Redd Is Becoming The New Ray Allen For Me

[El Duderino]

Redd is the anti Reggie Miller.

Reggie was clutch while Redd is anti clutch.

Reggie was a high energy fired up leader while Redd is the anti high energy fired up leader.

When I think of Reggie I think of a competitive SOB that would win at all costs...even if it meant coming to blows with MJ. Those two had some all out wars. Redd...well he's a really nice guy.

As the main man Redd's never been a winner or a leader. He shows up every other game and as often as he wins us a game he'll kill us in the 4th and cost us a game. Many feel, and I agree, he is hurting the development of our young guys. Now factor in the fact he makes over $90,000,000.00. I've said it from day one. For the Bucks to win Redd needs to be a second or third best player. But then that means in two years (if ever) we're paying him $90 million to hang out at the 3-point line and hit open jumpers when Yi or Bogut gets doubled. Now if Bogut and Yi end up better than Redd (which we need to be winners) then how are we going to pay them when Redd is then making 17 and 18 million a season?

I can't see any upside in keeping Redd. If he is hurting our player development and he remains our best player, we'll continue stinking. Now if the young guys do bust out were stuck paying a max deal to a guy who's our 2nd or 3rd option who still can't defend and who's only job is to hit an open 3. At that point he'd be exactly what we need at $10 million a season. Kind of like a Kevin Martin who in 28 minutes last night was 14-16 / 9-11 for 39 points.

Thanks for saving me the time of posting what you did for me

I never bought into the Reggie Miller comparison and trying to build a Pacers type of team around Redd. Like you said, Miller was as clutch as it gets, he was a very smart basketball player, and he was a leader, none of which Michael Redd is.

I think Redd is actually a more skilled scorer overall than Miller was, but Reggie was a vastly better basketball player.

[europa]

The point was never to say Redd is Miller's equal. Mo isn't in Jackson's class as a PG either. But I do think Redd would be better served in a Miller-type role where he isn't asked to be Kobe, LeBron or Wade. I think such a role would actually help Redd since it would ask him to do less and thus not be prone to trying to do too much which is typically when he gets into trouble.

[El Duderino]

I'm not saying the Pacers would have sucked if Redd was in place instead of Miller, but they wouldn't have had the same success.

Plus, we don't have Mark Jackson, Smits, the Davis duo, a young Jalen Rose, Derrick McKey, and Sam Perkins. Even if we got lucky and a smart GM was brought in who was allowed to makes moves, he wouldn't be able to build a team like that in time for Redd to be worth the cash we are pay him for the time being.

[europa]

The point is you can build a contender around a top SG if you have the other pieces in place. I agree the Bucks don't have those pieces and that's a big part of the problem in my opinion. That the Bucks have failed in Redd's tenure to bring in the right pieces isn't Redd's fault. It could have been done if the right moves were made.

[ReasonablySober]

The point is you can build a contender around a top SG if you have the other pieces in place. I agree the Bucks don't have those pieces and that's a big part of the problem in my opinion. That the Bucks have failed in Redd's tenure to bring in the right pieces isn't Redd's fault. It could have been done if the right moves were made.

That's exactly like using the analogy that teams without superstars can win titles by using the Pistons as an example. Can you build around a non-superstar SG and contend? Yes. But it's so extremely rare that it's almost not even worth mentioning.

[Andrew34r]

Here are the differences between the two from my point of view...

1. There was a huge connection between Ray Allen and the Milwaukee fans. The number of Allen jerseys in the crowd far outdid the number of Redd jerseys in any crowd I have ever seen. Also nationally Ray put the Bucks back on the map even if it was for a short period of time by the Eastern Conference run in 2000 to his winning of the 3 point contest at All-Star Weekend to his winning of the gold medal at the olympics. Ray was everywhere and also gave very good interviews and the biggest thing was that Ray talked so well of the city and was here all year round...Redd does not talk bad about the city but once the season is over he bolts back to Columbus, Ohio.

Redd has never made that kind of impact with the Bucks....he was named to an All-Star game which is great but has not done too much else to put Milwaukee on the map.

2. I dont think there was nearly as many people that wanted Ray traded as there is Redd. Granted...when the trade went down there were a lot of people that liked it (i was not one of them) but I accepted it and still supported the team that I love. Im afraid that if Redd was traded some Bucks fans would be jumping for joy even if we got back a bunch of middle of the line players that wont make much of a contribution at all.

