Lamar in a perfect situation now!

[EHL]

Since Odom is the "4th option"--when it comes to who takes the last shot of the game--that defines him, his career, and his value to this team? Seriously, how much sense does that make?

I don't understand the constant criticism of his "consistency". His averages show he has consistently put up 15/9/5 per game over his 9 year career. how much better of an indicator can we use to define consistency when we have his career per game averages?

James Worthy has had a prestigious career, and is one of the all time Laker greats. I'm not trying to take anything away from him. What I'm trying to highlight is his equivalent value using (PER) which embodies all of the statistics we use to quantify a players production level.

Odom's game isn't as aesthetically pleasing, but he has an equivalent level of production to James Worthy.

Using Worthy's all time career accolades--to defend your point, in context of this argument--doesn't make any sense, and I shouldn't have to explain why.

You can use Worthy's accomplishments up to the same age that Odom is now (28 ), and his still blows his out of the water. Also, Worthy played at another level in the playoffs, bringing his FG% up to 57% and 59% during two separate postseasons, once during a title run, scoring 24-25 ppg in the process and winning a Finals MVP in addition to that. Worthy's far superior postseason success deep in the playoffs against far superior defensive teams than the ones Odom has faced is exactly why he is as legendary as they come in comparison to LO. And statistically that amounts to PERs over 20, while LO's career Laker average is a PER of 16.5. That, my friend, is a large difference.

You using Worthy's career PER is misleading, btw, since that includes his declining years as well. Oh, and LO averaged $12M a year since signing his contract with the Heat, not $11M. That is overpaid given his production, and will be extremely overpaid when he's a 4th option. That's why Kupchak recently said LO can "still" have a place on the team, answering questions about whether he has now become more expendable.

[davidse]

well nobody seems to realize just how much the Gasol trade raised his value to the team.


less shots with more efficiency. he is perfect next to Gasol and Kobe, and soon to be, Bynum

reading the first part of your post - i almost thought you got it.

but then you mentioned bynum...

wow - odom playing better at power forward with a legit second option center next to him !
who would have thought
all he's expected to do is rebound well, and score occasionaly (what he's allways been doing basicaly) and he's actually doing that ! yeah, huge surprize there...

but the fact that people assume that this has ANYTHING to do with what happens when bynum comes back and odom moves to small forward where his biggest contribution should be making sure his man doesnt double team other players and cloggs the lane - is hillarious.
absolulty hilarious.

wow, odom is actually playing better at POWER FORWARD now that he has one of the best offensive bigs in the league next to him.
who would have believed...

[blix]

Since Odom is the "4th option"--when it comes to who takes the last shot of the game--that defines him, his career, and his value to this team? Seriously, how much sense does that make?

I'm not going over it again - you're either not reading or you don't get it. I can't be any more clear as to what I'm talking about.

You can use Worthy's accomplishments up to the same age that Odom is now (28 ), and his still blows his out of the water. Also, Worthy played at another level in the playoffs, bringing his FG% up to 57% and 59% during two separate postseasons, once during a title run, scoring 24-25 ppg in the process and winning a Finals MVP in addition to that. Worthy's far superior postseason success deep in the playoffs against far superior defensive teams than the ones Odom has faced is exactly why he is as legendary as they come in comparison to LO. And statistically that amounts to PERs over 20, while LO's career Laker average is a PER of 16.5. That, my friend, is a large difference.

You using Worthy's career PER is misleading, btw, since that includes his declining years as well. Oh, and LO averaged $12M a year since signing his contract with the Heat, not $11M. That is overpaid given his production, and will be extremely overpaid when he's a 4th option. That's why Kupchak recently said LO can "still" have a place on the team, answering questions about whether he has now become more expendable.

I'm glad someone gets the point, but I'm done going back and forth on it. You (KobeFan) think LO gets a bad rap, fine. Makes no difference to me - I believe he's overpaid for what he brings to the table, especially when mistakes can cost you the ultimate prize. Comparing LO to JW is insulting to JW and if you're having a hard time seeing that then, again, fine.

[blix]

That right there ^, is a good post.

Blind squirrel, nut theory.

[KobeFan]

-= original quote snipped =-



You can use Worthy's accomplishments up to the same age that Odom is now (28 ), and his still blows his out of the water. Also, Worthy played at another level in the playoffs, bringing his FG% up to 57% and 59% during two separate postseasons, once during a title run, scoring 24-25 ppg in the process and winning a Finals MVP in addition to that. Worthy's far superior postseason success deep in the playoffs against far superior defensive teams than the ones Odom has faced is exactly why he is as legendary as they come in comparison to LO. And statistically that amounts to PERs over 20, while LO's career Laker average is a PER of 16.5. That, my friend, is a large difference.

