Trading Redd Is Not The Way

[paul]

If you accept max money, you accept the responsibility of putting a team on your back. I sure hope nobody's wasting time feeling sorry for Michael Redd.

average salaries going forward

Michael Redd - $17 million

Rip Hamilton - $11 million
Kevin Martin - $10 million
Manu Ginobili - $10 million
Mike Miller - $9.5 million
Ben Gordon - ???

Redd makes 50% more money than his peers. He isn't paid to be a scorer, because the market rates for scorers is clearly around $10-11 million a year. He's paid to be a Tim Duncan/Kobe Bryant/Lebron James type guy.
-= original quote snipped =-

Lebron got to the finals by himself. Kobe got to the playoffs with just Odom, and he certainly could have done the same with Mo and Bogut.

Has the team done a poor job putting good players around Redd? Yes. But Redd's salary is a HUGE part of the problem. If Michael Redd made the $10 million that he's worth, we would have had an extra $5 million in cap space last summer, and could have picked up Gerald Wallace. Easily.

I don't want to hear about how it "isn't" Redd's salary that prevents players from being picked up. Every player who accepts more than they're worth prevents the team from reaching the average overall talent level of the league.

Great post.

I don't think Redd's the problem and i do think he's our best player right now, but i certainly don't feel sorry for a guy who's clearly overpaid being on a crap team, that's what happens to most guys who are clearly overpaid.
Everyone rips Bogut because he's not a great #1 pick but he didn't ask to be picked #1, Redd did ask for max money so he likewise deserves to be compared with max money players straight up.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Bogut did too ask to be picked #1. He showed up with a suit on and brought his resume.

[paul]

Bogut did too ask to be picked #1. He showed up with a suit on and brought his resume.

ahhh the suit

Maybe saying he didn't ask is the wrong wording, he couldn't demand to leave if they didn't pick him, hows that? My point is if we can rip Bogut purely based on the fact that the Bucks chose to make him #1 instead of #10 where he'd be a good pick, we can certainly compare Redd to guys who make max given they were scared he'd walk if they didn't give it to him. Redd is our best player, but he takes up a huge amount of cap and i'd be interested to see a comparison with other max guys in the league.

[paul]

LeBron's team is WAY better then the Bucks. Kobe's Lakers are also better then the Bucks. Theres not a single player in the League that is making as much as Redd with a worse team.

Snow, Gibson/Hughes, Gooden and Z are a WAY better supporting cast than Mo, Simmons/Dez, Yi/CV and Bogut in your opinion?

[europa]

-= original quote snipped =-



I think that is a valid point....most every team has some crappy contracts.....the only ones that don't are the teams with super-duperstars than can afford to be more picky....or maybe those teams have their cap entirely dominated by a star like Kobe so they are fiscally prevented from the opportunity to screw things up by overpaying a Bobby Simmons or Gadz........

If we have $13mm of cap room last summer we could have gotten Billups and made that cap absorbing trade for Marion. Billups and Marion would qualify as "help" for Redd IMO. Michael partly has himself to blame for his lack of help. Primarily it is the team's fault, but Redd has a hand in this as well with his contract.

If the Bucks weren't paying $26M in dead weight and hadn't decided they were going to pay much more for Mo than they had to, they would've had the money to make a run at other players in free agency last season. You're right, most teams do have some bad contracts but take a good look at most of the good teams in this league - you won't find too many of them shelling out $6M a year for players of Gadz's caliber or $5M a year for players of Dez's caliber and so forth. Or what Simmons is getting.

Once again, if you're going to start with salaries and where to place the blame when it comes to signing better players, that's where you need to begin.

As far as the original post from the Celitcs fan, it's an excellent one but two things: 1) I highly doubt Colangelo brings back Villanueva. He was smart enough to rid his team of him; I see no reason why he'd want to bring back a player his team doesn't need or miss. 2) The Hawks wouldn't trade for Mo in all probability. They didn't want him as a free agent and I doubt they'd have any interest in him given how Law is now a big part of their future plans.

Back to Redd, I was quite impressed with how the Bucks played without him last night. Clearly, this is a team that doesn't need him at all. I definitely think trading him will solve all of this team's problems. Keep those ideas of trading Redd for crap coming. I think last night showed conclusively how insignificant Michael Redd is to this team.

[paul]

Back to Redd, I was quite impressed with how the Bucks played without him last night. Clearly, this is a team that doesn't need him at all. I definitely think trading him will solve all of this team's problems. Keep those ideas of trading Redd for crap coming. I think last night showed conclusively how insignificant Michael Redd is to this team.

