Bucks-Jazz Postgame Thread 1/14/08

[75totheMACCfund]

i'd like to start a thread to discuss Mo's Bball IQ...he just doesn't seem to have a very high one which is why i think it'd be a rather brief thread. Does anyone care to disagree that he is not that intelligent of a bball player? I'm open to being swayed...

[rilamann]

You think the 90's Rockets for example would have totally stopped passing the ball to Olajuwon because the opponet simply came with a double team,then had Kenny Smith and Veron Maxwell ignore him and go 1 on 1 the rest of the game.

How many titles would they have won they have won with that strategy? they probably wouldnt even have made the playoffs.

And before classicjack comes out of hibernation im not comparing Bogut to dream but its the same princible.

You don't go away from whats working and go away from a strengh simply because your opponet made an adjustment,you stick to your game plan untill it stops working then you make the counter adjustment.

[Epicurus]

Umm, are you sure the gameplan doesn't cover the double team contigency and the Bucks reaction to it?

[paulpressey25]

i'd like to start a thread to discuss Mo's Bball IQ...he just doesn't seem to have a very high one which is why i think it'd be a rather brief thread. Does anyone care to disagree that he is not that intelligent of a bball player? I'm open to being swayed...

I can't disagree with you......tonight Deron Williams humiliated him....we could have just as easily gotten the same thing from Beno Udrih on this road trip and saved $51 million.

[75totheMACCfund]

what really irked me at the end of the game was Mo and Redd either chucking up poor shots or driving and looking for a ticky tack foul to be called for them.

[paulpressey25]

You don't go away from whats working and go away from a strengh simply because your opponet made an adjustment,you stick to your game plan untill it stops working then you make the counter adjustment.

Rilaman...you have these games on TIVO. Go back to about when Bogut hit point number 20 tonight.....I'd bet the Bucks went back to that play four more times and Bogut got it stripped or the pass intercepted three of those times. That play stopped working.

The problem was Larry K. had no NEW play using Bogut or anyone else after that point.

[Simulack]

No...you do keep playing to Bogut....but Bogut has to be in on what to do.......he's got to kick out FAST before it gets stripped, because he was getting stripped a lot there. I was only commenting that the Bogut "windup" move on offense that he was successful with wasn't working anymore and had to be changed in some form.

I wasn't paying 100% attention to the game tonight but wasn't that sequence where Bogut got stripped frequently very early in the third period? It was earlier than you are implying by your 20 point comment.

I know he had 3 turnovers in very close succession so I went back and looked at the box score:

9:38 Andrew Bogut lost ball (Mehmet Okur steals)
8:17 Andrew Bogut lost ball (Mehmet Okur steals)
7:58 Andrew Bogut bad pass (Ronnie Brewer steals)

But after that it seemed to me like he started swinging the ball quicker. I know he got an assist on a Mo 3 right after that and then followed up with some offensive moves including that jaw-dropping dunk.

5:37 Mo Williams makes 24-foot three point jumper (Andrew Bogut assists)

4:54 Andrew Bogut makes layup (Bobby Simmons assists)

4:26 Andrew Bogut makes slam dunk (Mo Williams assists)

That dunk was the monster one that I believe he hit 20 on. That stretch of getting stripped was before these last three plays.

To me it looked like he had figured out the quick double teams and would have been able to get us some easier perimeter looks if we went inside first.

[unklchuk]

"The strength of the better teams is often largely to be able to take away the strengths of the inferior teams. It is all about matchups and adjustments/counteradjustments to minimize the matchup disadvantages. I am positive of one thing in my life that every Buck haed coach knows more about such than a poster, Rilaman."

My post here is not an attack. I doubt that few if any would dispute the truth of your assertion. My comment would be that posters are valued for the things they DO know. And coaches are undone by the (relatively few) things they don't know.

Though, of course, the agent of "undoning" is often more the roll of the cosmic dice or the commonly perceived pattern in the accumulation of circumstance.

As indicated by my post-without-seeing-yours (that the Bucks are a middling team) I agree with your mature perspective.

This thread started with the imperative Keep Bogut and Trade the Rest. It was a fit emotion for tonight's game (the 4th quarter) and an agent provocateur to spark the discussion.

But I hope it's soon forgotten. Few of us trust the current management to make good trades. As much as I subscribe to the belief that the team needs to win to reclaim their fan base, I'm not in favor of losing future assets to try to reclaim this season. And I fear that the leadershipless confusion on court has devalued all their trade assets.

If really smart people think that Coach K is over his head, then maybe make a move there. Otherwise, set small incremental goals, play out the string, and hope for something big and positive to happen this summer.

[Simulack]

Does Woelfel say "You are absolutely right" or "Exactly" while laughing to every single thing Sparky ever says?

Wait "No arguments here" is another one.

[paulpressey25]

I wasn't paying 100% attention to the game tonight but wasn't that sequence where Bogut got stripped frequently very early in the third period? .

I might be off on the timing off it since I watched the game about 90 minutes behind on TIVO.....all I can recall is that that play was working....they were going with it....then I watched Williams start dropping down fast on Bogut once the ball went to him. And it wasn't working.

[paulpressey25]

Does Woelfel say "You are absolutely right" or "Exactly" while laughing to every single thing Sparky ever says?

Was there anything good on there tonight? Or just the usual "Sparky gets frustrated and Woeffel says he heard from a Western conference GM that Michael Redd should be a starter on the all-star team"

[Simulack]

Exactly what you would expect. He's mostly calling out Mo and Redd for Bogut not getting the ball more. Even said "This team goes as far as Bogut does" at one point. Sparky was particularly hard on Mo and brought up a quote from earlier in the year where Mo said it was Bogut and Redd's team... then asked why Mo took 21 shots then when Bogut was dominating in the post. Gery thought maybe Mo was trying to show up Utah for giving him up.

