#44. LA Lakers @ Detroit Pistons. 4:30 tip, 5:30 tv delay

[dockingsched]

odom not helping doesn't mean the lakers would have conceded the basket. players like kobe and turiaf would have helped like they always do when its their responsibility to do so.

[LLcoleJ]

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Let's say that Odom shouldn't have left Prince(which I agree that he shouldn't, there was just no way he could have recovered in time, we had no choice but to take our chances with OT, considering that Prince had a 90% chance of making that shot), when you're an underdog on the road, overtime doesn't guarantee anything.

what?

[Lakers05]

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wtf are you talking about? The fact is Odom didnt "contest it somewhat" and Billups driving to the basket is still better than a wide open 3 in a 2 point game... No one is going to play perfect every game, but that doesnt mean that you shouldnt play smart

I'm saying that, the way that sequence unfolded, it looks like that with that substitution, we were going to give up, i.e conceding a basket no matter what. In fact, I'd argue that if we were to repeat that last possession 100 times, the Pistons would score 90% of the times, EVEN if Odom expected the miss and ran to the rebound before Prince(of course, then you're basically expecting him to predict the future, instead of watching the ball and worrying whether it would go in, as any human would), assuming that we used the same substitution and the Pistons ran the same play.

[Rox_Nix_Nox]

WOw im so sad...I said earlier in this thread the lakers were gonna win...that's until OdumB poped his ugly head..Lamar is simply retarted. They had to have told the team to not allow a 3 They had too. Damn im so disappointed. We had this game. lamar needs to go no kidd I want artest. Give sac. lamar,kwame, 2 future first round draft picks and critt for artest and some other bum to make the deal work. Im tired of ODUMB

[Gerald3Wallace]

WOw im so sad...I said earlier in this thread the lakers were gonna win...that's until OdumB poped his ugly head..Lamar is simply retarted. They had to hade told the team to not allow a 3 They had too. Damn im so disappointed. We had this game. lamar needs to go no kidd I want artest. Give sac. lamar,kwame, 2 future first round draft picks and critt for artest and some other bum to make the deal work. Im tired of ODUMB

lamar+kwame+2 first rounds is already too much...then u wanna throw in critt? for artest and a bum? really?

[Lakers05]

odom not helping doesn't mean the lakers would have conceded the basket. players like kobe and turiaf would have helped like they always do when its their responsibility to do so.

I would agree that there's no guarantee that we'd concede the basket(though when you give guys that wide open a lane, your chances of giving up a basket are probably over 80%). However, it's easy to say that now that the game has unfolded.

If I had to guess why Odom decided to help out(and he had plenty of time to "think" about that decision too), I'd say it was probably because he feared OT(compounded by Kobe playing 47 minutes already.)

[Rox_Nix_Nox]

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lamar+kwame+2 first rounds is already too much...then u wanna throw in critt? for artest and a bum? really?

wHAT are We ever going to accomplish with kwame and lamar? Tell me?

[LLcoleJ]

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I'm saying that, the way that sequence unfolded, it looks like that with that substitution, we were going to give up, i.e conceding a basket no matter what. In fact, I'd argue that if we were to repeat that last possession 100 times, the Pistons would score 90% of the times, EVEN if Odom expected the miss and ran to the rebound before Prince(of course, then you're basically expecting him to predict the future, instead of watching the ball and worrying whether it would go in, as any human would), assuming that we used the same substitution and the Pistons ran the same play.

If Rasheed is taking the last 3 of the game there is NO other excuse as to why one of their 3 point threats should get a set shot, period.

[That Nicka]

odom not helping doesn't mean the lakers would have conceded the basket. players like kobe and turiaf would have helped like they always do when its their responsibility to do so.

Hey dcash4... Remember last week I said I was kinda scared of making it to the finals and Lamar pulling a Gary Payton... This is exactly the kind of game I could see Odom playing... Only, for an entire series

[diturral]

dumb and dumber were handling the ball on the last play thats why we lost.

