Top 25 peaks of the 2001-25: #19-#20 Spots

[Doctor MJ]

1. Luka Doncic '24
2. Jayson Tatum '24
3. Anthony Davis '20
4. Jimmy Butler '20

Deadline snuck up on me again.

Alright so Luka, Tatum & AD were the 3 guys in pole position coming in to this thread and I stuck with them. Honestly, the ordering between them is not something I have strong opinions about based on the season in question.

In the end, there's something of a "Who can do their thing anywhere?" factor that I think is basically working as a tiebreaker for me. Luka is ready made to carry his teams, whereas I'd say Tatum & AD at their best have been in more perfect situations for them.

That said, just have to say, I think there's a good chance I'd draft Tatum over Luka if what I want is a franchise foundation with good habits I can count on, and part of me wants to side with Tatum because of this... but it's not like I was watching Luka in 2024 and thinking those type of concerns were holding the Mavs back on the court right then.

AD is clearly the least guaranteed performer of the bunch with health being a major reason why. I don't think it's fair to talk about AD as being spoonfed by LeBron in 2020 - I think he was at the time the best roller in the game and (in the Bubble) capable of hitting shots while also emerging as the one true outlier of a defender around. This stuff is a big deal, and it's why I just don't see any way to rate Butler for that year ahead of Davis.

The last spot, which I'm giving to Jimmy is the one that was really up for grabs and causing me to procrastinate on my vote. I'll say that when it came down to it, the last candidates on my mind other than him were Kidd, Ray, Big Ben, Pierce, Dwight, Westbrook, George, Gobert & Embiid.

Among the non-bigs, Kidd was the one I was thinking about the most, but when I watch Jimmy at is best, it's hard for me to really see weaknesses on either end of the floor, and while Kidd is obviously brilliant, Jimmy's really smart out there too.

Among the bigs, Embiid is the one I'm thinking the most about, but it's not all good. He's easily the greatest talent of any of these players, but as from the perspective of this project, as others have said: It's not even clear how to pick a year for Embiid because they all have ups & down.

Beyond Embiid, I think I'll end up with Big Ben over Dwight & Gobert. Ben vs Rudy is a great debate I think it would be good to see more of, but Ben over Dwight sounds on the face of it pretty ridiculous. I do think Dwight is clearly the greater talent, and his basketball talent limitations weren't a big problem for him at his peak in the sense of obviously lowering the ceiling of his team... but they were doing so subtly. The way that Ben served as the absolute keystone not just to an all-time great defense, but to an absolutely solid cultural foundation, is well beyond what the other bigs mentioned here were capable of. You couldn't just add Sheed to a team and have harmony, and no, I don't think coach Larry Brown is capable of harmonious culture either. The magic of that season all spirals around Ben and I see that as such a big deal.

But at the same time, if I do end up settling with Embiid over Ben, why not Dwight over Embiid? Well and good to say Embiid had the better regular seasons, but has he had any playoffs up there with Howard in '09 & '10? Certainly by definition, not if you're thinking about a deep playoff run as Embiid never had one of those. Easy for me to project Embiid at his best in Dwight's place and want to side with Embiid, but the counter is that you never get Embiid at his best through even a short playoff run let alone a possible deep run.

[eminence]

1. Jayson Tatum '24
2. Joel Embiid '23
3. Ben Wallace '04
4. Russell Westbrook '16

Tatum - Not quite BITW level, but consistent top 5 level play leading very strong teams, and a truly great one this season in particular. Style of play wise one of the most versatile players ever. Lead offensive player on the #4 relative Ortg team of the period (behind the '04 Mavs/'05 Suns/'16 Warriors).

Embiid - Last player available who was really in the discussion for BITW for any prolonged period imo. No real preference between '22/'23 imo, went with the season he won his MVP as slightly more memorable. Not my favorite player to watch, but very effective on both ends.

