Post-game: Raptors DISMANTLE Bucks to reach .500

[PushDaRock]

I think the best part about Mamu atleast in terms of last nights game is even though he's primarily there as a undersized stretch 5 he still gets on the rebounds

His size is adequate to guard other bigs, he's just not going to be a help side shot blocker. But, he's actually quite mobile out there on the perimeter. You see that when he's helping and switching onto other guards. Jak and him make a great pairing at the 5 for this team.

[tsherkin]

Yeah, people talk a lot about this team having treadmill upside. But, after the last 2 seasons, I would say let's just get to that point first before worrying about it.

100%. Let's worry about not being awful before we worry about anything else. I'd love a good half-decade of second round appearances and such like we had with Lowry and Demar about now. We won a title. A very large portion of the league does not have a title on its franchise record at this point, and some of them are old franchises. Many more have not won a title since we joined the league, or even for longer. So yeah, we can tolerate a little treadmill action for a while and then see what we can do with that team, for sure.

It's kind of like how some players look good playing against bench players, but just aren't as capable against starting lineups.

There are levels to basketball. Derozan was super skilled, but his game didn't translate against quicker, longer athletes who have elite athleticism & aggressiveness. He also depended heavily on a quick whistle.

Demar worked hard, had solid athleticism and he improved incrementally for a long time. But he had weaknesses which he just didn't have the tools to overcome. He didn't have elite quickness, he didn't have an elite mental game, he didn't have a 3, he didn't have great power. It was really easy to frustrate him by crowding him, forcing him into bombing long twos. He was great at drawing fouls, and mostly pretty good at that even in the playoffs, but even in the RS, he was never very good at getting all the way to the basket. And that left him heavily inconsistent, and without a bail-out like a 3pt shot.

He was a great player for us in the RS for quite a while, and a big part of our team success in that span. And of course with him, we still made the ECFs against the eventual-champ Cavs in 2016, then lost to them in the second round a year later and in 2018 as well. Wasn't super-reasonable to expect much from him against Cleveland.

His greatest sin was that he wasn't good enough to be a proper focal option in the playoffs. And he was a bitch on defense. But the offense thing was a larger issue. And ultimately, there are only so many of those guys in the league at any given time. *shrug* We got a lot of great value from Demar.

[tsherkin]

His size is adequate to guard other bigs, he's just not going to be a help side shot blocker.

That's not a size issue. Dude was like 6'9 without shoes and had a wingspan north of 7'1, which is in that +5" territory. He has reach. No one's expecting him to be Mutombo, of course, but still.

[PushDaRock]

His size is adequate to guard other bigs, he's just not going to be a help side shot blocker.

That's not a size issue. Dude was like 6'9 without shoes and had a wingspan north of 7'1, which is in that +5" territory. He has reach. No one's expecting him to be Mutombo, of course, but still.

lol I'm saying the same thing. It's just not really a strength of his game, nothing to do with size, length or even athleticism.

[tsherkin]

His size is adequate to guard other bigs, he's just not going to be a help side shot blocker.

That's not a size issue. Dude was like 6'9 without shoes and had a wingspan north of 7'1, which is in that +5" territory. He has reach. No one's expecting him to be Mutombo, of course, but still.

lol I'm saying the same thing. It's just not really a strength of his game, nothing to do with size, length or even athleticism.

100%. He has most of the tools, he just hasn't been able to put together that element of things. but he brings other stuff, so it's okay, agreed.

[Clay Davis]

A dismantling of the Bucks is nothing compared to what the demonic rizz of the gales of November did in Lake Superior on November 10, 1975.

In any case, it's good to see a win. I initially found it funny (and typical) to see that people were saying Scottie out-performed Giannis (who he out-scored by a single point) but those defensive numbers... wow .

[Jerry Lucas]

Game 8 Win Shares summary:

Yesterday the players combined for 1.1 Win Shares, and got the 4th W of the season. Also the first game this season so far that the players have combined for at least 1 WS in a single game.

RJ: 0.3 WS
Scottie: 0.2 WS
IQ: 0.2 WS
Shead: 0.2 WS
Ingram: 0.1 WS
Poeltl: 0.1 WS
Gradey: 0.1 WS
Ja'Kobe: 0.1 WS

CMB: -0.1 WS
Mogbo: -0.1 WS

Everyone else that played yesterday had between -0.04 to 0.04 Win Shares (either rounds up to 0 instead of down to -0.1, or rounds down to 0 instead of up to 0.1).

