Are people lower on Cooper Flagg?

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FrodoBaggins
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#381 » by FrodoBaggins » Yesterday 3:22 pm

Ice Man wrote:
FrodoBaggins wrote:Tough game against a generational defense. Still, Cooper was able to put up 16 points, continue his good 2PT scoring (5/8, 62.5%), and get to the free-throw line (6/6).


Counting FTs and the charge that he was whistled for, Cooper scored 16 points on 12 attempts in the paint against OKC, which equates to 133 points per 100 possessions, which is unbeatably good.

And he scored 0 points on 3 shots outside the paint, which equates to 0 points per 100 possessions, which is unwinanbly bad. :wink:

His jump shot is so bad right now -- most aren't even close, they're both drifting wide and either too long or too short -- and his drives so effective, even against OKC's interior defense, that I think he's reached the stage where he shouldn't shoot at all from outside the paint. I mean, not once, not even to "keep the defense honest." After all, the defense is already sagging on him rather than challenging any of his jump shots, yet he's still bricking those shots and is highly effective on his drives. So, don't bother. Work, work, work on that jump shot outside of the games, and when it starts to seem more reliable, begin testing it under battle conditions.

As you might guess, I'm a big believer in having rookies play to their strengths. The NBA is a damn tough league -- best to start by having success where you can have success, then add to the repertoire with experience.

Agreed. Obviously, you want a three-point shot in the arsenal, and it should come in time. But I don't think it'd be "make or break" even if it doesn't. The way that his drives, rim scoring, non-RA paint touch, and short mid-range are developing gives him a legitimate avenue to a high-end offensive outcome. Like LeBron or Giannis-lite at the rim, but with a far superior 3-16 ft game with short jumpers and hook shots.

But I'm sure the three-ball will come around in time.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#382 » by Johnny Firpo » Yesterday 9:11 pm

FrodoBaggins wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
FrodoBaggins wrote:Tough game against a generational defense. Still, Cooper was able to put up 16 points, continue his good 2PT scoring (5/8, 62.5%), and get to the free-throw line (6/6).


Counting FTs and the charge that he was whistled for, Cooper scored 16 points on 12 attempts in the paint against OKC, which equates to 133 points per 100 possessions, which is unbeatably good.

And he scored 0 points on 3 shots outside the paint, which equates to 0 points per 100 possessions, which is unwinanbly bad. :wink:

His jump shot is so bad right now -- most aren't even close, they're both drifting wide and either too long or too short -- and his drives so effective, even against OKC's interior defense, that I think he's reached the stage where he shouldn't shoot at all from outside the paint. I mean, not once, not even to "keep the defense honest." After all, the defense is already sagging on him rather than challenging any of his jump shots, yet he's still bricking those shots and is highly effective on his drives. So, don't bother. Work, work, work on that jump shot outside of the games, and when it starts to seem more reliable, begin testing it under battle conditions.

As you might guess, I'm a big believer in having rookies play to their strengths. The NBA is a damn tough league -- best to start by having success where you can have success, then add to the repertoire with experience.

Agreed. Obviously, you want a three-point shot in the arsenal, and it should come in time. But I don't think it'd be "make or break" even if it doesn't. The way that his drives, rim scoring, non-RA paint touch, and short mid-range are developing gives him a legitimate avenue to a high-end offensive outcome. Like LeBron or Giannis-lite at the rim, but with a far superior 3-16 ft game with short jumpers and hook shots.

But I'm sure the three-ball will come around in time.
Honestly, I'm not worried about his three ball at all. I think it's entirely mental at this point, he is thinking about it too much, you can see it when he hesitates on wide open shots and often dribbles into traffic. He just does not trust this three ball and it shows. But seeing his mid range, his free throw shooting and general shooting motion, and also his college shooting, I'm not worried at all.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#383 » by scrabbarista » Yesterday 10:43 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:
FrodoBaggins wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
Counting FTs and the charge that he was whistled for, Cooper scored 16 points on 12 attempts in the paint against OKC, which equates to 133 points per 100 possessions, which is unbeatably good.