Wallace - Imagine I'm on an island here. If the Martians had the death beam pointed at earth and I needed to make an ordered list of the 'best' players it'd probably be another ~12 spots before I got to Ben. But for this list, I think those guys are 5-10% better than Ben and when factoring availability/accomplishment I'm happier with Big Ben in this spot than anyone else.

Westbrook - #13 relative Ortg to his name. A possession battle great (Jimmy/CP3/Westbrook the top 3 of the era). The '16 Spurs are one of the more impressive scalps remaining.

Too many guys I consider reasonable picks here to go into all the direct comparisons, but if there's someone anyone is interested in feel free to ask.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Hate to be that guy but it's wild to me Embiid hasn't gotten the nod yet

[The Explorer]

Hate to be that guy but it's wild to me Embiid hasn't gotten the nod yet

Westbrook, Rose, and 2001 Iverson are all getting slighted as well. 1A players that carried their teams with significant responsiblity are getting downgraded in favor of 2nd/3rd tier type players.

[Top10alltime]

Hate to be that guy but it's wild to me Embiid hasn't gotten the nod yet

Bro, you can't be surprised. Embiid is one of the most hated and disrespected centers ever, and even more so on RealGM. RealGM clearly has 2 glaring agendas, to hate Embiid and push Giannis, because these people have been influenced by media narratives.

If people are in touch with reality, he should've been top ten. The only players that are clear ahead of him are Lebron, KG, Duncan, Steph, Jokic, and Shaq. High as #7 and as low as #10. But RealGM makes up this narrative that Embiid sucks, based off of nothing but their dreams, and not reality.

[eminence]

Hate to be that guy but it's wild to me Embiid hasn't gotten the nod yet

Westbrook, Rose, and 2001 Iverson are all getting slighted as well. 1A players that carried their teams with significant responsiblity are getting downgraded in favor of 2nd/3rd tier type players.

No need to hate on KD like that.

[Owly]

Hate to be that guy but it's wild to me Embiid hasn't gotten the nod yet

Bro, you can't be surprised. Embiid is one of the most hated and disrespected centers ever, and even more so on RealGM. RealGM clearly has 2 glaring agendas, to hate Embiid and push Giannis, because these people have been influenced by media narratives.

If people are in touch with reality, he should've been top ten. The only players that are clear ahead of him are Lebron, KG, Duncan, Steph, Jokic, and Shaq. High as #7 and as low as #10. But RealGM makes up this narrative that Embiid sucks, based off of nothing but their dreams, and not reality.

I may regret engaging but why would you spend time with a group and engaging them specifically on a topic where you regard them as basing their discussion "off of nothing but their dreams, and not reality" (which for what it's worth contradicts the prior assertion that it is "media narratives" rather than "nothing but their dreams" driving the purported bias). And why would anyone listen when you are concertedly lumping the group together into a homogeneous blob and then casually dismissing it.

No player in this discussion sucks. I'd be very surprised if anyone seriously and sensibly discussing the matter thought they did.

[-Luke-]

Hate to be that guy but it's wild to me Embiid hasn't gotten the nod yet

Bro, you can't be surprised. Embiid is one of the most hated and disrespected centers ever, and even more so on RealGM. RealGM clearly has 2 glaring agendas, to hate Embiid and push Giannis, because these people have been influenced by media narratives.

If people are in touch with reality, he should've been top ten. The only players that are clear ahead of him are Lebron, KG, Duncan, Steph, Jokic, and Shaq. High as #7 and as low as #10. But RealGM makes up this narrative that Embiid sucks, based off of nothing but their dreams, and not reality.

Is that the same media that voted Embiid MVP? With 73 out of 100 first place votes, 61 more than Giannis, who is the media darling compared to the much-hated Embiid?

[Cavsfansince84]

Hate to be that guy but it's wild to me Embiid hasn't gotten the nod yet

Westbrook, Rose, and 2001 Iverson are all getting slighted as well. 1A players that carried their teams with significant responsiblity are getting downgraded in favor of 2nd/3rd tier type players.

