Congratulations Kobe - now #3 for number of 40 point games!!

[99 Problems]

lol@Raptors Defense.

If we had any defense to laugh at I would too...


And Kobe = Jordan...

[tkb]

I calculated them myself, albeit crudely. It's an approximation that should be valid within reason; moreover, whatever errors inhere in this formula should hold in both scenarios (then vs. now). Here's how I estimate possessions:

FGA + (FTA/2)

Same for players and teams. I'll respond more thoroughly later.

Why don't you just use Usage rate instead of that formula (which is incredibly flawed IMO)?

Using usage rate, Kobe's 2nd most prolific season when it comes to percentage of team possessions used is less prolific than Jordan's 7th most prolific one.

Now, having a high usage rate isn't a bad thing. You generally want the ball in the hands of your best player. Having said that I don't think using FG + FT/2 is the best way to gauge this. You miss out on and 1s, extra ft when you get fouled on a 3, assists and turnovers.

[talkiewalkie]

-= original quote snipped =-



Actually your boy Bgil and G35 said something untrue and I entered.

Thank you so much for being the ultimate purveyor of truth... and smiting all that blaspheme the name of your lord and savior...

The world would be in darkness without you downplaying Kobe and contributing to OT discussion.

[High 5]

I hope he likes being third.

[MartyConlonJr]

I got curious and checked out which teams he has scored 40 points on. The yahoo site only goes back to 99-00 season, but before that he was only averaging 19.9 ppg in 98-99, so i assume that I've written down all his 40+ games. It includes playoffs though, which I don't think were counted in the OP's numbers. Funnily enough (and unless he scored 40+ on them in hist first 3 seasons) the only team in the league he hasn't dropped 40 on is Atlanta.

7 times - Seattle, Golden State, Houston
6 times - Phoenix, Sacramento
5 times - LA Clippers, San Antonio, Utah
4 times - Dallas, Denver, Memphis, New York, Portland, Toronto
3 times - Boston, Washington
2 times - Minnesota, Philadelphia
1 time, Charlotte, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Indiana, Miami, Milwaukee, New Jersey, Orlando
Never - Atlanta

[Phil Jackson]

It's sad that Michael Jordan had to try so hard.

Kobe Bryant was born the Greatest of All Time.

[High 5]

I got curious and checked out which teams he has scored 40 points on. The yahoo site only goes back to 99-00 season, but before that he was only averaging 19.9 ppg in 98-99, so i assume that I've written down all his 40+ games. It includes playoffs though, which I don't think were counted in the OP's numbers. Funnily enough (and unless he scored 40+ on them in hist first 3 seasons) the only team in the league he hasn't dropped 40 on is Atlanta.

7 times - Seattle, Golden State, Houston
6 times - Phoenix, Sacramento
5 times - LA Clippers, San Antonio, Utah
4 times - Dallas, Denver, Memphis, New York, Portland, Toronto
3 times - Boston, Washington
2 times - Minnesota, Philadelphia
1 time, Charlotte, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Indiana, Miami, Milwaukee, New Jersey, Orlando
Never - Atlanta

That's really funny because when I was watching the highlights of that Raptors game and I saw his 40+ stat I was trying to remember a game where Kobe was unconscious against the Hawks and I couldn't think of one. Now I know why.

[tkb]

-= original quote snipped =-



That's really funny because when I was watching the highlights of that Raptors game and I saw his 40+ stat I was trying to remember a game where Kobe was unconscious against the Hawks and I couldn't think of one. Now I know why.

Came close once when he dropped 39 points and 9 assists while missing 6 free throws. Should have made it that game.

[G35]

-= original quote snipped =-



Actually your boy Bgil and G35 said something untrue and I entered.

Actually you just don't like hearing the truth and then you go on your biased contentions.

Point blank questions would Michael 30 ppg playing with Shaq. Would Michael have as many 40 point games playing with Shaq.

Answer that with yes or no and not some statistical rant and we'll see whether you can be honest or not......

[JordansBulls]

-= original quote snipped =-




Actually you just don't like hearing the truth and then you go on your biased contentions.

Point blank questions would Michael 30 ppg playing with Shaq. Would Michael have as many 40 point games playing with Shaq.

Answer that with yes or no and not some statistical rant and we'll see whether you can be honest or not......