And he scored 0 points on 3 shots outside the paint, which equates to 0 points per 100 possessions, which is unwinanbly bad. :wink:

His jump shot is so bad right now -- most aren't even close, they're both drifting wide and either too long or too short -- and his drives so effective, even against OKC's interior defense, that I think he's reached the stage where he shouldn't shoot at all from outside the paint. I mean, not once, not even to "keep the defense honest." After all, the defense is already sagging on him rather than challenging any of his jump shots, yet he's still bricking those shots and is highly effective on his drives. So, don't bother. Work, work, work on that jump shot outside of the games, and when it starts to seem more reliable, begin testing it under battle conditions.

As you might guess, I'm a big believer in having rookies play to their strengths. The NBA is a damn tough league -- best to start by having success where you can have success, then add to the repertoire with experience.

Agreed. Obviously, you want a three-point shot in the arsenal, and it should come in time. But I don't think it'd be "make or break" even if it doesn't. The way that his drives, rim scoring, non-RA paint touch, and short mid-range are developing gives him a legitimate avenue to a high-end offensive outcome. Like LeBron or Giannis-lite at the rim, but with a far superior 3-16 ft game with short jumpers and hook shots.

But I'm sure the three-ball will come around in time.
Honestly, I'm not worried about his three ball at all. I think it's entirely mental at this point, he is thinking about it too much, you can see it when he hesitates on wide open shots and often dribbles into traffic. He just does not trust this three ball and it shows. But seeing his mid range, his free throw shooting and general shooting motion, and also his college shooting, I'm not worried at all.


Yeah, the free throws and just his general skill-development trajectory are good signs for his three. It'll come, sooner or later.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#384 » by og15 » Yesterday 11:02 pm

FrodoBaggins wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
FrodoBaggins wrote:Tough game against a generational defense. Still, Cooper was able to put up 16 points, continue his good 2PT scoring (5/8, 62.5%), and get to the free-throw line (6/6).


Counting FTs and the charge that he was whistled for, Cooper scored 16 points on 12 attempts in the paint against OKC, which equates to 133 points per 100 possessions, which is unbeatably good.

And he scored 0 points on 3 shots outside the paint, which equates to 0 points per 100 possessions, which is unwinanbly bad. :wink:

His jump shot is so bad right now -- most aren't even close, they're both drifting wide and either too long or too short -- and his drives so effective, even against OKC's interior defense, that I think he's reached the stage where he shouldn't shoot at all from outside the paint. I mean, not once, not even to "keep the defense honest." After all, the defense is already sagging on him rather than challenging any of his jump shots, yet he's still bricking those shots and is highly effective on his drives. So, don't bother. Work, work, work on that jump shot outside of the games, and when it starts to seem more reliable, begin testing it under battle conditions.

As you might guess, I'm a big believer in having rookies play to their strengths. The NBA is a damn tough league -- best to start by having success where you can have success, then add to the repertoire with experience.

Agreed. Obviously, you want a three-point shot in the arsenal, and it should come in time. But I don't think it'd be "make or break" even if it doesn't. The way that his drives, rim scoring, non-RA paint touch, and short mid-range are developing gives him a legitimate avenue to a high-end offensive outcome. Like LeBron or Giannis-lite at the rim, but with a far superior 3-16 ft game with short jumpers and hook shots.

But I'm sure the three-ball will come around in time.

He's attempting them and isn't scared to shoot and is working on it, that's good enough for me.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#385 » by tmorgan » Yesterday 11:46 pm

Given the odd roster he’s on, Flagg’s season is going pretty much as I expected. Slightly worse, I suppose, due to his atrocious three point shooting.

Nothing I’d worry about. Still no question in my mind other than All-Star level, All-NBA level, or maybe MVP level? He turns 19 in two weeks.

Given what we’ve seen of his mental makeup, all this losing is just going to make him hungrier and tougher.

As for the inevitable Luka comparisons, remember that Luka turned 20 in February of his rookie year. So Flagg entered the league ten months younger, and won’t be past the age Luka was for his first game until the start of his second season. He’s going to get a lot stronger, which will make a big difference, particularly on offense.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#386 » by FrodoBaggins » Today 5:06 am

A great all-round performance from Cooper tonight. One of Dallas' best wins. This is the type of long, versatile lineup (Flagg, Marshall, Washington, Davis) they were trying to make happen, but lacked PG play + Davis at center. This is the preferred "big" lineup with Lively out indefinitely. Bring Gafford off the bench.

