Are people lower on Cooper Flagg?

[jokeboy86]

He's not must watch TV and when you watch him he kinda sucks. It's not that hard, he's less interesting than anticipating a Ben Simmons 3 pointer.

Literally none of what you just wrote is accurate.

The Billy Madison meme would have been perfect here.

[MavsDirk41]

As a side note, if you value modern analytics (you don't have to, just saying), Cooper's game from last night is better than the traditional stats would seem to indicate. A night of 19/5/3 looks, eh, OK through the traditional lens. But if you add in 4 stocks and 0 TOs, it becomes quite good.

Thus, on basketball-reference's Game Score statistic, that game scored slightly higher than Cooper's 24/8 game against Denver, which looks & sounds a lot better when using the traditional mindset.

Throughout Flagg's career, the discussions will be similar as with (yep) Jimmy Butler. Flagg's raw numbers will be high, but not stratospheric, so the argument for (or against) him will be 1) about his the value of his defense & low-mistake style of play, and 2) the effect he has on his team's success.

Wait until he works on his 3 point game this summer. I expect a huge leap from him next season.

[firedavidkahn]

What Flagg is doing is spectacular. He's putting up ROY numbers as an 18 year old.

[username_taken]

Once the three starts falling there isn’t much to question. He has lived up to the lofty defensive expectations I had for him as a rookie thus far

[bonita_the_frog]

I've never felt better in my life.

[jscott]

What Flagg is doing is spectacular. He's putting up ROY numbers as an 18 year old.

He’s 2 weeks from turning 19.

The last 6 ROYs have been 20 or younger.

Not sure that’s the kind of gotcha stat you think it is.

[Duke4life831]

What Flagg is doing is spectacular. He's putting up ROY numbers as an 18 year old.

He’s 2 weeks from turning 19.

The last 6 ROYs have been 20 or younger.

Not sure that’s the kind of gotcha stat you think it is.

Castle was a full year older than Flagg
Wemby was just shy of 12 months older than Flagg
Paolo was a full year older than Flagg
Barnes was a full year older than Flagg
Morant was a full year older than Flagg

So 4 out of the last 6 were all at least 1 year older, and it would be 5 if Wemby was 2 weeks older.

1 year is a pretty significant difference when talking 18, 19, 20 year olds. Not just from a skill development standpoint, but from a physical one.

[firedavidkahn]

What Flagg is doing is spectacular. He's putting up ROY numbers as an 18 year old.

He’s 2 weeks from turning 19.

The last 6 ROYs have been 20 or younger.

Not sure that’s the kind of gotcha stat you think it is.

Dude... He is a positive ALL AROUND player at 18 years old who might end up averaging around 20ppg by the end of the year.

How isn't that impressive? He's already a positive contributor on both ends of the floor.

[jscott]

What Flagg is doing is spectacular. He's putting up ROY numbers as an 18 year old.

He’s 2 weeks from turning 19.

The last 6 ROYs have been 20 or younger.

Not sure that’s the kind of gotcha stat you think it is.

Dude... He is a positive ALL AROUND player at 18 years old who might end up averaging around 20ppg by the end of the year.

How isn't that impressive? He's already a positive contributor on both ends of the floor.

That’s not what you said though.

You said he is putting up ROY numbers at 18 which is in basically what all ROYs do. And since he’s about to turn 19, literally 6 of the last 6 ROYs have put up ROY numbers at that age.

Had you put in numbers like “might end up averaging 20ppg by the end of the year” then you’re saying something, but saying he’s putting up ROY numbers as a rookie is like “no ****.” He was the #1 pick and thus favorite to be ROY.

Or if he was putting up all-star numbers or whatever, that’s rare, but ROY numbers - you’re not saying much, if anything, with that statement.

[Drakeem]

He’s 2 weeks from turning 19.

The last 6 ROYs have been 20 or younger.

