Ivey and Duren Extensions

[DetroitSho]

I think that’s a gross mischaracterization of MY view on Ivey, at least. I spelled out the things we’ve seen and the upcoming money issues. That’s all I’m saying.

I’d like nothing more than for Ivey to come back, shoot lights out, reclaim his starting spot, and improve on defense. That’d be awesome! But how likely is it, and if it happens, how do we pay both him and Duren what they want long term?

Also, I think it’s worth noting that your idea of just putting Ivey on the weakest threat doesn’t work. Sure, it can be his assignment, but in a heavy P&R league, the weak defenders always get targeted when basketball gets serious. It happens to Brunson, Mitchell, Curry and every other great player that isn’t that good on the defensive side. Ivey in his current form will hurt our defense. The question is, is his offense good enough to make that worthwhile? The answer could easily be yes, by the way. Our offense isn’t very good, and his defense isn’t any worse than Robinson’s anyway.

Looks like his defense just improved without even stepping on the court. He went from worst defender to now even with Robinson. Let me ask, how is the "Robinson hunting" working out for other teams?

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[tmorgan]

I think that’s a gross mischaracterization of MY view on Ivey, at least. I spelled out the things we’ve seen and the upcoming money issues. That’s all I’m saying.

I’d like nothing more than for Ivey to come back, shoot lights out, reclaim his starting spot, and improve on defense. That’d be awesome! But how likely is it, and if it happens, how do we pay both him and Duren what they want long term?

Also, I think it’s worth noting that your idea of just putting Ivey on the weakest threat doesn’t work. Sure, it can be his assignment, but in a heavy P&R league, the weak defenders always get targeted when basketball gets serious. It happens to Brunson, Mitchell, Curry and every other great player that isn’t that good on the defensive side. Ivey in his current form will hurt our defense. The question is, is his offense good enough to make that worthwhile? The answer could easily be yes, by the way. Our offense isn’t very good, and his defense isn’t any worse than Robinson’s anyway.

Looks like his defense just improved without even stepping on the court. He went from worst defender to now even with Robinson. Let me ask, how is the "Robinson hunting" working out for other teams?

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Basketball hasn’t gotten serious yet.

[DetroitSho]

I think that’s a gross mischaracterization of MY view on Ivey, at least. I spelled out the things we’ve seen and the upcoming money issues. That’s all I’m saying.

I’d like nothing more than for Ivey to come back, shoot lights out, reclaim his starting spot, and improve on defense. That’d be awesome! But how likely is it, and if it happens, how do we pay both him and Duren what they want long term?

Also, I think it’s worth noting that your idea of just putting Ivey on the weakest threat doesn’t work. Sure, it can be his assignment, but in a heavy P&R league, the weak defenders always get targeted when basketball gets serious. It happens to Brunson, Mitchell, Curry and every other great player that isn’t that good on the defensive side. Ivey in his current form will hurt our defense. The question is, is his offense good enough to make that worthwhile? The answer could easily be yes, by the way. Our offense isn’t very good, and his defense isn’t any worse than Robinson’s anyway.

Looks like his defense just improved without even stepping on the court. He went from worst defender to now even with Robinson. Let me ask, how is the "Robinson hunting" working out for other teams?

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Basketball hasn’t gotten serious yet.

Oh that's right, it will the minute Ivey comes back.

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[tmorgan]

Don’t get your point or your attitude, Sho. Either you think I’m stupid, which is insulting, or you are intentionally saying strange things to bait an argument, which is pointless.

I made my stance very clear. Disagreement is cool. Distorting what I’ve said is not.

[DetroitSho]

Don’t get your point or your attitude, Sho. Either you think I’m stupid, which is insulting, or you are intentionally saying strange things to bait an argument, which is pointless.

I made my stance very clear. Disagreement is cool. Distorting what I’ve said is not.

I'm taking literally your own commentary and trying to make sense of things. You're painting this picture that we need to be bracing ourselves for this potential blow to our defense immediately upon Ivey's arrival. Not when things "get serious". But, to your own admission, he's no worse defensively than the guy he's replacing.

Your whole characterization of Ivey's defense is based on a situation (a bunch of other bad/disinterested defenders) and a primary role (POA defender) that doesn't exist anymore. You never allow for that context, which lends the thinking to this being some "designated whipping boy" type thing going on. For some reason Ivey is the one of our young guys that's least allowed to grow by posters on this board.


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[tmorgan]

Don’t get your point or your attitude, Sho. Either you think I’m stupid, which is insulting, or you are intentionally saying strange things to bait an argument, which is pointless.

I made my stance very clear. Disagreement is cool. Distorting what I’ve said is not.