LK said Utah made it "more difficult" to Bogut the ball. Both Sparky and Gary said that wasn't a great excuse; while partly true, it was more the fault of some of the other Bucks players for going away from him/chucking.

Gery's pretty much just a homer at this point. You got your usual "there are some good signs here" and "this team is tougher than it was in the past" etc. He even talked up Ruffin a bit as a guy who we might want to give more court time too.

[rilamann]

-= original quote snipped =-



Rilaman...you have these games on TIVO. Go back to about when Bogut hit point number 20 tonight.....I'd bet the Bucks went back to that play four more times and Bogut got it stripped or the pass intercepted three of those times. That play stopped working.

The problem was Larry K. had no NEW play using Bogut or anyone else after that point.

No I didn't Tivo the game and I understand what you are saying but my point is you don't just totally go away from Bogut simply because the Jazz came with a double team or stripped Bogut a couple times.

The Bucks totally ignored Bogut in the 4th qth and it was a joke.Make an adjustment,force feed him do something don't just totally ignore/go away from what is working and what is your biggest strength (in this game).

If Bogut didn't touch the ball in the 4th simply because the Jazz came with a double or the fact Bogut got stripped a couple times Larry K needs to find a new profession in my opinion,that is very weak coaching.

[paulpressey25]

Thanks for the recap....

Ty at his blog just put up an interesting stat. He's ranked the players based on how many games they put up a specific winscore in a game above the average score for that players position.

I'm not a huge fan of that metric, but it does point out our biggest problem. We have no consistent player other than Redd, and even he's not that highly ranked.

http://www.bucksdiary.blogspot.com/

Our guys are just way too inconsistent to expect any type of winning to take place on this team.

[Simulack]

Kept saying Gary even though I know its actually Gery, oops.

He also just suggested Atlanta might make a move for Jason Kidd.

Said he has heard nothing new regarding Bucks trades or the GM situation. Doesn't expect anything soon, mentioned that the trade deadline wasn't until the 23rd of February.

[Duncanfan]

hey guys.. missed the game, can anyone tell me why did CV play so little? did he get hurt or something? Seems like Yi had a rough night offensively and struggled with his shot (Does seem to have a good job with the blocks). Any reason CV was given the hook even though his +/- shows a +4?

[bentley]

In each of the last few road losses the Bucks have outscored the opponent from the field and gotten completely blown away at the free throw line--Lakers, Phoenix, Utah--the Bucks had more field goals in each game. HUGE differential in free throws.

50% of the season is over. Has there been improvement in any of these areas?
Coaching
Team chemistry
Individual play (other than Bogut and Mo and Yi)
How many games have the Bucks won over the past 2 years when Charlie Bell is one of the top 4 scorers ?
Are Simmons, Mason, CV, Redd redundant meaning same basic game with some talent differential? Is any of them a great rebounder ? a great defender ? a great passer ?
Will the team ever win with Redd?--he is a brilliant scorer --and ONLY a scorer--hanging around with Kobe and Lebron this summer did not change his DNA. He will not lead this or any team deep in the playoffs
Mo Williams is a winner, a great SG with combo skills and heart---keep him. Give Yi some time--winner Bogut--winner

[paul]

Bogut is a monster, there i said it. His play was outstanding again tonight, the only hope Okur had of stopping him was those two wild slaps at the ball for steals which were more luck than good D, he knew once bogut got him on the block he was toast. If we get even a reasonably intelligent team around him this guy is capable of 20+/10+, I'm not saying he'll get there, but he's DEFINITELY capable. Someone please call Jason Kidd.

Nice to see all those 'he has absolutely no post moves whatsoever' posters have shut up, please come back classicjack.

I'm sick of the coaching argument, but the coaching was crap again tonight imo. What the hell Yi was doing in the game in the fourth was beyond me, he was absolutely horrible again tonight. I'm big on Yi, he'll be a good player, but he is in a massive hole right now and has been for over a month save for his breakout game, just start CV already, it's gotten beyond a joke.

Redd and Mo's chucking in the 4th was predictable but still horrible to watch. Even when bogut was getting double teamed he was able to find open guys, just because your best player gets stripped twice in the 3rd quarter that is absolutely no reason not to go to him for the 4th. This game was virtually a carbon copy of the Suns game, if the coaching staff do not learn to continue to go to bogut in the 4th they have to be put on notice, it's just dumb ball chucking up crap J's from the bleachers. Bogut once again could have had 30+ on a different team, he didn't. The bucks once again could have won, we didn't. Same old same old. Redd and Mo are both good players, but they've both shown me they cannot co-exist on this team.

With all the negatives come a couple of positives - as stated boguts play has been outstanding, and the bucks have run 3 very good teams close on their home courts. Translate this play to the rest of the season, and grow a brain in a 4th quarter, and we can be very very competitive.

[magpies]

If Mo and Redd are chucking then bench them, I'd rather see Bell and Ivery trying then players chucking the ball all for the sake of their ego and their paycheque

[dogswithbeesintheirmouths]

Why are people giving up on Yi so easily?

Nobody is giving up on him. But he shouldn't play most of the 4th quarter when he can't make a simple entry pass and he is too weak to drive on anyone in the league. He was a complete negative out there, it would've been better to play Gadz or Ruffin and just not give them the ball.

Speaking of Gadz and Ruffin, Gadz won the battle of the guys with no skills today. Ruffin made some bad plays and didn't even show much hustle.

As for the Jazz, if I were them I would try to move Okur for a better rebounder and defender. He doesn't rebound enough and the only thing he can do on D is go for the steal. When he misses he is a total liability.