Redd might be the new Ray Allen for some people but for me he can never make the impact on the team and city that Ray did unless we put together some seasons where we are impact players in the East or the NBA in general. Ray (I never wanted to trade) Redd (I would consider the right deal) It just seems no matter what Redd does he just does not fit in well with this team.

[El Duderino]

The point is you can build a contender around a top SG if you have the other pieces in place. I agree the Bucks don't have those pieces and that's a big part of the problem in my opinion. That the Bucks have failed in Redd's tenure to bring in the right pieces isn't Redd's fault. It could have been done if the right moves were made.

I do think those Pacer teams were fairly rare in that they were lead by a SG, i can't include the Bulls teams because Jordan wasn't just a SG, he was the best player ever.

Reggie was such a clutch player and such a leader that it's not often you'll find a top contender lead by their long range bomber that isn't a primary ball handler in that Kobe/Wade class.

I'm not one to blame Redd for most of the Bucks problems, no question the talent around him has been flimsy. It is what it is though, we have the team that we have right now. It's lights years away from being as diversely talented as those Pacer teams were. If we had the pieces those Pacer teams had, i might be more receptive to keeping Redd even though Miller was a much better basketball player.

I'm now in the trade Redd camp because he's like having a very expensive great pair of rims on a car that rarely ever starts. If we are lucky enough that a new GM can fix this poor roster, it's likely going to take time. Doesn't make much sense to me to pay a SG 16-17-18 million while the rest of the roster isn't in the kind of shape that it might be able to best use Redd's skills.

[InsideOut]

I'm not saying the Pacers would have sucked if Redd was in place instead of Miller, but they wouldn't have had the same success.

Plus, we don't have Mark Jackson, Smits, the Davis duo, a young Jalen Rose, Derrick McKey, and Sam Perkins. Even if we got lucky and a smart GM was brought in who was allowed to makes moves, he wouldn't be able to build a team like that in time for Redd to be worth the cash we are pay him for the time being.

Even if we had a smart GM or an owner that would let a smart GM do his job, how do we afford a team like that with Redd making 17 and 18 million a season? I don't recall Miller getting paid the max. As I mentioned here or in another thread, the big 4 in Detroit will average $11 million next season. Redd will be making 16 million. Redd will make only $3.5 million less than Rip and Prince COMBINED.

The secret to building these great teams (Detroit / Indiana) without a super-star is to not give one piece of the puzzle a max deal. When this happens you can't afford the other pieces of the puzzle and you have no wiggle room for mistakes (Gadz) or injury (Simmons). For us to win and Redd to earn his max he needs to be a Bron, Wade, Duncan... It's not his fault but he isn't that that type of player. For better or worse the Bucks hitched their horse to Redd when they gave him the max. I understand people didn't want to lose him for nothing but we are now living with the alternative which isn't much better. There was a small chance of making it work but Kohl vetoed the Boozer deal. And if I remember correctly GAD said it was because Kohl didn't want another huge contract on the books with Redd. This is just one example of how giving one guy the max keeps you from building like the Pistons or Pacers. There is only so much cash to go around...especially in Milwaukee.

[L&H_05]

In a semi unrelated comment, I think Ray was better.. Even in Seattle, he seemed more like a leader and a willing teacher to the younger guys than Mike does...

Ray doesn't seem like a selfish player, whereas Mike, (albeit a nice, quite guy) seems to have some on court selfish tendencies regarding his game, and whether it translates to winning basketball, or Michael Redd Statistical basketball...

Perhaps that's inaccurate, but from the outside looking in, and catching several Bucks games on league pass, that's the tone I get...

[Andrew34r]

Well I dont think that it was a coincidence that Ray was an All Star every single year he was with Seattle. He could have been that in Milwaukee too, IMO. And now has had no problem being even more of a team player with Boston. If you put Redd on Boston in place of Ray would they be as good...better or worse...I would lean towards worse because of his style of play but maybe he would prove me wrong.

Once Ray was traded to the Sonics I watched almost every game he played with them and it was crystal clear that the team looked to Ray as a leader. In Milwaukee it was 3 guys fighting to be that guy that Ray was in Seattle. I think in the long run we found out that we let the wrong guy go. I still would have loved to see a Ford/Allen backcourt but maybe thats just me.

[europa]

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That's exactly like using the analogy that teams without superstars can win titles by using the Pistons as an example. Can you build around a non-superstar SG and contend? Yes. But it's so extremely rare that it's almost not even worth mentioning.