You realize only 18 dudes from the last 25 years have gone in so far right? I'd agree that there are a lot of guys that cases can be made for once you get past about 12 but guys who show up for 50-60 games in the rs and that tend to fall on their faces in the ps aren't going to be that high on everyone's list. Granted AI in 01 made the finals and I'd agree he deserves some consideration at this point but its not egregious at all that none of those guys have been voted in yet. It's like look at the guys who are getting in. These are all atg players. Maybe try participating and making a case for a guy rather than just commenting on how certain players aren't in yet as though voters are being so biased or w/e to leave them off ballots. Then see what happens while also realizing not everyone has the same criteria for a peak to begin with.

[Top10alltime]

Hate to be that guy but it's wild to me Embiid hasn't gotten the nod yet

Bro, you can't be surprised. Embiid is one of the most hated and disrespected centers ever, and even more so on RealGM. RealGM clearly has 2 glaring agendas, to hate Embiid and push Giannis, because these people have been influenced by media narratives.

If people are in touch with reality, he should've been top ten. The only players that are clear ahead of him are Lebron, KG, Duncan, Steph, Jokic, and Shaq. High as #7 and as low as #10. But RealGM makes up this narrative that Embiid sucks, based off of nothing but their dreams, and not reality.

Is that the same media that voted Embiid MVP? With 73 out of 100 first place votes, 61 more than Giannis, who is the media darling compared to the much-hated Embiid?

That's even more proof of Giannis glaze. Giannis wasn't better than De Aaron Fox in 2023.
Also Embiid deserved the MVP. The media couldn't deny that

[Cavsfansince84]

That's even more proof of Giannis glaze. Giannis wasn't better than De Aaron Fox in 2023.
Also Embiid deserved the MVP. The media couldn't deny that

I think it might be good if you could try to make a case for Embiid without mentioning Giannis at all.

[One_and_Done]

Hate to be that guy but it's wild to me Embiid hasn't gotten the nod yet

Westbrook, Rose, and 2001 Iverson are all getting slighted as well. 1A players that carried their teams with significant responsiblity are getting downgraded in favor of 2nd/3rd tier type players.

Those are 3 text book cases for overrated players. Not one of them should be considered yet. It's wild to me that anyone other than Luka or Jimmy Butler is #1 right now. I guess I can see AD's case too, but Westbrook? Ben Wallace? The always injured Embiid who has done nothing in the playoffs? Even Tatum is kind of a wild vote for a top 2 spot. He.wasn't even the best player on his own team in the finals when they won it.

Like, we've already seen Butler and Tatum go head to head, and it was clear who was more impactful. Is everyone else watching video of those series from an alternative dimension. When the Celtics scraped by the injured Heat in 2022, Tatum wasn't the best Celtic in that series either.

[Top10alltime]

Hate to be that guy but it's wild to me Embiid hasn't gotten the nod yet

Westbrook, Rose, and 2001 Iverson are all getting slighted as well. 1A players that carried their teams with significant responsiblity are getting downgraded in favor of 2nd/3rd tier type players.

Those are 3 text book cases for overrated players. Not one of them should be considered yet. It's wild to me that anyone other than Luka or Jimmy Butler is #1 right now. I guess I can see AD's case too, but Westbrook? Ben Wallace? The always injured Embiid who has done nothing in the playoffs? Even Tatum is kind of a wild vote for a top 2 spot. He.wasn't even the best player on his own team in the finals when they won it.