I'm taking literally your own commentary and trying to make sense of things. You're painting this picture that we need to be bracing ourselves for this potential blow to our defense immediately upon Ivey's arrival. Not when things "get serious". But, to your own admission, he's no worse defensively than the guy he's replacing.

Your whole characterization of Ivey's defense is based on a situation (a bunch of other bad/disinterested defenders) and a primary role (POA defender) that doesn't exist anymore. You never allow for that context, which lends the thinking to this being some "designated whipping boy" type thing going on. For some reason Ivey is the one of our young guys that's least allowed to grow by posters on this board.


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OK, this is all reasonably stated.

The other side is…

You act like Ivey didn’t play for 2.4 years of games before his broken leg and subsequent issue now. He’s been allowed to grow. His defense did improve a little, but it was still bad, and not just in the POA role he sometimes (not always) filled. His screen navigation remains garbage, and he doesn’t seem to have any instincts on when to pressure and when to react. I have no idea what it’s like to be an athlete of Ivey’s stature, as I was strictly average at best, but it seems to me he’s only using his additional quickness and speed to make additional mistakes and overreactions.

As a shooter, he looked VERY good last year. As a finisher, not so much, which is again really weird given his tools. I’m curious to see how his additional strength (he looked much bigger in preseason) affects both his finishing and his shooting. As an offensive player, he’s definitely grown, but he probably still isn’t much of an initiator for anyone but himself. It will be interesting to see how that goes, too, when he gets another chance.

It would definitely be foolish to trade Jaden before he’s healthy, no debate there. His value, which had peaked in December, has now cratered. No one knows what he’s going to look like when he returns. He looked pretty bad in his preseason game, but we subsequently found out he was still dealing with a leg problem (the other one, if I recall correctly). I’m speaking more of down the line. If Duren keeps playing like this, 30 is a given, and it could be more. If we start to struggle when Ivey is back, there will be inevitable finger-pointing. He’s going to be under quite a bit of pressure, which is unfortunate. I’m sure JBB will do a great job preparing him, but it’ll be up to Ivey to show his worth.

[tmorgan]

And if it wasn’t clear… “when basketball gets serious” = in the playoffs.

[DetroitSho]

Don’t get your point or your attitude, Sho. Either you think I’m stupid, which is insulting, or you are intentionally saying strange things to bait an argument, which is pointless.

I made my stance very clear. Disagreement is cool. Distorting what I’ve said is not.

I'm taking literally your own commentary and trying to make sense of things. You're painting this picture that we need to be bracing ourselves for this potential blow to our defense immediately upon Ivey's arrival. Not when things "get serious". But, to your own admission, he's no worse defensively than the guy he's replacing.

Your whole characterization of Ivey's defense is based on a situation (a bunch of other bad/disinterested defenders) and a primary role (POA defender) that doesn't exist anymore. You never allow for that context, which lends the thinking to this being some "designated whipping boy" type thing going on. For some reason Ivey is the one of our young guys that's least allowed to grow by posters on this board.


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OK, this is all reasonably stated.

The other side is…

You act like Ivey didn’t play for 2.4 years of games before his broken leg and subsequent issue now. He’s been allowed to grow. His defense did improve a little, but it was still bad, and not just in the POA role he sometimes (not always) filled. His screen navigation remains garbage, and he doesn’t seem to have any instincts on when to pressure and when to react. I have no idea what it’s like to be an athlete of Ivey’s stature, as I was strictly average at best, but it seems to me he’s only using his additional quickness and speed to make additional mistakes and overreactions.

As a shooter, he looked VERY good last year. As a finisher, not so much, which is again really weird given his tools. I’m curious to see how his additional strength (he looked much bigger in preseason) affects both his finishing and his shooting. As an offensive player, he’s definitely grown, but he probably still isn’t much of an initiator for anyone but himself. It will be interesting to see how that goes, too, when he gets another chance.

It would definitely be foolish to trade Jaden before he’s healthy, no debate there. His value, which had peaked in December, has now cratered. No one knows what he’s going to look like when he returns. He looked pretty bad in his preseason game, but we subsequently found out he was still dealing with a leg problem (the other one, if I recall correctly). I’m speaking more of down the line. If Duren keeps playing like this, 30 is a given, and it could be more. If we start to struggle when Ivey is back, there will be inevitable finger-pointing. He’s going to be under quite a bit of pressure, which is unfortunate. I’m sure JBB will do a great job preparing him, but it’ll be up to Ivey to show his worth.

All fair, but yet and still, missing some context. Year 1, he was a rookie, struggles are expected. Year 2, he was coached by Monty Williams. Enough said. Throw the whole year away. Year 3, to your admission, you saw improvement but then his season got cut.

When I say he's not allowed to grow, I'm talking in the eyes of fans. He's not being given benefit of the doubt when you honestly think he could crater this defense when even Duncan Robinson isn't.

