Pacers @ Sixers 1/21/08: 2PM Tip-Off!!

[dbodner]

BTW Fixer, I think your point may be valid- but we are not yet in a position to be very choosy with our talent. Lets see them both develop over the next 1-2 seasons, and if they don't mesh then deal one of them.

I think we need to see them play together a whole lot more this year. Please, Mo. Start Thad. Please.

[Sixersftw]

after that 2nd half start and his performance in the game, it can't be far off.

[The Guilty Party]

Seriously... I hope Thad gets his first start by the all-star break. Of course, I hope there's a trade before then as well which could further enhance those odds.

[The Sixer Fixer]

BTW Fixer, I think your point may be valid- but we are not yet in a position to be very choosy with our talent. Lets see them both develop over the next 1-2 seasons, and if they don't mesh then deal one of them.

I think we need to see them play together a whole lot more this year. Please, Mo. Start Thad. Please.

I'm not so sure seeing them play together this year is going to prove how they will be together long term. Until we get a post player, I doubt the type of offense we run this year would resemble the type of offense we run when we have a post presence. But I do agree, it's time to start Thad. At this point I don't care if it's Green or Evans to the bench.

Also, must say I disagree with your analysis of Andre and how he fits with Thad. I fear now that Andre has come out of the shadow of AI, he thinks he's way better than he really is. Why else would he have turned down that contract offer? Can't tell me, or anyone else, that it wasn't a fair market offer. I think he sees himself as a near max type guy and that's just absurd. I serioulsy think that Andre sees himself as a #1 and I do not think he would be content mainly as a distibutor (of course it's just my opinion though). Also, I don't think he will ever become a high % guy from 3 pt land. His jump shot has way too much arc on it and it's so much harder to shoot a high % when you do that. I can't think of anyone who shoots a rainbow like him and has had consistent success with it. I can't imagine he's going to re-tool his shot at this point in his career.

My whole point is I think you need either your SG or SF to be a shooter. Not just guys who can hit the occassional outside shot, but guys who can play there and open up the paint because people fear leaving them on the perimeter. I don't see Andre being that guy. I think teams are perfectly content to let Andre shoot jumpers all day. There's not many teams that have real success without having 1 really good shooter (and I'm not talking about a guy like Korver who is a liability in most other aspects of the game).

[bebopdeluxe]

dabods:

It is easier said than done to find that #1 option (at PF, I guess?) that will allow Iggy to be this 16-18 ppg guy at SG for the next several years. While I will certainly defer to others who know stats more than I do, it is hard for me to see Iguodala scoring 16-18 ppg as our 38 mpg SG in a secnario where we have a legit, proven #1 option. His shots will be down - a LOT. As Sixer Fixer has said, a decent amount of his current offense is generated from his dominating the ball (and killing ball movement), and if we have a legit #1 option, my fear is that - as when AI was here - that we start seeing more 5-7 shot per game type efforts from Iggy (and I do not want to pay Iggy $50-55 million to be a 6-shot-per-game SG).

Hey - if we can keep him for $50 million or less, I may be on board...I'm just having a really tough time imagining the PF that we will get to put between Thad and Sammy (and it does NOT sound like Stefanski is moving Sammy any time soon) that will do all the things on offense that we need...if you can find that guy without giving up either Iggy or Sammy, I am all for giving it a shot with Iggy as the SG. I just don't see where that deal is coming from. And from where I sit, moving Iggy in a S&T may be one of the best ways to get that #1 scoring option that we need.

[dbodner]

Also, must say I disagree with your analysis of Andre and how he fits with Thad. I fear now that Andre has come out of the shadow of AI, he thinks he's way better than he really is. Why else would he have turned down that contract offer?

Because the market for young, athletic, versatile players is high and people have been getting huge contracts lately? Because nobody outside of people who were maxed out signed extensions? Because there's very little chance he won't be able to get 50 million this year?

I don't subscribe to the theory that "didn't sign an extension" equals "thinks he's a superstar and became too big for his britches". By that definition, Gordon, Deng and Okafor think they're superstars as well. I definitely don't get the impression that Deng and Okafor think they're superstar franchise players, and I don't think Iguodala's going to be unable to become a second/third fiddle when the time comes.

It is easier said than done to find that #1 option (at PF, I guess?) that will allow Iggy to be this 16-18 ppg guy at SG for the next several years. While I will certainly defer to others who know stats more than I do, it is hard for me to see Iguodala scoring 16-18 ppg as our 38 mpg SG in a secnario where we have a legit, proven #1 option. His shots will be down - a LOT

Well, this team will never be a contender until they do get that #1 option who makes Iggy a 16-18 ppg scorer, and moving Iguodala doesn't automatically solve that. The Sixers, unless they extend Andre Miller, will have 10+ million in free agency in both of the next two coming offseasons. Unless an Iguodala trade directly gets us a #1 option in return, I don't see how moving him speeds up this process.