[NBA Sheady]

We can build on this.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

A dismantling of the Bucks is nothing compared to what the demonic rizz of the gales of November did in Lake Superior on November 10, 1975.

In any case, it's good to see a win. I initially found it funny (and typical) to see that people were saying Scottie out-performed Giannis (who he out-performed by a single point) but those defensive numbers... wow .

Who invited Mr. Lightfoot?

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Game 8 Win Shares summary:

Yesterday the players combined for 1.1 Win Shares, and got the 4th W of the season. Also the first game this season so far that the players have combined for at least 1 WS in a single game.

RJ: 0.3 WS
Scottie: 0.2 WS
IQ: 0.2 WS
Shead: 0.2 WS
Ingram: 0.1 WS
Poeltl: 0.1 WS
Gradey: 0.1 WS
Ja'Kobe: 0.1 WS

CMB: -0.1 WS
Mogbo: -0.1 WS

Everyone else that played yesterday had between -0.04 to 0.04 Win Shares (either rounds up to 0 instead of down to -0.1, or rounds down to 0 instead of up to 0.1).

Thanks for these JL. RJ leading the team in WS so far on the season?

[Jerry Lucas]

Game 8 Win Shares summary:

Yesterday the players combined for 1.1 Win Shares, and got the 4th W of the season. Also the first game this season so far that the players have combined for at least 1 WS in a single game.

RJ: 0.3 WS
Scottie: 0.2 WS
IQ: 0.2 WS
Shead: 0.2 WS
Ingram: 0.1 WS
Poeltl: 0.1 WS
Gradey: 0.1 WS
Ja'Kobe: 0.1 WS

CMB: -0.1 WS
Mogbo: -0.1 WS

Everyone else that played yesterday had between -0.04 to 0.04 Win Shares (either rounds up to 0 instead of down to -0.1, or rounds down to 0 instead of up to 0.1).

Thanks for these JL. RJ leading the team in WS so far on the season?

Only behind Scottie, who's at 0.9. So far RJ is at 0.7

[Tor_Raps]

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Please dont let the win fool you into thinking IQ played well. He was by far the only raptor to suck tonight.

Not only with the poor shooting but he has a tendency to dribble the air out of the ball because he cant blow by anyone in this league lol.

You are just so offbase with this man. The guy was a huge reason why we jumped out on the Bucks to start the game.

Every fanbase says the same **** about their PG and its hilarious

"Dribble the air out of the ball'
"cant blow by anyone"
"gets blown by by everyone"

Maybe my expectations for a guy making 32.5M a year is higher than yours. Like you said, he did start the game well but was a negative after that imo. His lack of defense is one of the biggest reasons why we struggle on that end. I dont want me highly paid starting PG being clearly outplayed by his 2nd year backup.

[Madvillainy2004]

Bucks fans crying about Giannis' whistle are hilarious. He lowers his shoulder into everyone and gets away with his fair share of travels but 2 missed calls for a guy that gets like 10+ FTs a night and its some grand conspiracy.

[YogurtProducer]

Please dont let the win fool you into thinking IQ played well. He was by far the only raptor to suck tonight.

Not only with the poor shooting but he has a tendency to dribble the air out of the ball because he cant blow by anyone in this league lol.

You are just so offbase with this man. The guy was a huge reason why we jumped out on the Bucks to start the game.

Every fanbase says the same **** about their PG and its hilarious

"Dribble the air out of the ball'
"cant blow by anyone"
"gets blown by by everyone"

Maybe my expectations for a guy making 32.5M a year is higher than yours. Like you said, he did start the game well but was a negative after that imo. His lack of defense is one of the biggest reasons why we struggle on that end. I dont want me highly paid starting PG being clearly outplayed by his 2nd year backup.

I mean, IQ's defence is completely fine. You need to take a look around the NBA at what other teams throw out at the 1. And FWIW - Shead has not been terrific on that end either.

Shead plays against backups. IQ plays against starters. That matters. Not to mention, he has not been "clearly" outplayed by him by any means It becomes more and more clear everytime you complain about our guards you cannot evaluate a PG any deeper than "did he hit his 3's". Shead is way over his head shooting to start 2025, and IQ is waaay below. It will all work itself out.

[Clay Davis]

Yeah, people talk a lot about this team having treadmill upside. But, after the last 2 seasons, I would say let's just get to that point first before worrying about it.