Like you Europa I'm hoping those 'trade Redd for cap space and filler' threads will finally disappear after last nights horrible showing.

[jeremyd236]

-= original quote snipped =-



Like you Europa I'm hoping those 'trade Redd for cap space and filler' threads will finally disappear after last nights horrible showing.

Forget last night, what about last season? 3-19 without Redd. That's terrible. Trading Mo is what we should do. He's supposed to be the point guard.

[paulpressey25]

-= Like you Europa I'm hoping those 'trade Redd for cap space and filler' threads will finally disappear after last nights horrible showing.

Why? Mo Williams clearly established himself as the team's best player last night.....

[paul]

-= original quote snipped =-



Forget last night, what about last season? 3-19 without Redd. That's terrible. Trading Mo is what we should do. He's supposed to be the point guard.

Yeah I've never wanted to trade Redd for crap and cap space because i don't think this team is offensively talented enough without him, i'm just hoping last night made some other people realise that. If Redd is being traded it needs to be for a big return.

[europa]

-= original quote snipped =-



Like you Europa I'm hoping those 'trade Redd for cap space and filler' threads will finally disappear after last nights horrible showing.

They won't. The ReddHate has reached epic and absurd proportions in this forum unfortunately.

I'm at the point where I'm fine with trading Redd or anyone else on this team - including Yi and Bogut. This team is so absolutely brutal that it's become a joke. But I also don't want to see a massive rebuilding project either. I'm sick of the endless trips to the lottery (3 in the last 5 years is more than enough for me) and I'm sick of young players and their alleged potential. I want to see proven vets with proven ability on this team. If that means trading every last one of them for a proven vet at their position I'm all for it.

So I'm fine with trading Redd right now and frankly I think it might be inevitable given this sinking ship of a team. It's certainly not all his fault and on the list of this team's problems he's so far down the list it's ridiculous. But something needs to be done and so I wouldn't be surprised if he's dealt. I'd just prefer such a trade brought back at least one proven player instead of crap and more youth.

[paul]

-= original quote snipped =-



Why? Mo Williams clearly established himself as the team's best player last night.....

hmm there's something i don't yet know about the green font isn't there....

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Two questions for you Europa.

1. Can you please explain how the amount of money we gave Mo impacted our ability to sign others last summer?

2. How much would Redd have to be paid before you would have a problem with it?

[carmelbrownqueen]

This is from a Celtics fan's point of view.

I think Yi, Bogut, and Redd are the guys you keep. Redd and Yi is a good shooting duo at 2 very different positions. It offers nice balance. Bogut is a good miscelaneous skilled center that can give you hustle... and a bit of offense and defense.

What you guys need is a power 3. A marion type to help rebound and defend the opposing team's scoring wing. that way redd's and yi's weaknesses dont get exploited.

Also, Mo Williams is not the answer at point. You need a winner, someone like an Andre Miller that really knows how to run a team.

You trade Mo Williams to Atlanta (who is a point gaurd away from being a really good team) for Josh CHildress (they've been tyring to move him, glut at the wing).....................And you trade Villanueva for Calderon (Toronto is thin up front, no pun intended).

Calderon (pass first PG with lots of toughness)
Redd (go to guy, deadly shooter)
Childress (hits the glass, good finisher, good defender, long and athletic)
Yi (second option... good shooter from inside the arc)
Bogut (the enforcer down low, rebounder, low post presence)


Its not flashy, ibut I think that team would play very well. Assume you're playing the Celtics... just as a benchmark. You'd have Calderon on Rondo, Redd on Ray, Childress defending Pierce, Yi challenging Garnett outside, and Bogut banging with Perk down low. Balance.

Thanks for the input, but you are wasting your breath trying to tell these guys that Redd isn't the guy to be traded. I don't disagree with the premise that we need to make a trade, and I agree if we could get our hands on a "productive" scoring/rebounding 3 man to help Desmond Mason out (he would be our backup to who ever we get) would be optimal.. however that's not what most of this board wants.

Mo Williams has shown some growth as a point guard this season.. is he ideally a pass first guy? No, but I'm not sure there is a guy like that available that other teams are willing to give up on the cheap. Meaning without us having to give up guys like Redd, Bogut or Yi to get that player...I would be willing to move Dan Gadzuric, Charlie Villianueve, Bobby Simmons, and possibly Charlie Bell to help this team. We need a productive bench and right now we don't have that. My fear is that no one in the league wants any of these guys because none of them have shown much this season. Perhaps Charlie Bell can pull it back together.. I don't know, but we need help from all of those positions.