You using Worthy's career PER is misleading, btw, since that includes his declining years as well. Oh, and LO averaged $12M a year since signing his contract with the Heat, not $11M. That is overpaid given his production, and will be extremely overpaid when he's a 4th option. That's why Kupchak recently said LO can "still" have a place on the team, answering questions about whether he has now become more expendable.

Odom's contract is on the books as 6/$65. Regardless of how backloaded his deal is, or how that breaks down annually, at the end of the day he signed a contract that would guarantee him $65 million for the next 6 years in 2003. That comes out to just under $11/season (10.83 million per)

Here's how his salary breaks down so far:
2003-04 $9,960,000
2004-05 $10,548,596
2005-06 $11,465,333
2006-07 $12,348,596

We'll use the prime of Worthy's career:
1985-86 20.4
1986-87 18.4
1987-88 18.2
1988-89 19
1989-90 19.8

Compared to Odom's prime:
2003-04 18.5
2004-05 17.3
2005-06 17
2006-07 16.1
2007-08 (still pending)

I concede, Worthy's day to day production has been consistently better than Odom (only using his prime/best years from 85-86 through 89-90). However, Worthy is a HOF'r, and recognized as one of the better Forwards in the history of the game, just the fact that Odom and Worthy can be compared puts into context how important Odom's skill set is to this basketball team.

[KobeFan]

-= original quote snipped =-



I'm glad someone gets the point, but I'm done going back and forth on it. You (KobeFan) think LO gets a bad rap, fine. Makes no difference to me - I believe he's overpaid for what he brings to the table, especially when mistakes can cost you the ultimate prize. Comparing LO to JW is insulting to JW and if you're having a hard time seeing that then, again, fine.

You've repeated that your trying to tell me or show me something, more than you've actually explained or showed me anything.

I've seen you say Odom dribbles the ball off his leg or feet, so he's a 4th option when the game is on the line. Or he's a "4th option" because he turns the ball over during the game and can't be trusted more than fisher, kobe, pau, or bynum. I don't have the inclination to break down their TO/Game but I know Odom doesn't turn the ball over anymore than the average laker starter.

You use no statistics to back up your blanket statements; you only have anecdotal evidence, and spotty reasoning. Anybody can jump on the web and hate on a players performance, its a whole other issue when somebody challenges those comments.

I think its a good idea that your done responding, you simply don't have a logical argument.

[dockingsched]

sometimes it feels like fans here will jump at the chance to shove any good performance from odom down people's throat just to gloat. it also feels like people want to see odom fail just to be proven right. i'll just cheer for lamar and hope for the best.

[davidse]

-= original quote snipped =-



You can use Worthy's accomplishments up to the same age that Odom is now (28 ), and his still blows his out of the water. Also, Worthy played at another level in the playoffs, bringing his FG% up to 57% and 59% during two separate postseasons, once during a title run, scoring 24-25 ppg in the process and winning a Finals MVP in addition to that. Worthy's far superior postseason success deep in the playoffs against far superior defensive teams than the ones Odom has faced is exactly why he is as legendary as they come in comparison to LO. And statistically that amounts to PERs over 20, while LO's career Laker average is a PER of 16.5. That, my friend, is a large difference.

You using Worthy's career PER is misleading, btw, since that includes his declining years as well. Oh, and LO averaged $12M a year since signing his contract with the Heat, not $11M. That is overpaid given his production, and will be extremely overpaid when he's a 4th option. That's why Kupchak recently said LO can "still" have a place on the team, answering questions about whether he has now become more expendable.

Odom's contract is on the books as 6/$65. Regardless of how backloaded his deal is, or how that breaks down annually, at the end of the day he signed a contract that would guarantee him $65 million for the next 6 years in 2003. That comes out to just under $11/season (10.83 million per)

Here's how his salary breaks down so far:
2003-04 $9,960,000
2004-05 $10,548,596
2005-06 $11,465,333
2006-07 $12,348,596

We'll use the prime of Worthy's career:
1985-86 20.4
1986-87 18.4
1987-88 18.2
1988-89 19
1989-90 19.8

Compared to Odom's prime:
2003-04 18.5
2004-05 17.3
2005-06 17
2006-07 16.1
2007-08 (still pending)

I concede, Worthy's day to day production has been consistently better than Odom (only using his prime/best years from 85-86 through 89-90). However, Worthy is a HOF'r, and recognized as one of the better Forwards in the history of the game, just the fact that Odom and Worthy can be compared puts into context how important Odom's skill set is to this basketball team.

oy vey.