100%. Let's worry about not being awful before we worry about anything else. I'd love a good half-decade of second round appearances and such like we had with Lowry and Demar about now. We won a title. A very large portion of the league does not have a title on its franchise record at this point, and some of them are old franchises. Many more have not won a title since we joined the league, or even for longer. So yeah, we can tolerate a little treadmill action for a while and then see what we can do with that team, for sure.

It's kind of like how some players look good playing against bench players, but just aren't as capable against starting lineups.

There are levels to basketball. Derozan was super skilled, but his game didn't translate against quicker, longer athletes who have elite athleticism & aggressiveness. He also depended heavily on a quick whistle.

Demar worked hard, had solid athleticism and he improved incrementally for a long time. But he had weaknesses which he just didn't have the tools to overcome. He didn't have elite quickness, he didn't have an elite mental game, he didn't have a 3, he didn't have great power. It was really easy to frustrate him by crowding him, forcing him into bombing long twos. He was great at drawing fouls, and mostly pretty good at that even in the playoffs, but even in the RS, he was never very good at getting all the way to the basket. And that left him heavily inconsistent, and without a bail-out like a 3pt shot.

He was a great player for us in the RS for quite a while, and a big part of our team success in that span. And of course with him, we still made the ECFs against the eventual-champ Cavs in 2016, then lost to them in the second round a year later and in 2018 as well. Wasn't super-reasonable to expect much from him against Cleveland.

His greatest sin was that he wasn't good enough to be a proper focal option in the playoffs. And he was a bitch on defense. But the offense thing was a larger issue. And ultimately, there are only so many of those guys in the league at any given time. *shrug* We got a lot of great value from Demar.

So I want to think about DD from the perpsective of Jimmy Butler, because it helps me to think about what Demar kind of lacks.

When you look at Jimmy Butler's numbers, they don't pop out the page as superstar numbers... yet we have seen Jimmy Butler get to the Finals as the #1 option twice, and he almost took us out in 2019 (I'd argue he was their most impactful player, even over Embiid).

However when you look at the scoring, it actually looks like Demar is the better player. Hell, I'd go as far as to say that Demar is actually better in the regular season than Jimmy. Demar is quite a good facilitator, especially in this twilight phase of his career. Jimmy isn't a particularly great sharpshooter.

I think that the core delineating factor is actually the mental. The focus. Jimmy just plays harder. He has the clutch gene to hit the tough shots. He never backs down.

It's kind of surprising to me since, well, I think Demar has tremendous mental rizz in his own right. I contend that, out of the players whose careers I've personally seen the span of, he has the best work ethic. Hands down. And that's a mental characteristic, right? Demar has some sort of mental edge, but it's not the mental edge he'd need to be the same sort of performer as Jimmy.

[Tor_Raps]

You are just so offbase with this man. The guy was a huge reason why we jumped out on the Bucks to start the game.

Every fanbase says the same **** about their PG and its hilarious

"Dribble the air out of the ball'
"cant blow by anyone"
"gets blown by by everyone"

Maybe my expectations for a guy making 32.5M a year is higher than yours. Like you said, he did start the game well but was a negative after that imo. His lack of defense is one of the biggest reasons why we struggle on that end. I dont want me highly paid starting PG being clearly outplayed by his 2nd year backup.

I mean, IQ's defence is completely fine. You need to take a look around the NBA at what other teams throw out at the 1. And FWIW - Shead has not been terrific on that end either.

Shead plays against backups. IQ plays against starters. That matters. Not to mention, he has not been "clearly" outplayed by him by any means It becomes more and more clear everytime you complain about our guards you cannot evaluate a PG any deeper than "did he hit his 3's". Shead is way over his head shooting to start 2025, and IQ is waaay below. It will all work itself out.

Wow, we are not watching the same game if you think IQs defense has been fine. We have had one of the worst defenses in the nba to start the year and hes a big reason why.

Also, no one said that Shead will continue being better than IQ going forward. For our sake, we better hope not lol.

[tsherkin]

So I want to think about DD from the perpsective of Jimmy Butler, because it helps me to think about what Demar kind of lacks.

When you look at Jimmy Butler's numbers, they don't pop out the page as superstar numbers... yet we have seen Jimmy Butler get to the Finals as the #1 option twice, and he almost took us out in 2019 (I'd argue he was their most impactful player, even over Embiid).