And I'm aware that the playoffs is when things get serious and weak defenders are exposed, which makes it even more odd you're making his return to be the time we would begin to slip. Making a defense take the ball out of bounds does wonders for your defense. You think Ivey could help increase those happenings?

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[ComboGuardCity]

The good news is we should have ample sample size to start make judgements rather than inferences in a few weeks.

[tmorgan]

Well,that’s a fair question then.

Is current (once he shakes off the rust) Jaden Ivey a better overall player than Duncan Robinson for this team as it stands right now?

The instinct is to immediately say “obviously yes”. But is that true? He’s obviously the more valuable player, with his age, upside and athleticism. But is he gonna add to the team’s chances this year? I think that’s a tougher question. Probably still yes (much better in transition, probably better defensively, hopefully close as a shooter, less experienced and heady as player, much better shot creator), but it’s still debatable unless the shooting improvement was real. We NEED shooting badly.

[DetroitSho]

Well,that’s a fair question then.

Is current (once he shakes off the rust) Jaden Ivey a better overall player than Duncan Robinson for this team as it stands right now?

The instinct is to immediately say “obviously yes”. But is that true? He’s obviously the more valuable player, with his age, upside and athleticism. But is he gonna add to the team’s chances this year? I think that’s a tougher question. Probably still yes (much better in transition, probably better defensively, hopefully close as a shooter, less experienced and heady as player, much better shot creator), but it’s still debatable unless the shooting improvement was real. We NEED shooting badly.

To your last sentence, ABSOFREAKINGLUTELY. We honestly have the potential to completely BURY teams but we miss too many of the back breaking 3s that would do it.

Sometimes our momentum is going and going, then we'll have a few possessions in a row where we miss wide open good shots. Instead if being up 16-17 with 7 minutes to go in the 4th, it's still just a manageable 7-8 point game. I can't hold my breath on it but fawk, if Beasley comes back this season......boy oh boy.

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[tmorgan]

Beasley is undoubtedly needed here. Badly. But I’m guessing it won’t happen this season. The NBA has a stink on it right now, and Beasley (if he is indeed mostly innocent here) is suffering for it.

[BadMofoPimp]

Beasley is undoubtedly needed here. Badly. But I’m guessing it won’t happen this season. The NBA has a stink on it right now, and Beasley (if he is indeed mostly innocent here) is suffering for it.

Makes ya wonder why he isn't denying it vehemently or fighting for a job.

[tmorgan]

Beasley is undoubtedly needed here. Badly. But I’m guessing it won’t happen this season. The NBA has a stink on it right now, and Beasley (if he is indeed mostly innocent here) is suffering for it.

Makes ya wonder why he isn't denying it vehemently or fighting for a job.

I’m pretty sure he gets in a lot of trouble with the Feds and the league if he talks about it directly.

[DetroitSho]

Beasley is undoubtedly needed here. Badly. But I’m guessing it won’t happen this season. The NBA has a stink on it right now, and Beasley (if he is indeed mostly innocent here) is suffering for it.

Makes ya wonder why he isn't denying it vehemently or fighting for a job.

What exactly do you want him to do? With all the posts and announcements he's made, I think he's done exactly this.

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[Kilo]

Ivey needs to prove healthy and I don't thinknhe can prove enough in 60 games this year to get him a RFA offer sheet of any magnitude. Given his injury history I also don't think he will risk signing QO. Get the life changing bag as a RFA from Pistons and work for UFA payday. Maybe try for a 3 yr vs 4 yr as your little bit of bet on yourself.

[zeebneeb]

Yeah, Beasley clearly wants to come to Detroit, and with him, the Pistons are the cream of the East. Now the team is lacking on experience, but Holy hell do they have everything with Beasley back.(not to mention Ivey

Killer defense. Killer POA defense.(×2) Elite PG play. Dominant rebounding. Excellent transition. Insane athleticism. Ridiculous depth. Its crazy whats been built.

As for the topic;

Perhaps an extension for Duren would have been wise, yes? Surely it would have been less then what the team is gonna have to pay him now...

[Kilo]

I don't mind waiting on Duren's extension. I am all for paying the player their worth rather than gambling on maybe getting a discount (and trapping player at less than fair value) vs they don't reach the value of the contract and become an albatross contract.

[Kilo]

I don't mind waiting on Duren's extension. I am all for paying the player their worth rather than gambling on maybe getting a discount (and trapping player at less than fair value) vs they don't reach the value of the contract and become an albatross contract.

[Kalamazoo317]

Perhaps an extension for Duren would have been wise, yes? Surely it would have been less then what the team is gonna have to pay him now...

Well, he was asking for $30 million/per. Even if he gets an All-Star nod, I'm not sure he's going to make *more* than that. Who's signing him to an offer sheet for more than that?