handler -- especially down the stretch. Detroit has some tough on ball defenders but so do other teams and we do need a pressure valve late. Hopefully when White returns he can take some pressure off Josh.

And yea, there's no reason to give Terry 6 random minutes in a rapidly changing game in the 2nd half. Crazy to say but the way he was playing with energy I'd rather have given those minutes to Pat.

Could not disagree more on his take on Vuc's defense. Watch the first minute of the 2nd half and he basically gave up baskets on 3 straight possessions at the rim, one because he was so lazy he just didn't even bother moving, like he literally looked at the offensive guy and said "not my job". His early defense gave up two open dunks to Duren as well at the opening of the game. He looked terrible there. I don't want to rag on Vuc for it after a game where on offense he was absolutely awesome and completely critical. Vuc was massively important in this game, and we get blown out with out him, and Jalen Smith was just unbelievably bad on both ends, like unplayably bad.

So Vuc was by far the best option we had and with Collins out, he will remain so, but Vuc isn't going to shoot 66% from three on the season or score 28 points a game. He was the day's MVP (deservedly so), but the underlying defense issues are still absolutely there.