Odom Playing Small Forward

[EHL]

Ariza also learned to cut hard and fast within days/weeks of coming to the Lakers, recognizing that his jumper is shaky. LO, who has always had a shaky jumper, doesn't recognize this reality and doesn't cut or move off the ball aggressively, consistently, after 4 years in the triangle. Pretty unacceptable in most people's mind that Ariza gets that aspect of his duties, yet Lamar still doesn't. There is no excuse for that after so many seasons. But maybe he'll finally get it this year? Of course, if that were to happen, there would still be no excuse for him taking this long to learn it.

[EHL]

Another quote from Tex and Phil out of the archives, to show that their criticism is hardly related to who stays and goes around here, or their true estimation of a player (even if he does disappoint them):

The last time the Los Angeles Lakers mattered, of course, it was Kobe who tore them apart. Not alone, because it was L.A., where every drama has multiple actors. But in the 2004 Finals, after three titles in four years, the pull between Shaq and Kobe ripped the team apart at the seams. Lakers coaches and players alike complained that the structure of the offence was being torn apart, chiefly by one guy. Nobody named names, but back then, he wore No. 8.

"We can't continue to play that way," said Lakers assistant coach Tex Winter, the architect of the triangle offence, at the time. "The ball has to be moved."

"You know, moving the ball if you're double-teamed ... that's the difficulty of coaching superstars," Jackson said. "They have to understand that there's still a fine line that they have to walk. I would hate to name names. I can give initials, though."

We dumped Shaq, kept Kobe, and the rest is history. Tex and Phil have their issues with Lamar right now, obviously, whether shooting or cutting, but it doesn't mean they don't greatly value him, don't think he can do it, or don't think he'll turn it around.

We already know that Mitch has extended a butt slap to Lamar to keep his head up and prove to everyone what we know he can do, so the front office has certainly not given up on Lamar Odom, though the financial realities will eventually come calling, making it all the more important for Lamar to perform at a high level and help us to a championship.

Was any of that supposed to help your argument? Bryant's worst series, in which Tex also chided Shaq for not moving the ball (Shaq averaged 1.2 apg that series), has to be balanced with Bryant's role, which is totally different from Odom's. Your interpretation of Phil and Tex's opinion on LO is a rosy one, one that isn't balanced with the reality that they can't too harshly criticize Odom publicly, they literally have to be kind with him, and even then it's clear where their expectations lie. They've shown disappointment and bewilderment, especially Winters.

[EHL]

1.6 apg, actually.

[critical_beatdown]

I just want to point out that the "lucky hot streak" you're talking about lasted 4 months of regular season play, 2 at the end of the 05-06 season and 2 to begin the 06-07 season, and that's without any shoulder surgery or rehab inbetween, so if Lamar does get "hot" again in March and April, does that say more about him being inconsistent, or more about him taking a certain amount of time to adjust and get his rhythm back after shoulder surgery/rehab.

If this were to happen twice in a row, where several months into a season Lamar finds a rhythm with his jump shot (which cannot be solely measured by his trey accuracy, since he doesn't take than many treys in the first place), which carries forward for a couple months and then continues the following season for another couple months with no interruption to his offseason, then that would be quite a coincidence, wouldn't it?

As for the playoffs, Lamar did struggle from deep in that 7-game series, shooting 20% from trey, but he was phenomenal inside to the tune of 78%, and here is his shooting breakdown (JUMP represents jump shots that are not treys):

TREY: 20% (6-30)
JUMP: 37% (10-27)
INSD: 78% (33-42)

So sure he struggled with the jump shot in this series, but more than made up for it by being absolutely phenomenal inside, ending up shooting 50% overall, and was our best starter in terms of "net +/- per 100 possessions"), so Lamar definitely had a huge impact in us almost winning this series, and it was players other than Kobe and Lamar who were found wanting.

http://www.82games.com/0506/playoffs/05LAL8D.HTM (Lamar)
http://www.82games.com/0506/playoffs/05LAL4D.HTM (Kobe)

[critical_beatdown]

But maybe he'll finally get it this year? Of course, if that were to happen, there would still be no excuse for him taking this long to learn it.

Who cares about excuses, we just want him to do it. Let's hope he does.