- 36 minutes played
- 19 points (6/13 2PT, 1/2 3PT, 4/4 FT), 5 rebounds (1 off), 3 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks, 0 turnovers
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#387 » by atlantabbq99 » Today 5:10 am

Another bad performance from Flagg. 19pts on really bad shooting numbers and on defense he got schooled by both KD and Jabari all game long.

Good thing AD was their to bail the whole team out.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#388 » by Johnny Firpo » Today 9:00 am

atlantabbq99 wrote:Another bad performance from Flagg. 19pts on really bad shooting numbers and on defense he got schooled by both KD and Jabari all game long.

Good thing AD was their to bail the whole team out.
I assume you are being sarcastic, right? RIGHT?
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#389 » by KokoKaizer » Today 9:04 am

Johnny Firpo wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:Another bad performance from Flagg. 19pts on really bad shooting numbers and on defense he got schooled by both KD and Jabari all game long.

Good thing AD was their to bail the whole team out.
I assume you are being sarcastic, right? RIGHT?


It has to be

The kid is playing good at the moment
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#390 » by DuallyNoted » Today 9:07 am

He's not must watch TV and when you watch him he kinda sucks. It's not that hard, he's less interesting than anticipating a Ben Simmons 3 pointer.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#391 » by tsherkin » Today 9:59 am

DuallyNoted wrote:He's not must watch TV and when you watch him he kinda sucks. It's not that hard, he's less interesting than anticipating a Ben Simmons 3 pointer.


Literally none of what you just wrote is accurate.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#392 » by bonita_the_frog » Today 11:24 am

Cooper Flagg is the closest thing we've seen to Grant Hill, and Grant Hill is the 2nd most entertaining player I've ever seen footage of.

And Cooper Flagg is currently averaging 17.3 points on .475 shooting, and those numbers have been going up every week of the season... so he's headed for a 20ppg rookie season on about 50% shooting.

I know he's from a different era, but LeBron averaged 20.9 points on .417 shooting in his rookie season, and Durant 20.3 points on .430 shooting.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#393 » by doogie_hauser » Today 11:28 am

DuallyNoted wrote:He's not must watch TV and when you watch him he kinda sucks. It's not that hard, he's less interesting than anticipating a Ben Simmons 3 pointer.


Bitter Bulls fan.

Must suck you would have had Copper had you not lost the tie breaker coin toss with The Mavs last lotto lol
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#394 » by Ice Man » Today 11:45 am

Cooper is just what I expected for his rookie season... a starting quality two-way NBA wing, niot an All Star. That's as good as it gets for a teenager, he will be an All Star, either next year or year after.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#395 » by Moose » Today 11:45 am

doogie_hauser wrote:
DuallyNoted wrote:He's not must watch TV and when you watch him he kinda sucks. It's not that hard, he's less interesting than anticipating a Ben Simmons 3 pointer.


Bitter Bulls fan.

Must suck you would have had Copper had you not lost the tie breaker coin toss with The Mavs last lotto lol


Imagine if a Knicks fan would be unimpressed by Steph Curry lol

Instead, we simply acknowledge the greatness by wanting to throw ourselves against a brick wall
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#396 » by Ice Man » Today 12:27 pm

As a side note, if you value modern analytics (you don't have to, just saying), Cooper's game from last night is better than the traditional stats would seem to indicate. A night of 19/5/3 looks, eh, OK through the traditional lens. But if you add in 4 stocks and 0 TOs, it becomes quite good.

Thus, on basketball-reference's Game Score statistic, that game scored slightly higher than Cooper's 24/8 game against Denver, which looks & sounds a lot better when using the traditional mindset.

Throughout Flagg's career, the discussions will be similar as with (yep) Jimmy Butler. Flagg's raw numbers will be high, but not stratospheric, so the argument for (or against) him will be 1) about his the value of his defense & low-mistake style of play, and 2) the effect he has on his team's success.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#397 » by Blame Rasho » 15 minutes ago

This thread will be an interesting bump in 5 to 7 years me thinks.

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