Not sure that’s the kind of gotcha stat you think it is.

Dude... He is a positive ALL AROUND player at 18 years old who might end up averaging around 20ppg by the end of the year.

How isn't that impressive? He's already a positive contributor on both ends of the floor.

That’s not what you said though.

You said he is putting up ROY numbers at 18 which is in basically what all ROYs do. And since he’s about to turn 19, literally 6 of the last 6 ROYs have put up ROY numbers at that age.

Had you put in numbers like “might end up averaging 20ppg by the end of the year” then you’re saying something, but saying he’s putting up ROY numbers as a rookie is like “no ****.” He was the #1 pick and thus favorite to be ROY.

Or if he was putting up all-star numbers or whatever, that’s rare, but ROY numbers - you’re not saying much, if anything, with that statement.

I mean, a post right above yours went into detail about how he's pretty much a full year younger than most of the ROTYs in recent memory. That's kinda the main point. Feels like you're arguing semantics or a poorly constructed sentence over the point just bc.

[firedavidkahn]

Dude... He is a positive ALL AROUND player at 18 years old who might end up averaging around 20ppg by the end of the year.

How isn't that impressive? He's already a positive contributor on both ends of the floor.

That’s not what you said though.

You said he is putting up ROY numbers at 18 which is in basically what all ROYs do. And since he’s about to turn 19, literally 6 of the last 6 ROYs have put up ROY numbers at that age.

Had you put in numbers like “might end up averaging 20ppg by the end of the year” then you’re saying something, but saying he’s putting up ROY numbers as a rookie is like “no ****.” He was the #1 pick and thus favorite to be ROY.

Or if he was putting up all-star numbers or whatever, that’s rare, but ROY numbers - you’re not saying much, if anything, with that statement.

I mean, a post right above yours went into detail about how he's pretty much a full year younger than most of the ROTYs in recent memory. That's kinda the main point. Feels like you're arguing semantics or a poorly constructed sentence over the point just bc.

He is trying so hard to crap on Flagg.

He's younger than most ROYs AND putting up better numbers

[tsherkin]

You said he is putting up ROY numbers at 18 which is in basically what all ROYs do.

No, it isn't. Unless you consider the raw averages the only elements of consideration here. But even then.

There are 6 guys who won the ROY at 19. So right off the bat, that is definitely not most. Of those, two of them were Shaq and Lebron, two of the craziest athletic specimens in league history. Lebron wasn't a stunningly positive defender and WAS an inefficient volume scorer. KD put up nice averages on crap efficiency, and was certainly no monster on D. Kyrie played in a lockout season, wasn't good on D, but was a fantastic offensive weapon. Wiggins sucked. Luka was a weak defender who produced big averages on inefficient scoring (evident potential, just that first year is usually rough for basically anyone). Luka was also 19 at the START of the season. Other than Wiggins, Ball was the worst scorer as a rookie 19 yo en route to ROY, and not at all a good defender. Marvelous playmaker, but again, also only played 51 games like Kyrie. Shaq, of course, was a demon. He had the best shot-blocking season of his career as a rookie.

So yes, this is pretty notable because it puts Flagg in some very impressive company... and he's still younger than all of them.

Yeah, there are a bunch of ROYs now who are fairly young because the league is filled with 1-and-dones, so that's an inevitability of sample size. The best guys from college come out earlier, so they're younger. Duh. That doesn't make it any less impressive that still not yet 19, Flagg is playing a better two-way game than any of them except Shaq, and is doing rather well offensively overall.

[jscott]

That’s not what you said though.

You said he is putting up ROY numbers at 18 which is in basically what all ROYs do. And since he’s about to turn 19, literally 6 of the last 6 ROYs have put up ROY numbers at that age.

Had you put in numbers like “might end up averaging 20ppg by the end of the year” then you’re saying something, but saying he’s putting up ROY numbers as a rookie is like “no ****.” He was the #1 pick and thus favorite to be ROY.