[critical_beatdown]

Your interpretation of Phil and Tex's opinion on LO is a rosy one, one that isn't balanced with the reality that they can't too harshly criticize Odom publicly, they literally have to be kind with him, and even then it's clear where their expectations lie. They've shown disappointment and bewilderment, especially Winters.

Tex has clearly seemed bewildered and disappointed with Kobe in the past, and Kobe also had to be handled with kid gloves as he was approaching his extension.

Obviously the circumstances are different, and levels of play different (Kobe is a superstar, Lamar is a star at best), and even mental aspect and confidence different (Kobe never worrying about being cold, Lamar letting it impact him), but the point is that even with "kid gloves" Tex and Phil have openly criticized Kobe's play in the past, and even after Shaq was gone, and it doesn't mean they want to trade him, or the front office does, and neither does it mean that when they criticize Lamar, he is imminently on his way out or can't do it.

If anything, I interpret Tex's latest comments as being worried that the FO may change their mind about Lamar if he doesn't turn it around, and the promise and potential we saw in optimizing him on our team and with Kobe lost, though obviously the addition of Gasol would soften that blow, but it is still interesting that in his ecstasy at the arrival of Pau, Tex was obviously worried about losing Lamar (as for Luke, his contract isn't going anywhere unless he plays stellar, so there's less to worry about, and Tex is a big admirer of Luke's game too).

[milesfides]

Interesting points, but I think a distinction has to be made here.

If I recall correctly, Tex criticized Kobe's willingness to trust his teammates and his defense.

Tex has criticized Odom's fundamental grasp of the offense, and his future with the team.

Secondly, Kobe actually responds to Tex's criticisms. Kobe has shown a remarkable increase in trusting his teammates, and he's clearly stepped up his defense.

Odom? Still hasn't shown much improvement - in fact, has shown some serious regression and other drawbacks to his game.

The thing is, even after Tex criticizes Kobe, he also says he's perfect for the triangle. Tex always wants Kobe to play better, because he knows he can. On the other hand, he can't figure out Odom at all.

I think Tex's assessment of Odom is far more troubling.

[critical_beatdown]

I think Tex's assessment of Odom is far more troubling.

I do too, and I wasn't trying to equate the two, just pointing out that Phil and Tex have very publicly criticized Kobe on occasion too, including after the failed 04 postseason when we ended up dumping Shaq, and none of that really meant anything about whether the front office intended on keeping Kobe (for Phil, perhaps it can be said he was ready to unload Kobe).

Odom has not "grown" into the Tri as fast as Kobe, but he has "grown" into it, according to Tex a few seasons ago, and now we're just trying to maximize him and get him to master the offense, as well as not to defer to Kobe too much.

Where Lamar has gone backwards is mostly in his shooting, not in his Tri knowledge or comfort level, since he looks just fine in it lately, aside from not being aggressive enough, which has always been a concern of ours.

I just think that aside from Tex's criticisms about Lamar's smarts when it comes to cutting off the ball, the coaching staff is not really concerned about Lamar not "getting" the Triangle or going backwards in it, they are far more concerned with him being more aggressive around Kobe and finding his shot again (these concerns not having much to do with any particular offense).

[EHL]

I just want to point out that the "lucky hot streak" you're talking about lasted 4 months of regular season play, 2 at the end of the 05-06 season and 2 to begin the 06-07 season, and that's without any shoulder surgery or rehab inbetween, so if Lamar does get "hot" again in March and April, does that say more about him being inconsistent, or more about him taking a certain amount of time to adjust and get his rhythm back after shoulder surgery/rehab.

If this were to happen twice in a row, where several months into a season Lamar finds a rhythm with his jump shot (which cannot be solely measured by his trey accuracy, since he doesn't take than many treys in the first place), which carries forward for a couple months and then continues the following season for another couple months with no interruption to his offseason, then that would be quite a coincidence, wouldn't it?