As for whether he can get the shots, I absolutely think he can. He's currently only shooting 15 times per game. I don't expect his attempts to go back down. You cited AI and Cwebb, and Iguodala having 5-7 field goal attempts per game. AI and CWebb combined for 44 field goal attempts and 16 field goal attempts per game. That's a LOT of offensive attempts. Adding an Elton Brand/Jermaine O'Neal type isn't going to take away that many shots from Iguodala. He got the 8.4 attempts per game he got that year pretty much on hustle players and fast breaks. He'll always be able to get the 12-15 shots per game it would take for him to average 16-18 ppg IMO.

Hey - if we can keep him for $50 million or less, I may be on board...I'm just having a really tough time imagining the PF that we will get to put between Thad and Sammy (and it does NOT sound like Stefanski is moving Sammy any time soon) that will do all the things on offense that we need...if you can find that guy without giving up either Iggy or Sammy, I am all for giving it a shot with Iggy as the SG. I just don't see where that deal is coming from. And from where I sit, moving Iggy in a S&T may be one of the best ways to get that #1 scoring option that we need.

hey, if Igudoala directly gets us a #1 type of player, I'm all on board. But there's this prevailing notion around here that moving Iguodala is a necessary, and that it will somehow fix our problems. Iguodala is an asset that will be needed in the future at 23 years old, and IMO our best chances of getting a franchise level guy is not in a trade (those guys are generally not traded), but through draft (where we should have good picks) and free agency, where we'll have near max cap room both of the next two years.

[bebopdeluxe]

Another goodpost, Sixer Fixer...I do not think that Iggy's jumpshot mechanics lend itself to being extremely successful either in shooting CONSISTENTLY from distance or in shooting on-the-move. I think that playing for the select team this summer has gotten him thinking that, in fact, he IS worth more than he really is (perhaps somebody should clue Iggy in that the reason he was there was probably because his defense and athleticism would make him a good sparring partner for the players on the national team).

I do not enjoy these posts about Iguodala. I like his game a lot...and he seems like a decent guy to boot. I just am starting to think that he has a higher impression of himself than he should, and before we give the guy $50+ million, Eddie should consider all other options for that money before we give it to him.

[bebopdeluxe]

dabods:

I think that my openness to moving Iggy in a S&T is - hopefully - for that #1 option (either directly in the Iggy deal, or in concert with our cap room this summer). I am not advocating moving Iggy simply because I do not want to give him the money (although I reserve the right to make that decision in a few months) - I simply want Stefanski to consider ALL options this summer...and depending on how the rest of the season plays out, doing a S&T for Iggy may be an option, and I am open to that option.

[SendEm]

If Iggy is not going to be a MAJOR factor in our offense MOVING FORWARD then I don't believe that he has much value at all. People are making posts about the days of the past when Iggy did well playing off of the ball taking open set shots and cutting to the basket. Well those skills can be found in SG/SF's who are currently in the NBDL or Europe looking for a "Big Break." I'd much rather have Jamario Moon, Roger Mason Jr., Kareem Rush, Kelenna Azebuki, and any other SG/SF type that has been signed off of the street for 2 cents rather than lock our franchise into an overrated player like Iggy for $8 million+.

[Mik317]

yeah let's get rid of a proven guy for a unproven one just because SendEm says so......do you even read what you type?

[freshie2]

The off the street swing players being mentioned must have some hidden value that I'm not seeing. We continually read about Moon, who can jump out of the building, but in playing 29 minutes a game, the only somewhat impressive stat is 6.5 rebounds per game. From the games I've seen him, he's a nice high energy guy if you have 4 other solid scorers around him. If you put him on the Sixers roster instead of Iguodala, where does his scoring coverage come from? None of the players you list have ever shown to be anything other than a one trick (if that) pony...the Sixers have put Iguodala in a position where he is the main option on offense at this point. Put those other players listed in the same role, and the beer goggles may come off.

[dbodner]

I think that my openness to moving Iggy in a S&T is - hopefully - for that #1 option (either directly in the Iggy deal, or in concert with our cap room this summer)

That's my point though. Moving Iggy isn't necessary to get enough cap room this summer to sign a #1 type option. Whether or not we're able to sign a #1 option this summer is irrespective of if we keep Iguodala or not. If you trade Iguodala, the only way it helps you IMO is if you get a #1 directly back in the trade.