Or if he was putting up all-star numbers or whatever, that’s rare, but ROY numbers - you’re not saying much, if anything, with that statement.

I mean, a post right above yours went into detail about how he's pretty much a full year younger than most of the ROTYs in recent memory. That's kinda the main point. Feels like you're arguing semantics or a poorly constructed sentence over the point just bc.

He is trying so hard to crap on Flagg.

He's younger than most ROYs AND putting up better numbers

Not trying to crap on Flagg. I’m a fan.

I’m saying your initial statement didn’t really provide any context/information which now you (and a few others) have done. That’s what should have been posted initially not just “he’s putting up ROY numbers” which should be the assumption of the #1 pick.

This thread is called “Are people lower on Cooper Flagg” and you provided no content/information which didn’t really help anyone.

But that’s fine, clearly others think differently and I’ll leave it be.

[jscott]

You said he is putting up ROY numbers at 18 which is in basically what all ROYs do.

No, it isn't. Unless you consider the raw averages the only elements of consideration here. But even then.

There are 6 guys who won the ROY at 19. So right off the bat, that is definitely not most. Of those, two of them were Shaq and Lebron, two of the craziest athletic specimens in league history. Lebron wasn't a stunningly positive defender and WAS an inefficient volume scorer. KD put up nice averages on crap efficiency, and was certainly no monster on D. Kyrie played in a lockout season, wasn't good on D, but was a fantastic offensive weapon. Wiggins sucked. Luka was a weak defender who produced big averages on inefficient scoring (evident potential, just that first year is usually rough for basically anyone). Luka was also 19 at the START of the season. Other than Wiggins, Ball was the worst scorer as a rookie 19 yo en route to ROY, and not at all a good defender. Marvelous playmaker, but again, also only played 51 games like Kyrie. Shaq, of course, was a demon. He had the best shot-blocking season of his career as a rookie.

So yes, this is pretty notable because it puts Flagg in some very impressive company... and he's still younger than all of them.

Yeah, there are a bunch of ROYs now who are fairly young because the league is filled with 1-and-dones, so that's an inevitability of sample size. The best guys from college come out earlier, so they're younger. Duh. That doesn't make it any less impressive that still not yet 19, Flagg is playing a better two-way game than any of them except Shaq, and is doing rather well offensively overall.

That’s my point though, putting up “ROY numbers” at that age (basically 19) as the #1 pick you’re expected to put up ROY numbers.

I also never mentioned “most” anything for ROYs - not sure what you’re trying to do/prove there.

But whatever, as I said above, I’ll leave it be. You guys do you. As I mentioned, I’m a fan of Flagg, I just think these drive by posts with no actual content aren’t that useful.

[tsherkin]

That’s my point though, putting up “ROY numbers” at that age (basically 19) as the #1 pick you’re expected to put up ROY numbers.

There's more to it, though, which other posters have explained. It's the defensive value, and the stats beyond the raw averages which were being discussed when you made your initial remark. That's why there's pushback, because that's the area which is really impressive for a guy his age.

Guys positioned to ROY come in and are given opportunities, and they frequently end up posting raw numbers. That in and of itself isn't surprising, it's the impact and efficacy at either end which are remarkable for his age. Particularly since he's younger than the other guys.

[jscott]

That’s my point though, putting up “ROY numbers” at that age (basically 19) as the #1 pick you’re expected to put up ROY numbers.

There's more to it, though, which other posters have explained. It's the defensive value, and the stats beyond the raw averages which were being discussed when you made your initial remark. That's why there's pushback, because that's the area which is really impressive for a guy his age.

Guys positioned to ROY come in and are given opportunities, and they frequently end up posting raw numbers. That in and of itself isn't surprising, it's the impact and efficacy at either end which are remarkable for his age. Particularly since he's younger than the other guys.

Right but he didn’t mention any of those things which again is my point.