[dockingsched]

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Hey dcash4... Remember last week I said I was kinda scared of making it to the finals and Lamar pulling a Gary Payton... This is exactly the kind of game I could see Odom playing... Only, for an entire series

a 6/7/6 night from odom won't be a big deal when bynum is playing. as far as the last play of the game, odom shouldn't be in that situation. he shouldn't be asked to make a game winning shot as long as one of the following players is healthy: kobe/ sasha/ fisher/ farmar/ turiaf/ bynum/ vladimir/ critt/ karl/ ariza /bshaw/ kurt

[Lakers05]

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If Rasheed is taking the last 3 of the game there is NO other excuse as to why one of their 3 point threats should get a set shot, period.

Why? Offensive rebounds happen. And generally, it happens when you allow penetration and/or when you leave someone open and "hope" that he misses, instead of "expect" him to miss(there is a HUGE difference in the words that I quoted, pay careful attention the next game and you'll see why).

You can replay that sequence 100 times, you can replay the Nash shot 100 times, you will always give up the offensive rebound(that is unless you're trained over and over not to watch the ball.) I don't care if you have Wilt in that exact instance(in other words, after the ball was shot, not before, i.e assume that Wilt does not play defense any different than Odom, just their rebounding ability is different) instead of Odom, you'll ALWAYS give up the rebound(assuming that of course, that Wilt doesn't know what's going to happen. In other words, you're testing him 100 times, but somehow able to erase his memory or go back in time after each iteration).

Now, it IS possible for guys to expect a miss, even when you leave guys open. Of course, you would be trying to reverse what their natural instinct is. I mean, just imagine what you'd have to tell these guys, "hey guys, if you saw Nash or Billups taking a wide open three off a screen, on the last possession, I want you to expect that they're going to miss and run straight to the rebound, instead of standing there, looking at them and hope that they're going to miss."

[zen_4_10]

More than anything with LO...it continues to be a lack of effort that dissapoints me. I can handle poor stats but not poor effort and he is coasting on both ends that irks me.

When he plays with fire I repect him regardless of his stats. That just hasn't been the case much this year.

[LLcoleJ]

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a 6/7/6 night from odom won't be a big deal when bynum is playing. as far as the last play of the game, odom shouldn't be in that situation. he shouldn't be asked to make a game winning shot as long as one of the following players is healthy: kobe/ sasha/ fisher/ farmar/ turiaf/ bynum/ vladimir/ critt/ karl/ ariza /bshaw/ kurt

D, I like Odom and I know you do. But you do a great job of lowering Odom to a level where we shouldnt be "surprised" about what happens.

It doest really matter about the expecations some have of him or even his salary in comparison to what he should produce. The fact is he is a leader of this team and he needs to act like it. When you excuse his bonehead plays and or lack doing the right thing or being "clutch" it doesnt change the fact that he is making mistakes that cost this team.

I know you are an LO fan and I am one as well. It just seems you recognize his faults but you want us ( and him ) to lower our expecations of a leader of the team and at times, basic basketball fundamentals.

[ChocolateThundr]

I got an idea for Lamar.

He looks overwhelmed out there right now and trying to do too much and achieving nothing, so my idea for him is just to go out there and focus on scoring at least 20 points efficiently. Forget about assists and rebounds, just do the other stuff naturally and dont worry about them. Just go out there and net 20 points

[Rox_Nix_Nox]

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wHAT are We ever going to accomplish with kwame and lamar? Tell me?

Still waiting wallace....

[LLcoleJ]

Why? Offensive rebounds happen. And generally, it happens when you allow penetration and/or when you leave someone open and "hope" that he misses, instead of "expect" him to miss(there is a HUGE difference in the words that I quoted, pay careful attention the next game and you'll see why).

We are not talking about " offensive rebounds happens". We are talking about when you have a team that needs a 3 to win the game at home and the 4th best 3 pointer for that team is taking the shot, as a defense you need to recognize where the other threats are and stay with them in case of an offensive rebound. It alot easier for an offensive rebound that leads to a 2 then leaving 3 point shooters on wide open for the win. That is basic basketball fundamentals and as a coach and or player you play the percentages and you dont give the other team more opportunities to beat you.