Since you are ignorant and don't analyze basketball in any meaningful way, it's probably a waste of time sending you this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1o4xsv3/2021_giannis_vs_2021_embiid_playoffs_comparison/?nstoken=7SOY%2FFbMog3%2FTQb%2FVNUV%2FthKeajd1yMiCkeoooLakKwJnToZN0npY9yTnZVt5XiT3QvjvISsKPp0pOAkKhPP2biCfp0Lrz25eYwWafLXHBgbiMf%2Ff7z7BBjmZUkKYxLmVqOlhR9XyF8MAWarpWYFECxcR9dYFrCxUjgP822l5ZkXqYI4M8IKjcA525hpQ9TW1Ah%2F1z1Ld1H0tx4%2FhRBqPaesALdswnYgMBxH5l1dDWKsVmbU0UpPzqzMvlTvyGB0SKz1Ux9aNSgt6HnAjcnsb%2Bb8yqQJLbHkD5nxjrFcbiX8APmv%2Fu4JKeMncFAi%2B83UoWjm28UchxSpftPfz%2BgIbzpHucY6%2BNCQ8g4NNbayljtmXOPyuDKAXSm4l%2BeDKKyOlKGGA4YHDEexBWW%2Fp%2Fo3SBxyyre16eHtzU61fdgZ15BjKjPelNuz2t12Npj9NZUq2fTjfNZzRgLz9eDEaw7%2BN2wVMHznUhtMth9OsZFTwovK4v11yosSudhmxc2zxlq%2F%2B81qEWPJjlHQUPR9i4XyZdBjm4t2ty9rJQFl7RK6AHd%2BU59WbPY%2Flur4z6j%2FtTbpR4ylY6owzRqnMoseQ1Xt1sRYhldsoVxpIsMIR2RRzN1KMAnrRVSn56qlworPL3OIIaUoKOUHkvGAwao%3D&nscheck=%2FOZJkwtbhrEvRAM%2F25cKNg%3D%3D

I don't know where the narrative Embiid sucked in the playoffs came from. RealGM is doing a terrible job of pushing this agenda

[Top10alltime]

That's even more proof of Giannis glaze. Giannis wasn't better than De Aaron Fox in 2023.
Also Embiid deserved the MVP. The media couldn't deny that

I think it might be good if you could try to make a case for Embiid without mentioning Giannis at all.

Embiid should already be here. It's a crime everyone underrated him, even though he had injuries to add context to the playoffs, and he performed elite in the 2021 and 2024 playoffs with injuries.....

Embiid is an elite scorer everywhere, his timing while shooting the jump shots is more valuable to an offense than extremely volatile tough shot-making, he is an elite shot-creator and can be useful in offensive systems (Like with Harden or Maxey). Unlike most big men, he doesn't have a weakness in face-up game. He is an ATG mid-range scorer, and a great post scorer (great mismatch hunter too). Elite footwork and strength makes him a force there. He is an amazing foul-drawer and punishes defenses for it too. ATG scorer at least.

As a playmaker, he has very good processing actually, and is at least a great playmaker because he has great rim pressure, as a roll man he is providing advantages for his team. As a screener, he's a great one. His passing arsenal is very good, bounce passing, pocket passing, overhead passing, PnR or off of screen, and a great transition playmaker when moving. Amazing decision making. Great playmaker at least.

Now, on the defensive end, he is elite, or maybe fringe ATG at defense. Very big with good mobility, an elite rim protector and as an interior defender overall. Pretty switchable, a good on-ball defender and help defender. Good perimeter defense, and ATG drop defense. Anchors top 5 defenses while on the floor too.


Embiid should clearly have been here by now, but people hate him for some reason. They put guys like Shai (bruh) and Giannis (terrible takes) over him.

Embiid is clearly the pick, and if there's another round without Embiid, I don't know what to say about realGM. Must be a group of anti-Embiid people.


Anyways, after Embiid, we could pick people like KD, CP3, Kobe, or Harden. Nash and Dirk are in contention too.

Unfortunately, I'm not voting here, so I am not interested in actually doing some damage or something like that. Also, people here are usually stubborn and close-minded. Many people are hostile (I'm not directing this at anyone, but these people know who they are).

So, here's that Embiid case. I don't think you could debunk anything about that.