“ROY numbers” have a wide range from LBJ to MCW.

[tsherkin]

That’s my point though, putting up “ROY numbers” at that age (basically 19) as the #1 pick you’re expected to put up ROY numbers.

There's more to it, though, which other posters have explained. It's the defensive value, and the stats beyond the raw averages which were being discussed when you made your initial remark. That's why there's pushback, because that's the area which is really impressive for a guy his age.

Guys positioned to ROY come in and are given opportunities, and they frequently end up posting raw numbers. That in and of itself isn't surprising, it's the impact and efficacy at either end which are remarkable for his age. Particularly since he's younger than the other guys.

Right but he didn’t mention any of those things which again is my point.

“ROY numbers” have a wide range from LBJ to MCW.

Sure, but the conversation has focused on all kinds of different elements of his performance. It was implied. For someone who's a fan, you seem to be fighting the positive remark pretty hard.

[jscott]

There's more to it, though, which other posters have explained. It's the defensive value, and the stats beyond the raw averages which were being discussed when you made your initial remark. That's why there's pushback, because that's the area which is really impressive for a guy his age.

Guys positioned to ROY come in and are given opportunities, and they frequently end up posting raw numbers. That in and of itself isn't surprising, it's the impact and efficacy at either end which are remarkable for his age. Particularly since he's younger than the other guys.

Right but he didn’t mention any of those things which again is my point.

“ROY numbers” have a wide range from LBJ to MCW.

Sure, but the conversation has focused on all kinds of different elements of his performance. It was implied. For someone who's a fan, you seem to be fighting the positive remark pretty hard.

I am not arguing he’s not worth the praise. I said his argument/information was weak and I’ve been put in a position to defend that statement. Thats all you’re seeing out of me.

Again, let me reiterate, I am a fan of Flagg and think he’ll be good but the statement of “he’s putting up ROY numbers” and that’s it doesn’t carry much weight in a discussion.

[Ayt]

Right but he didn’t mention any of those things which again is my point.

“ROY numbers” have a wide range from LBJ to MCW.

Sure, but the conversation has focused on all kinds of different elements of his performance. It was implied. For someone who's a fan, you seem to be fighting the positive remark pretty hard.

I am not arguing he’s not worth the praise. I said his argument/information was weak and I’ve been put in a position to defend that statement. Thats all you’re seeing out of me.

Again, let me reiterate, I am a fan of Flagg and think he’ll be good but the statement of “he’s putting up ROY numbers” and that’s it doesn’t carry much weight in a discussion.

I'd say the issue is that you are discounting his age. He's not "basically 19" as you put it in a previous post. As was pointed out, he's a full year younger than most of the guys you were comparing him to. One year of development is massive when you are only 18 or 19.

To put it another way, many of the 19-year-old ROY winners that have been listed would not have played ROY level ball if they had entered the NBA at 18 instead.

[tsherkin]

Sure, but the conversation has focused on all kinds of different elements of his performance. It was implied. For someone who's a fan, you seem to be fighting the positive remark pretty hard.

I am not arguing he’s not worth the praise. I said his argument/information was weak and I’ve been put in a position to defend that statement. Thats all you’re seeing out of me.

Again, let me reiterate, I am a fan of Flagg and think he’ll be good but the statement of “he’s putting up ROY numbers” and that’s it doesn’t carry much weight in a discussion.

I'd say the issue is that you are discounting his age. He's not "basically 19" as you put it in a previous post. As was pointed out, he's a full year younger than most of the guys you were comparing him to. One year of development is massive when you are only 18 or 19.

To put it another way, many of the 19-year-old ROY winners that have been listed would not have played ROY level ball if they had entered the NBA at 18 instead.

There isn't really a point in arguing. He popped in to make an argument about a complimentary comment about Flagg for no real reason, so we should all probably just move on to discussing things of relevance and substance at this point pertaining to Flagg's performance.