You can replay that sequence 100 times, you can replay the Nash shot 100 times, you will always give up the offensive rebound(that is unless you're trained over and over not to watch the ball.) I don't care if you have Wilt in that exact instance(in other words, after the ball was shot, not before, i.e assume that Wilt does not play defense any different than Odom, just their rebounding ability is different) instead of Odom, you'll ALWAYS give up the rebound(assuming that of course, that Wilt doesn't know what's going to happen. In other words, you're testing him 100 times, but somehow able to erase his memory or go back in time after each iteration).

huh?

Now, it IS possible for guys to expect a miss, even when you leave guys open. Of course, you would be trying to reverse what their natural instinct is. I mean, just imagine what you'd have to tell these guys, "hey guys, if you saw Nash or Billups taking a wide open three off a screen, on the last possession, I want you to expect that they're going to miss and run straight to the rebound, instead of standing there, looking at them and hope that they're going to miss."

ummm...

again! when the 4th best 3 point shooter is taking the shot for the game you play the percentages and stay on the threats around the perimiter. If that 4th best 3 point shooter makes it then it was a great shot. If they miss and get the ball back and get a 2 then its a time game and we have 2 options...
1) go to overtime
2) have a couple seconds left for a game winner

You NEVER leave 3 point shooters open in ANY circumstance and that rule was proven tonight.

Its basketball fundamentals 101. You let the 6'10 PF shoot a 3 and you lock down any rebound and kick for a the 3, period.

[Lakers05]

Even if you were able to somehow train guys to resist the temptation to watch the ball, when the shooter is wide open, then no guarantee that those shooters would miss in the first place, since often times, they can see out of the corner of their eyes what you're doing, and often times, what they see and how that thought crosses their mind can put them BACK into rhythm. If a "choker" sees you going for a board almost before he shoots the ball, that can make him mad and thus override his choking mentality.

Basketball is a funny game. To put it simply, it's a game of rhythm. For example, Kobe tried to be smart on Sunday by allowing Lebron to catch the ball, and then fouled him, thinking that he'd miss at least one. But what happened? Lebron knew that, and thus it overrode his choking mentality. Left naturally or done in a subtler manner, Lebron probably would have choked, but Kobe made it a bit too obvious and gave away the idea, that kind of made him mad(or perhaps calmer), and often times, that can override the fear.

[dockingsched]

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D, I like Odom and I know you do. But you do a great job of lowering Odom to a level where we shouldnt be "surprised" about what happens.

It doest really matter about the expecations some have of him or even his salary in comparison to what he should produce. The fact is he is a leader of this team and he needs to act like it. When you excuse his bonehead plays and or lack doing the right thing or being "clutch" it doesnt change the fact that he is making mistakes that cost this team.

I know you are an LO fan and I am one as well. It just seems you recognize his faults but you want us ( and him ) to lower our expecations of a leader of the team and at times, basic basketball fundamentals.

yeah, i think i've taken my expectations to the extreme. its been easier for me to cope with lamar's failures by simply expecting it now. offensively i expect nothing from him except hustle. i've said it several times but he should get his points from simply hustling. get some putbacks, make some cuts. on the defensive end i find his effort pathetic and inexcusable. lamar is invisible 90% of the time, and he should never be.

[Lakers05]

Sorry, but it's not as simple as "letting a 6'10 PF shoot, period." If that's the case, then couldn't you just tell Kwame to double-hard on Billups, and after Billups gets rid of the ball, tell him to run straight to the basket, preparing to rebound? In other words, you're saying that you're going to let Sheed shoot the 3, no matter how open he was.

There is a degree of defense that you still need to play to force even a guy like Sheed to miss(yes sometimes, Sheed will miss them wide open, but it has to happen "naturally", you dare him beyond the "reasonable fear" of the game, and chances are he'll make them).