Of the current Bucks' pieces, that's the only model I see available. I haven't seen too many teams built around average PGs, or average centers so that takes care of Mo and Bogut. Now if Bogut takes another step then that changes things. But then Redd looks even more valuable given the inside-outside potential the team would have.

In a semi unrelated comment, I think Ray was better.. Even in Seattle, he seemed more like a leader and a willing teacher to the younger guys than Mike does...

That may be true but it was Ray's form of leadership which made it quite clear to me this team would never go anywhere with him as its best player. He was soft and a horrible defender (worse than Redd) and he lacked the fire to make his team better. I'm not saying Redd's a better leader than Ray; but it's not like Ray-led teams did all that well in Seattle.

[ReasonablySober]

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That may be true but it was Ray's form of leadership which made it quite clear to me this team would never go anywhere with him as its best player. He was soft and a horrible defender (worse than Redd) and he lacked the fire to make his team better. I'm not saying Redd's a better leader than Ray; but it's not like Ray-led teams did all that well in Seattle.

I think it's a stretch to call Williams average at this point.

[europa]

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I think it's a stretch to call Williams average at this point.

I think he and Bogut are both slightly above average at their respective positions. Neither one is someone you would build a contending team around at the moment though if Bogut is able to sustain his high level of play of late that will change.

[El Duderino]

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I think it's a stretch to call Williams average at this point.

I've supported Mo more than many others on this board, but with his terrible defense factored into the equation, i'd say Mo is only a bit above average as a player.

[Nebula1]

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And neb, I'm not sure who the Bucks could get for Redd and Simmons. That's a lot of money to give to another team. Unless this was a multi-team deal, I don't know if one team would want to take on all that much salary in one trade. I think the best hope to deal Simmons would be to pair him with a team that really wanted Mo, Villanueva or maybe both.

I would like to pair Mo/Simmons for a SF if possible and give Ramon a run. I think Redd can still work on this team, but the glue guy has to be at 3.

[ReasonablySober]

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I've supported Mo more than many others on this board, but with his terrible defense factored into the equation, i'd say Mo is only a bit above average as a player.

I think you're overestimating the defensive prowess of most PGs in the NBA. There are a couple standouts and the a lot of very average ones. Mo's not good but he's not the sieve that so many make him out to be.

This about as unscientific as it gets but charting the Bucks opposition, but in 51% of the Bucks games the starting guard opposite Mo has scored above their average (19 above, 18 below). For the sake of reference, the number is 50% for Mike's games (17/17).

If he was as among the worst, wouldn't you believe the percentage to be higher?

[paul]

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I think you're overestimating the defensive prowess of most PGs in the NBA. There are a couple standouts and the a lot of very average ones. Mo's not good but he's not the sieve that so many make him out to be.

This about as unscientific as it gets but charting the Bucks opposition, but in 51% of the Bucks games the starting guard opposite Mo has scored above their average (19 above, 18 below). For the sake of reference, the number is 50% for Mike's games (17/17).

If he was as among the worst, wouldn't you believe the percentage to be higher?

You would, although we have been forced to play quite a lot of zone this year so individual matchups aren't quite as relevant, and a lot of the reason we are forced to do that is our terrible perimeter defense imo.

[Max Green]

Yep, Redd is becoming just like Ray Allen, and where gonna end up trading him just like we did for Ray and end up getting nothing in return. Now look what happen to Ray once he left Milwaukee, he continued to make all-star appearences and now is on a 30-6 Boston team ready to compete for the NBA Championship.

I'm starting to wish Mike had signed with Cav's so we could see him and Lebron destroying teams, while this franchise would've been one of the worst in the league because we signed Bobby Simmons to replace him.

[trwi7]

I'm starting to wish Mike had signed with Cav's so we could see him and Lebron destroying teams, while this franchise would've been one of the worst in the league because we signed Bobby Simmons to replace him.

Wake up call! We're one of the worst teams in the league with Redd.

[L&H_05]

I'm starting to wish Mike had signed with Cav's so we could see him and Lebron destroying teams, while this franchise would've been one of the worst in the league because we signed Bobby Simmons to replace him.

LBJ got 51 tonight on 28 shots to go along with 8 boards and 9 assists...

That's getting it done...

Maybe with Mike, LBJ could get a little more 1 on 1 coverage to have a few more of these...