Christ bless you all anyways, God loves you

But OFC, people will excuse 2021-24 Embiid greatness with "playoffs" (2021 and 2024 playoffs is elite), and "injuries" (2021 Embiid exists). The only problem is, he had a horrible supporting cast. It's fine, you won't put up any meaningful argument anyways, I at least have the comfort of being right

[Cavsfansince84]

But OFC, people will excuse 2021-24 Embiid greatness with "playoffs" (2021 and 2024 playoffs is elite), and "injuries" (2021 Embiid exists). The only problem is, he had a horrible supporting cast. It's fine, you won't put up any meaningful argument anyways, I at least have the comfort of being right

Yes, I agree that the only thing that has kept Joel from winning multiple rings is his horrible supporting casts. God bless.

[Top10alltime]

But OFC, people will excuse 2021-24 Embiid greatness with "playoffs" (2021 and 2024 playoffs is elite), and "injuries" (2021 Embiid exists). The only problem is, he had a horrible supporting cast. It's fine, you won't put up any meaningful argument anyways, I at least have the comfort of being right

Yes, I agree that the only thing that has kept Joel from winning multiple rings is his horrible supporting casts. God bless.

What. Yeah, Embiid has been injured in the playoffs before, doesn't mean it affected his availability or playoffs performance by THAT much. He still performed incredible in 2021 playoffs. His team is the reason they didn't make it over the Hawks .

Embiid performed well in game 1, 5, and 7 where he lost. That's none of his fault, it's because of garbage players. When they started playing well in Game 2 and 3, they won. Dude literally had a worse support than Curry that season (Curry was the better player that season though). The Sixers had no buisness of being in the playoffs.

Give Embiid the supporting cast that Utah, Phoenix or Milwaukee had, and they go the distance winning the championship. Put the respective stars of those teams onto the Sixers and they get a top pick.
Unfortunate Sixers got good now, and they couldn't do it earlier.....

[One_and_Done]

But OFC, people will excuse 2021-24 Embiid greatness with "playoffs" (2021 and 2024 playoffs is elite), and "injuries" (2021 Embiid exists). The only problem is, he had a horrible supporting cast. It's fine, you won't put up any meaningful argument anyways, I at least have the comfort of being right

Yes, I agree that the only thing that has kept Joel from winning multiple rings is his horrible supporting casts. God bless.

Even if you could make the argument that Embiid was 'elite' in the 21 and 24 playoffs, those seasons wouldn't be viable selections because he missed so many regular season games those years.

I actually quite like Embiid. Not over Luka of course, but as a talent he's worthy of discussion at this point. I just don't see how you could vote for seasons where he played 51 and 39 games. Come on, you know that's absurd.

[lessthanjake]

But OFC, people will excuse 2021-24 Embiid greatness with "playoffs" (2021 and 2024 playoffs is elite), and "injuries" (2021 Embiid exists). The only problem is, he had a horrible supporting cast. It's fine, you won't put up any meaningful argument anyways, I at least have the comfort of being right

Yes, I agree that the only thing that has kept Joel from winning multiple rings is his horrible supporting casts. God bless.

Even if you could make the argument that Embiid was 'elite' in the 21 and 24 playoffs, those seasons wouldn't be viable selections because he missed so many regular season games those years.

I actually quite like Embiid. Not over Luka of course, but as a talent he's worthy of discussion at this point. I just don't see how you could vote for seasons where he played 51 and 39 games. Come on, you know that's absurd.

To be fair, Embiid missed 21 regular season games in the 2021 season, and you’re voting for a Jimmy Butler year where he missed 18 regular season games. Granted, missing 21 games in a slightly shortened season is a little worse than if it were in a full season and missing 21 games is more than 18 games, but it’s still not really very different from the Butler year you’re voting for.