Sure he would. He had the efficiency of a Center. The highest PER, etc.
Also of importance would be that MJ was older than Shaq making it his team. From 1996-1998 Shaq would have been the #1 option as MJ got older but MJ would have still averaged the numbers he had or even better.
Think of it this way: The year Pippen missed 44 games, MJ averaged 28.7 ppg, but every other year he played with Pippen, he would averaged virtually 30 ppg. Now why all of a sudden did he average less with another guy who could score? Sure he was older but having another capable guy takes pressure off of you when older.
Imagine him playing with Shaq, how do you defend them with MJ driving and scoring or dishing to Shaq? It would be very easy for both MJ and Shaq to average 30 ppg. He even said that himself. Would his average be as high? Well if he only played 8 years with him, he would average around 30-32 ppg with prime Shaq.

[Jordan23Forever]

-= original quote snipped =-

Point blank questions would Michael 30 ppg playing with Shaq.

Umm, considering that Kobe, a much less efficient player, averaged 30 ppg one year and 28.5 ppg another year alongside Shaq, I see no reason why Jordan wouldn't have averaged at least 30. Why do you think he wouldn't have, given these facts?

He wouldn't average what he did (37 ppg, 35 ppg etc.), but he'd regularly be in the 29-31.5 ppg range, and on stunning efficiency due to Shaq's presence.

Would Michael have as many 40 point games playing with Shaq.

Probably not, which is why in the interest of fairness I've only compared their number of 40 point games since Shaq left (using an analogous time during Jordan's career, i.e., when he was the only legit scoring threat, as Kobe has been since Shaq left).

[Bgil]

Umm, considering that Kobe, a much less efficient player, averaged 30 ppg one year and 28.5 ppg another year alongside Shaq, I see no reason why Jordan wouldn't have averaged at least 30. Why do you think he wouldn't have, given these facts?

Kobe averaged 30ppg because Shaq was injured and out of shape for much of the season and Phil fully turned the team over to Kobe. Kobe went through that 40 point streak and the only thing that stopped Kobe then was Shaq's jealous bitching about "not guarding the yard".
Kobe's skillset is also different than Jordan's. He didn't have to kick Shaq out of the post in order to score 30+. And he provided the Lakers outside shooting in order to allow Shaq to score 28.

I don't see Jordan doing either as well as Kobe.

But the larger issue here is why you keep trying to say Jordan would have done x in this era despite the fact that he didn't do it in his era (the era of run and gun... no defense etc). Jordan's not playing now and never will again. You just sound like all those Wilt fanatics that believe he would have been just as dominant today as he was when they're were only 12-16 teams.

[Bgil]

-= original quote snipped =-



Actually your boy Bgil and G35 said something untrue and I entered.

bull. I didn't say anything untrue. I just said something that didn't paint Jordan as GOD and you took issue with it. Jordan played in an era of no defense and super-scoring... not totally unlike Wilt. That inflated his stats just like it did everyone else in that era. Live with it. Jordan's not coming back.

[JordansBulls]

-= original quote snipped =-



bull. I didn't say anything untrue. I just said something that didn't paint Jordan as GOD and you took issue with it. Jordan played in an era of no defense and super-scoring... not totally unlike Wilt. That inflated his stats just like it did everyone else in that era. Live with it. Jordan's not coming back.

Let's see Kobe go against the Pistons with Laimbeer clotheslining him in the lane. Or dealing with the Knicks and Heat. Would Kobe step up to Xavier McDaniel? I don't think so. Or what about dealing with a guy like Alonzo Mourning throwing down elbows?
Kobe and the wing guys today have it easy. They know the league doesn't tolerate fighting and thus he has no fear of getting into one. Much easier to play the game when you don't have to worry about someone trying to kill you on the court.

Jordan played in an era where guys could actually hit open shots and make buckets. Nowadays guys are wide open can't even hit shots.

As far as MJ being GOD, I've never said anything of the liking. You are the one who instigates that Kobe is as good as him or any of the other legends in Magic, Kareem, Wilt or Bird when he hasn't proven anything as the best on his team.

[Jordan23Forever]

I don't see Jordan doing either as well as Kobe.

Of course you don't. You're Bgil.

Fact is, the post didn't become the staple of Jordan's game until the second three-peat. From age 24-30 he would have functioned just fine alongside Shaq in the same role. Jordan would penetrate against the single coverage Shaq guaranteed him every time, and he would either finish or dump it off to Shaq for a guaranteed finish every time. Simple, really.

Most people who aren't biased Laker/Kobe fans realize this.

But the larger issue here is why you keep trying to say Jordan would have done x in this era despite the fact that he didn't do it in his era (the era of run and gun... no defense etc).