It didn't last 4 months, it lasted March and half of April (6 weeks) in 2006. What was Odom shooting in November and and half of December of 2006 (he went down with the MCL injury against the Rockets December 12th)? Because I believe it wasn't close to the ridiculous 3-point shooting tear in March/April 06, though I do believe it was pretty high (like high 30's). So at most that's 3 months, but not at the same ridiculous % if memory serves. Besides, he stunk it up the rest of the year and it continued into this year. There aren't any excuses for that, shoulder surgery or rehab, none. Plenty of players can play through those sorts of injuries, he had full range of motion and has had full range of motion all 41 games this season. Like I said before, no where is it written that you can't have a consistent jumper if you aren't able to practice in the offseason. And besides, Odom suffered a knee injury in December 06 and came back shooting mediocre, so there was no shoulder injury excuse for that intermediate period before he injured it (again) later on in 06-07.

As for the playoffs, Lamar did struggle from deep in that 7-game series, shooting 20% from trey, but he was phenomenal inside to the tune of 78%, and here is his shooting breakdown (JUMP represents jump shots that are not treys):

TREY: 20% (6-30)
JUMP: 37% (10-27)
INSD: 78% (33-42)

So sure he struggled with the jump shot in this series, but more than made up for it by being absolutely phenomenal inside, ending up shooting 50% overall, and was our best starter in terms of "net +/- per 100 possessions"), so Lamar definitely had a huge impact in us almost winning this series, and it was players other than Kobe and Lamar who were found wanting.

http://www.82games.com/0506/playoffs/05LAL8D.HTM (Lamar)
http://www.82games.com/0506/playoffs/05LAL4D.HTM (Kobe)

He won't be getting easy inside opportunities against elite defensive teams in the playoffs, which is why I mentioned the fact that he hasn't ever had a consistent jumper when it mattered most; in the postseason. That's a concern since he's now a 3. If he were a 4, that would be less of a concern. It's hugely critical to the Lakers if he can't shoot above 30% from the 3-point line, consistently, during the postseason.

[EHL]

-= original quote snipped =-



Tex has clearly seemed bewildered and disappointed with Kobe in the past, and Kobe also had to be handled with kid gloves as he was approaching his extension.

Obviously the circumstances are different, and levels of play different (Kobe is a superstar, Lamar is a star at best), and even mental aspect and confidence different (Kobe never worrying about being cold, Lamar letting it impact him), but the point is that even with "kid gloves" Tex and Phil have openly criticized Kobe's play in the past, and even after Shaq was gone, and it doesn't mean they want to trade him, or the front office does, and neither does it mean that when they criticize Lamar, he is imminently on his way out or can't do it.

If anything, I interpret Tex's latest comments as being worried that the FO may change their mind about Lamar if he doesn't turn it around, and the promise and potential we saw in optimizing him on our team and with Kobe lost, though obviously the addition of Gasol would soften that blow, but it is still interesting that in his ecstasy at the arrival of Pau, Tex was obviously worried about losing Lamar (as for Luke, his contract isn't going anywhere unless he plays stellar, so there's less to worry about, and Tex is a big admirer of Luke's game too).

Criticism of Kobe, as miles said, is completely different and 100% excusable. Kobe integrated his game as facilitator/PG for the first 3-peat, turned on the green light as a scorer in 02-03, become a pseudo-1st option in 03-04 with Malone/Payton, and then went back to green light in 05-06 and 06-07. Kobe has shown the ability to adapt to roles within the context of the O, year-to-year. Improved his long-ball, improved his defense (finally) this season, changed his style of play multiple times depending on the scenario, etc.

So, once you realize the context of Tex and Phil's criticisms, they're not really comparable to LO. In one scenario, it's "Kobe needs to play more aggressive D" or "Kobe needs to trust his teammates more often and not take the tough shot". That's all well and good, because those are certainly flaws. Thing is, he has vastly improved on those things (though D is tough to improve with a large scoring load, so that was forgivable in 05-06 and 06-07 even if he made All D 1st Teams). The context of Tex and Phil's criticism of LO is in the context of fundamentals; "He doesn't change his cutting habits" (Tex) or just recently "Get assertive (or aggressive, can't remember) LO!", which Phil yelled at LO in last week's Pistons game after he got discouraged early. These are completely different levels of criticism.

That is, the average NBA player can improve their game year-to-year, integrate themselves into a system, stay focused, etc. For a player of Odom's physical capabilities, the fact that he seems to be worse than the average player at all these things is discouraging, and Tex and Phil both agree with that pretty clearly.