Sure. But it's worth looking not just at his RS numbers, but his PS numbers from 20 and 23.

2020: 22.2, 6.5, 6.0, 61.6% TS, 30.2% of his shots in the RA.
2023: 26.9, 6.5, 5.9, 56.5% TS (57.9% before a disappointing series against Denver in the Finals), 22.9% of his shots in the RA. Was 33yo at this point.

And, of course, he wasn't a legendarily-poor defender like Demar, and played for a team that did well on the glass and on D.

The big difference is that Jimmy was a real slasher, someone who exerted a lot of pressure on a defense and didn't just give in and bomb long twos.

[YogurtProducer]

Maybe my expectations for a guy making 32.5M a year is higher than yours. Like you said, he did start the game well but was a negative after that imo. His lack of defense is one of the biggest reasons why we struggle on that end. I dont want me highly paid starting PG being clearly outplayed by his 2nd year backup.

I mean, IQ's defence is completely fine. You need to take a look around the NBA at what other teams throw out at the 1. And FWIW - Shead has not been terrific on that end either.

Shead plays against backups. IQ plays against starters. That matters. Not to mention, he has not been "clearly" outplayed by him by any means It becomes more and more clear everytime you complain about our guards you cannot evaluate a PG any deeper than "did he hit his 3's". Shead is way over his head shooting to start 2025, and IQ is waaay below. It will all work itself out.

Wow, we are not watching the same game if you think IQs defense has been fine. We have had one of the worst defenses in the nba to start the year and hes a big reason why.

Also, no one said that Shead will continue being better than IQ going forward. For our sake, we better hope not lol.

We have the 16th ranked defence so far from "one of the worst".

If you look at our "bad" defensive games, I also am not quite sure how you think it was IQ. Our worst 4 defensive games have been:

1) HOU - 137.6DRTG - Yeah, this one was all due to Steven Adams and the fact we only grabbed 50% of our defensive boards.

2) DAL - 127.5DRG - aka, the "D'Angelo Russell game". I went through this with you one already, Russell did almost all his work against Ingram + Shead

3) SAS - 121.0DRTG - didn't see much of this one. Cannot really make a specific comment. Gotta assume tho IQ was not matched up with Wemby

4) MIL - 117.3DRTG - aka, the "Cole Anthony" and "Giannis put up 31/20 game" - again, Anthony did most his work against non-IQ lineups (we went through this one already), and IQ is not responsible for Giannis grabbing 20 boards lol

Overall - IQ is fairly solid for a PG defender. No one is pretending he is Jrue or Lowry, but he certainly is not Trae, Clarkson, or Simons. The majority of the complaining re: IQ is just hyperfocusing on everything he does. Go watch any other NBA game tonight and you'll see outside a few select great defenders, guards are getting blown by everywhere. If they weren't, scores would be 76-79 still.

[Shakril]

You know we all can go back and look at those threads right?

I don't know why you're trying to pretend a solid number if people were going crazy with the Scotty doom hot takes during the pre season.

You will always find one or two exceptions, but when you go back and look, you will see that most takes where about scottie beeing more or less the same like the years before. His two biggest flaws are his shooting and his maturity, and that was adressed in those posts. Now since the start of the season, he has cleaned that up so far.

Sure thing..

Thats your reaction? My fault for taking you serious.

[tsherkin]

We have the 16th ranked defence so far from "one of the worst".

Yes, though we did start out VERY poorly until the last couple of games, which is likely the origin of that comment.

1) HOU - 137.6DRTG - Yeah, this one was all due to Steven Adams and the fact we only grabbed 50% of our defensive boards.

2) DAL - 127.5DRG - aka, the "D'Angelo Russell game". I went through this with you one already, Russell did almost all his work against Ingram + Shead

3) SAS - 121.0DRTG - didn't see much of this one. Cannot really make a specific comment. Gotta assume tho IQ was not matched up with Wemby

4) MIL - 117.3DRTG - aka, the "Cole Anthony" and "Giannis put up 31/20 game" - again, Anthony did most his work against non-IQ lineups (we went through this one already), and IQ is not responsible for Giannis grabbing 20 boards lol

Yup. We did not handle size very well, for sure.

IQ has made some weird fouls and his shot selection has been questionable on the other end, but he's not, you know, Jose Calderon on defense. We suffer a lot from a lack of interior presence, a lack of rim deterrence, so we see POA defense much magnified in relevance. But there's only so much you can do with that.