The bigger thing for me with 2021 Embiid is that you combine the missed games *and* an extremely disappointing playoff run for his team—where they lost to a very mediocre team that I was about 100% sure they’d beat. It’s admittedly a bit harsh on Embiid, since he actually played pretty well in the series they lost and the Sixers lost in large part because they got destroyed with him off the court. But I just find it hard to vote as a “greatest peak” a year where a guy’s team lost in the playoffs to the Trae Young Hawks. There’s just a lot of years where great players accomplished a lot more. Maybe if the regular season had been super great then I could vote for 2021 Embiid, but that’s where missing 21 games of a 72 game season comes in. As well as Embiid played when he was out there, I’m not all that keen on having a regular season be the primary basis for the greatness of a guy’s peak when he missed that many games. So yeah, missing almost 30% of the regular season and then losing in the second round of the playoffs to a mediocre team is kind of a tough sell, even accounting for the fact that he was great when he played. I may well still vote for Embiid in the next couple threads though. At a certain point, he may just be enough better than other guys when healthy that it’ll be enough to overlook the glaring issues.

[homecourtloss]

Yes, I agree that the only thing that has kept Joel from winning multiple rings is his horrible supporting casts. God bless.

Even if you could make the argument that Embiid was 'elite' in the 21 and 24 playoffs, those seasons wouldn't be viable selections because he missed so many regular season games those years.

I actually quite like Embiid. Not over Luka of course, but as a talent he's worthy of discussion at this point. I just don't see how you could vote for seasons where he played 51 and 39 games. Come on, you know that's absurd.

To be fair, Embiid missed 21 regular season games in the 2021 season, and you’re voting for a Jimmy Butler year where he missed 18 regular season games. Granted, missing 21 games in a slightly shortened season is a little worse than if it were in a full season and missing 21 games is more than 18 games, but it’s still not really very different from the Butler year you’re voting for.

The bigger thing for me with 2021 Embiid is that you combine the missed games *and* an extremely disappointing playoff run for his team—where they lost to a very mediocre team that I was about 100% sure they’d beat. It’s admittedly a bit harsh on Embiid, since he actually played pretty well in the series they lost and the Sixers lost in large part because they got destroyed with him off the court. But I just find it hard to vote as a “greatest peak” a year where a guy’s team lost in the playoffs to the Trae Young Hawks. There’s just a lot of years where great players accomplished a lot more. Maybe if the regular season had been super great then I could vote for 2021 Embiid, but that’s where missing 21 games of a 72 game season comes in. As well as Embiid played when he was out there, I’m not all that keen on having a regular season be the primary basis for the greatness of a guy’s peak when he missed that many games. So yeah, missing almost 30% of the regular season and then losing in the second round of the playoffs to a mediocre team is kind of a tough sell, even accounting for the fact that he was great when he played. I may well still vote for Embiid in the next couple threads though. At a certain point, he may just be enough better than other guys when healthy that it’ll be enough to overlook the glaring issues.

I understand the reticence due to missed games but not about losing “to the Trae Young Hawks.” Firstly, outside of the two or three greatest pkayers ever, winning in the playoffs isn’t easy, even against the “weak East” as many people have discussed. Even given that, Embiid was +13 in the game 1 loss that really messed the team up and then was +11 with 35 points in the game 5 loss. Even if we blame him for the 4-20 shooting in the game 4 loss, he was still +0 on court as he was their defensive anchor. Game 6 and game 7 weren’t the greatest but the series should have been over by then. Danny Green’s injury was also a big deal in that series.

2021 Playoffs Embiid
+9.9 On, -15.4 off vs. the Hawks, +4.5 rORtg, -7.6 rDRtg
+34.7 On, +0.0 off vs. the Wizards, +25.7 rORtg, -7.3 rDRtg

Lastly, Embiid has been a high impact playoffs player . Take a look at where he stands in playoffs RAPM in comparison to his contemporary, Nikola Jokic. If Jokic were to be a +7 player for the next 2,500 playoffs minutes, his career RAPM would be around where Embiid’s is now.

Playoffs RAPM Visualization

[One_and_Done]

I could have copped out and voted 2020 Butler, who played more games, but I went with 2023 Butler who not only played enough RS games, but who also played a tonne of playoff games on a deep finals run, because I think he was better that year. Butler's playoff durability isn't irrelevant. But for those whose games played threshold is higher, they can just vote for 2020.