Also concerning Josh Childress, it sounded as if the Bucks might have tried to get him this summer, and Atlanta was asking for too much. As I have said before, I would like to see the Bucks go after Damien Wilkens and Chris Wilcox of Seattle. With Seattle trying to build around Durant and Green.. those two are expendable guys. Perhaps having CV and whatever other scrap they are interested in from this team could be helpful to them.

[Chapter29]

Redd is our best player. Losing him is huge.

Redd also being our best player means you build around him, not the other way around. So if our backcourt players don't compliment each other well, it really imo means that Mo doesn't fit in with Redd.

Now, I am not opposed to trading Redd, but it certainly wont be for cap space and a pick or something. We need talent. Redd for TMAC? OK well now we are talking. It is an arguable trade, but at the very least we get a different look with a pretty potent offensive player.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Sorry but your team doesn't need anymore talent that requires touches and shots. You already have that in Redd and Yi... and occasionally Bogut.

The Bucks need a distributor that keeps turnovers low and passion high. They also need a good wing defender that can rebound. Villanueva is a good player, but has no place on the team with Yi there. Yi will never be a 3, he doesnt move quick enough laterally. Imagine him defending Marion, Pierce, or Mello?

Good observations. And I tend to agree with you...

[europa]

Two questions for you Europa.

1. Can you please explain how the amount of money we gave Mo impacted our ability to sign others last summer?

2. How much would Redd have to be paid before you would have a problem with it?

1. The Bucks could have renounced Mo and made a strong run at either Billups or Wallace. GAD has explained that many times. The bottom line is it was clear Kohl and his cronies had it in their minds they were going to spend a lot of money on Mo - much more than they needed to as it turned out - and when you've decided to commit nearly $9M a year to Mo on top of the other bad contracts you have, that doesn't leave room for another big contract.

2. Again, Redd is overpaid. I've never at any point argued that he isn't. But on a team with $26M being devoted to garbage and nearly $9M a year being devoted to Mo, I simply don't believe Redd's contract is the primary issue. People can argue this team isn't going to win with Redd having a Max deal. That may be correct. But I absolutely positively guarantee you this team isn't going to win spending $26M on the players it's spending that money on.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Sorry twirl, I don't think he's that far off.

I wouldn't mind getting Calderon, but I highly doubt CV gets it done. Who cares about the PR embarrassment? The goal is to improve the team.

I think it might be too soon to move Redd. He's become too much of a scapegoat, and I think we should just wait until new leadership comes through before we make a move in that regard.

Our bench sucks. And it will continue to suck, regardless of Redd being here or not. Either LK's not getting through and never will, or LK's getting through will take some time.

Too soon to make rash decisions, I think.

[paul]

-= original quote snipped =-



1. The Bucks could have renounced Mo and made a strong run at either Billups or Wallace. GAD has explained that many times. The bottom line is it was clear Kohl and his cronies had it in their minds they were going to spend a lot of money on Mo - much more than they needed to as it turned out - and when you've decided to commit nearly $9M a year to Mo on top of the other bad contracts you have, that doesn't leave room for another big contract.

2. Again, Redd is overpaid. I've never at any point argued that he isn't. But on a team with $26M being devoted to garbage and nearly $9M a year being devoted to Mo, I simply don't believe Redd's contract is the primary issue. People can argue this team isn't going to win with Redd having a Max deal. That may be correct. But I absolutely positively guarantee you this team isn't going to win spending $26M on the players it's spending that money on.

I know it's OT a little bit, but watching the Miami game on LP the miami commentators were almost giggling when they said that Mo stayed at the bucks because they offered him $20m more for one more year than the miami offer sheet. Seriously they were sniggering, it was embarrassing.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Redd made a big mistake not signing with Cleveland. Him and Lebron would be dominating together, instead he's stuck in a miserable situation where he's the scape goat of a very bad team.

And I'm sure he has thought the very same thing every day this season..probably last season also.

[Ill-yasova]

-= original quote snipped =-



Mo has actually done a fine job distributing this year. Both are bad on defense. However fans will burn down the Bradley Center (which may not be the worst thing in the world) if we trade CV back to Toronto for Ford's BACKUP. That's the point, it's not happening.

Sometimes though you just have to swallow your pride and do what is best for the team, public image be damned. It's better to admit a mistake and fix it, rather than to let it fester on your bench a few more years and get nothing in return. Plus the thing that you are not taking into account is the fact that the at this point people are pretty much blacking the bucks out of their minds. Nobody would even realize a trade had been made til next season.