[SendEm]

Oh please! Iguodala's little ol 19.1ppg will NOT be missed. Is Iguodala's "scoring" missed when he sits the bench? Has his scoring EVER been missed whenever he sits the bench? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Iguodala plays 40 minutes per game and only averages 19.1 points while having plays called for him as the #1 option. He shoots .436% from the field. What is there to like? People only like Iggy because he can dazzle fans in the slam dunk contest. Where are the half court dunks? Jamario Moon probably already has more half court dunks off of the dribble drive than Iguodala has in his entire career. People overvalue Iggy's 19 points and fast break dunking ability. These same people probably thought that Kenny Thomas was a good player too. They probably called him "Mr. Double Double." LOL.

Why do the Sixers always manage to have tweeners? Clarence Weatherspoon, Kenny Thomas, Corliss Williamson, Iverson, Iguodala, Louis Williams, even Barlkley. Why can't we have a team full of players with a true position on the court and no major deficiencies?

Then we have players that can't shoot straight like Larry Hughes, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, Evans, Andre Miller from 3pter. Iguodala. Then the one guy that could shoot straight couldn't defend, Korver.

Why can't we ever have players like Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, and Kobe Bryant? Our last two best players were the 2 shortest players to EVER play there positions in Barkley and AI. I don't like how we are always force fed flawed players year after year after year after year. Iguodala is flawed. He can't shoot and he can't drive. He's not a SG and he's not a SF. Get that man off of my Sixers please. I WANT REAL NBA PLAYERS WITH POSITIONS AND SKILLS.

[bebopdeluxe]

dabods:

My point was that a S&T with Iguodala could potentially net us somebody who has a higher contract (like Amare, for example), because we have the cap room to make that work...

I would think that any decision to move Iggy would be coordinated with our cap room , with the goal at the end of a day to acquire that #1 option...I just want to make sure that Eddie has as may options as possible.

[dbodner]

Why can't we ever have players like Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, and Kobe Bryant?

Because we haven't gotten the draft pick necessary?

My point was that a S&T with Iguodala could potentially net us somebody who has a higher contract (like Amare, for example), because we have the cap room to make that work...

Right. But that's a trade that gets the player back in the same trade.

[SendEm]

Because we haven't gotten the draft pick necessary?

It's not about having a high enough draft pick because Kobe wasn't a high draft pick. Other players whose names I could have inserted like Jermaine O'neal (before the injury), and Kevin Martin weren't high draft picks. I'm tired of these out of position tweener flawed players we have year after year. Dana Barros is another out of position player. Anyone remember Sharon Wright, the center with the height of a PF? This deserves its own thread.

[bebopdeluxe]

dabods:

While I agree that FA or the draft is the more common way to get a franchise guy, it can happen through a trade (Shaq twice and KG this season are just the most recent examples of this)...I view Iguodala's current position - as a RFA - as kind of a hybrid situation...the FA part of it leads to the S&T...so it is a "trade", but a trade facilitated by the "R" part of the RFA designation.

Again, I think that Stefanski will have a pretty good idea of what he has on this roster by the end of the season...and he needs to have every tool at his disposal to get this team where he thinks it needs to be. If, for example, he can bring in a legit low-post-scoring PF, then I think Iguodala can be our SG of the future (some of his current limitations offensively at that position can be compensated for by the space that a low-post thread can provide...like Amare does for the Suns or TD for the Spurs). However, if he cannot find that guy with the cap room or other resources we have (and if the ping-pong-gods do NOT smile on us this summer), then he may have to consider moving Iguodala in a S&T to get us where we need to be.

[dbodner]

It's not about having a high enough draft pick because Kobe wasn't a high draft pick. Other players whose names I could have inserted like Jermaine O'neal (before the injury), and Kevin Martin weren't high draft picks. I'm tired of these out of position tweener flawed players we have year after year. Dana Barros is another out of position player. Anyone remember Sharon Wright, the center with the height of a PF? This deserves its own thread.

Kobe chose his destination, and we didn't have a big to trade.

The vast majority of franchise players come via the draft.

[SendEm]

It's not even really about it being a franchise player. Just a very good player with a TRUE and NATURAL position and no major flaws. Joe Johnson, Josh Howard, Manu Ginobili, and Richard Jefferson are more players with natural positions and no major flaws.

[dbodner]

Richard Jefferson is the exact reason you don't give up on Iguodala. At 24 years old he was asked to be a #1 option when Kidd went down. While he got his points, he had serious flaws in his game. He shot 42% from the field, 33% from 3, and averaged 4 turnovers per game (a 1/1 assist to turnover ratio). His first 5 years in the league (through age 25) he shot 32% from 3 and had a 1.4/1 assist to turnover ratio. His growth as a player is proof not to overreact on an incomplete game.