[milesfides]

From the most recent interview with Lazenby:

[EHL]

^ Yes, that is exactly what worries me. CB does acknowledge this, to his credit.

In any case, statistically or otherwise, to me this season has been a huge disappointment for LO. He came in talking a big game, had the star on his head, and to me is was discouraging to see his jumper had regressed so badly, and is still that way 41 games in. That he didn't add anything to his game during the summer, like develop his off hand since his left shoulder was rehabbing (the only real thing he could have worked on, so his poor jumper initially was half excusable).

But with Tex's comments above, and Kupchak's recent musing about Odom still being capable of staying with the team despite Gasol coming aboard (which naturally raises the question, are LO's days are numbered?), to me is worrisome. Because I'd love for LO to stay a Laker for life in a much reduced role, $7M per year. It's just that we'd be dependent on him in whatever role he finds for himself, like if he were to start shooting jumpers better. But what if that disappears in the playoffs, because he has never relied on that aspect of his game in the postseason? I don't want to rely on an Odom jumper in the playoffs for a W, no way no how. And I have a feeling that no matter how poorly Odom is shooting from outside, that Phil will try and give him confidence to hit a shot late in a game. That scares me.

[critical_beatdown]

Latest from Tex:

Meanwhile, Winter softened his comments a bit about forward Lamar Odom.

[B-Scott]

So since Tex Winter is correct about everything,then that means he was correct about Wade being the best SG in the NBA. Cmon now you cant pick and choose what you want to believe.

Bottom line is Pau Gasol is soft on the boards as proven against Al Horford and Lamar being a dominant rebounder to help him out is a big impact for this team.

EHL - I thought you played ball. I have never heard of anyone who played basketball on a regular basis who cant appreciate someone putting up 12 to 15 rebound games.

Usually its a youngster who only cares about scoring and ignores rebounding.

[B-Scott]

EHL - You make the injury excuse for Kobe,but not for Lamar.

Lamar had a much more serious injury then just a little pinky injury. I dislocated my picky also about 2 weeks ago. I taped it up and my jumper is still money. Its not affecting my shot

The dude missed all of training camp,didnt pick up a basketball for 5 months and you expect him to get his offense clicking right off the bat.

Kobe gets a little pinky injury and if he shoots horribly,that will be the excuse for the next 10 games. So predictable

[blix]

So since Tex Winter is correct about everything,then that means he was correct about Wade being the best SG in the NBA. Cmon now you cant pick and choose what you want to believe.

Except nobody's really arguing with him except for you. I sometimes wonder how much mental energy it takes you to breathe.

[blix]

EHL - You make the injury excuse for Kobe,but not for Lamar.

Lamar had a much more serious injury then just a little pinky injury. I dislocated my picky also about 2 weeks ago. I taped it up and my jumper is still money. Its not affecting my shot

The dude missed all of training camp,didnt pick up a basketball for 5 months and you expect him to get his offense clicking right off the bat.

Kobe gets a little pinky injury and if he shoots horribly,that will be the excuse for the next 10 games. So predictable

Ok...I just fell over laughing.

[B-Scott]

-= original quote snipped =-



Except nobody's really arguing with him except for you. I sometimes wonder how much mental energy it takes you to breathe.

Thanks for wondering about my mental energy. I appreciate it

Nobody is replying to his points because they probably agree with him.

Like i said, Pau Gasol is soft when it comes to rebounding,so (without Bynum) Lamar's rebounding should be appreciated

Watch Dwight Howard have 20 boards tonight. Hopefully we can overcome that and still win the game

[LLcoleJ]

So since Tex Winter is correct about everything,then that means he was correct about Wade being the best SG in the NBA. Cmon now you cant pick and choose what you want to believe.

Possibly the quote of the year!

[LLcoleJ]

Oh btw, you B-Scott, you cant just pick and choose specific games and make valid argument about Gasol's rebounding. Regardless, if Horford had a great rebounding game, Gasol still averages 9 boards a game much like LO. Adding Bynum to the mix will make only help with that cause.

You can just pick and choose what you want to believe based on one game AND going into a game with the Dhoward and say.. " watch, Howard will get 20" umm. of course he will, he is the best rebounder in the game.