I like all of your leading remarks ("no defense" etc., even as perimeter players are putting up huge lines in record numbers the past few years since the rule changes). That aside, what exctly have I tried to suggest Jordan would do/average today that he didn't in his own era? I'm not one of the "Jordan would average 40 ppg today!" folks, you know.

I also like the "no defense" statement based on team scoring, when a big reason why team scoring was higher was because there was a greater concentration of talent on each team (i.e., more guys who could score 13-18 ppg on any given night). Contract the league by 4-5 teams and distribute that talent to the other teams and tell me how defenses fare when instead of simply having to concentrate on containing one or two guys they have 4-5 players who are threats on the court. Team ppg would increase -- maybe not to what it was (there is something to be said for better scouting/preparation/focus on defense, just not to the degree you're assuming), but it would increase.


I also like how there's a greater incidence (an explosion, really) of perimeter players having high scoring games the last few seasons than ever before, yet defense back then against individual players (not to be confused with team average ppg, as I've shown) was somehow weak. Totally bogus logic, that.

Jordan's not playing now and never will again. You just sound like all those Wilt fanatics that believe he would have been just as dominant today as he was when they're were only 12-16 teams.

Jordan would still do what he did back then. There are perimeter players today (e.g., Kobe/Lebron) who can approximate his production and/or impact, but they're not him as a total package (Lebron has the production, Kobe has the defense and clutchness). So in that sense he wouldn't be as unique, but he wouldn't be viewed as any less of a player, since it was what he did on the court -- not his uniqueness as a perimeter player -- that made him what he is, and what the majority of fans (save for Bilge and G35) believe him to be, which is at worst a top 3 player all time.

I know it must burn.

[Jules Winnfield]

It is definitely one phase of Bryant

[G35]

-= original quote snipped =-



Jordan would still do what he did back then. There are perimeter players today (e.g., Kobe/Lebron) who can approximate his production and/or impact, but they're not him as a total package (Lebron has the production, Kobe has the defense and clutchness). So in that sense he wouldn't be as unique, but he wouldn't be viewed as any less of a player, since it was what he did on the court -- not his uniqueness as a perimeter player -- that made him what he is, and what the majority of fans (save for Bilge and G35) believe him to be, which is at worst a top 3 player all time.

I know it must burn.

That's the issue I have with Jordan fans; I don't have any issue with MJ being ranked #1 (even though it's very subjective and only an opinion) or top 3 or where ever.

It's the Jordan can do anything better than any other player attitude.

Like if someone says Kobe is a better outside shooter than Jordan, Jordan fans would freak out and call you an idiot.

Or Jerry West was a better clutch shooter.

Richard Hamilton a better mid range shooter.

Lebron James is a better finisher.

I don't think Jordan was the best at any one thing but he had the best package of IQ, getting to the basket, handling, body control, shooting etc etc that has ever played. Plus the killer instinct is well documented.

But Jordan fans don't want to hear anything other than Jordan is the best at everything or it knocks their whole world off balance.........

[EHL]

-= original quote snipped =-



Why don't you just use Usage rate instead of that formula (which is incredibly flawed IMO)?

Using usage rate, Kobe's 2nd most prolific season when it comes to percentage of team possessions used is less prolific than Jordan's 7th most prolific one.

Now, having a high usage rate isn't a bad thing. You generally want the ball in the hands of your best player. Having said that I don't think using FG + FT/2 is the best way to gauge this. You miss out on and 1s, extra ft when you get fouled on a 3, assists and turnovers.

He knows he's leaving all of those things out, that's why he posted it in the first place. I've said it before and I'll say it again; J23F is a paid Jordan shill, I'm sure of it.

[Hoops Pimp]

Congrats to Kobe. MJ will always be the greatest in my mind but when I watch Kobe play and get into one of his zones like he has been in the last few games it is hard to imagine anyone being better. Teams basically have no shot at winning when he gets it going and does things I have never seen MJ do.

Kobe took a team that went to the Western Conference Finals to 7 games with:

Smush Parker (Worst PG in the League and got him a new contract)
Kwame Brown (Worst Player in the League as people now realize)

Is Kobe better than Jordan? IMO no.
Is Kobe the best of his generation? Not even close and that is all you can hope to be.

Kobe will get his 4th Championship this year if the Lakers get healthy. For people bashing Kobe, just hope the Lakers are not playing the team you root for in the Playoffs.

[Heat3]

Congrats to Kobe. More remarkable is how just 6 months ago he was taking a dump on his teammates and fans, yet the supporters are still here. Kobe got something about him alright lol