[blix]

KobeFan, since you seem to be the only one not getting my argument, I'll just give this the ol' and be done with it. I'm done speaking to a brick wall. I don't want Odom with the ball in his hands with the game on the line, I've tried to explain this to you a number of different ways. He does enough boneheaded things that it stands out, and not just to me.

Oh, and by the way - this:

You use no statistics to back up your blanket statements; you only have anecdotal evidence, and spotty reasoning. Anybody can jump on the web and hate on a players performance, its a whole other issue when somebody challenges those comments.

Used in conjunction with this:

I don't have the inclination to break down their TO/Game but I know Odom doesn't turn the ball over anymore than the average laker starter.

...really hammers your point home. Good job there.

[zen_4_10]

sometimes it feels like fans here will jump at the chance to shove any good performance from odom down people's throat just to gloat. it also feels like people want to see odom fail just to be proven right. i'll just cheer for lamar and hope for the best.

+ infinity

[KobeFan]

KobeFan, since you seem to be the only one not getting my argument, I'll just give this the ol' and be done with it. I'm done speaking to a brick wall. I don't want Odom with the ball in his hands with the game on the line, I've tried to explain this to you a number of different ways. He does enough boneheaded things that it stands out, and not just to me.

Oh, and by the way - this:

You use no statistics to back up your blanket statements; you only have anecdotal evidence, and spotty reasoning. Anybody can jump on the web and hate on a players performance, its a whole other issue when somebody challenges those comments.

Used in conjunction with this:

I don't have the inclination to break down their TO/Game but I know Odom doesn't turn the ball over anymore than the average laker starter.

...really hammers your point home. Good job there.

LOL now you're just desperate..

Player TO/G
Odom 2.16
Fisher 1.21
Bynum 1.51
Kobe 3.42

[Gerald3Wallace]

-= original quote snipped =-

+ infinity

+1000

u dudes act like he dont step up in playoffs, WHEN IT MATTERS...yeah he should perform well in the season, but does it matter?? we winning ball games so i dont care how much he averaging..and please dont use he should be getting 19/10 since hes getting paid that much...well..we didnt sign him to that contract...miami did..and he averaged 18/10 almost with miami as a first option..dude averaged 19/12 last year in the playoffs...

everything DCASH said was 100000% fact.

[blix]

Since you're acting like you're 7 years old...I'll give you the last word. Yes, I'm desperate. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[KobeFan]

You mean since you don't have a formidable argument you'll give me the last word.

I agree, its a good idea.

[Kirk Moon]

You mean since you don't have a formidable argument you'll give me the last word.

I agree, its a good idea.

here is an idea.
Worthy - top 50 player of all time
Odom - maybe a top 50 player right now. and its a big maybe.

[blix]

You mean since you don't have a formidable argument you'll give me the last word.

I agree, its a good idea.

Very similar to when I'm arguing with my wife and she's wrong. Nobody wins and it's better just to let it lie.

[KobeFan]

-= original quote snipped =-



here is an idea.
Worthy - top 50 player of all time
Odom - maybe a top 50 player right now. and its a big maybe.

Quantify what makes Worthy a top 50 player all time. Statistically he's not much better than Odom.

If we can't use statistics to judge a players impact on a game, what do we use?

[EHL]

Odom's contract is on the books as 6/$65. Regardless of how backloaded his deal is, or how that breaks down annually, at the end of the day he signed a contract that would guarantee him $65 million for the next 6 years in 2003. That comes out to just under $11/season (10.83 million per)

Here's how his salary breaks down so far:
2003-04 $9,960,000
2004-05 $10,548,596
2005-06 $11,465,333
2006-07 $12,348,596

I'm not sure what you're not including his 07-08 salary or his 08-09 salary, as both those seasons are part of his contract. Here's how his salary breaks down so far, as you said:

2003-04 $9,960,000
2004-05 $10,548,596
2005-06 $11,465,333
2006-07 $12,348,596

But when you include this year and next:

2007-2008: $13,524,000
2008-2009: $14,559,000

The total contract ends up being 72.4M over 6 years, which is $12.07M per year; or $12M+ per as I originally accurately stated.

We'll use the prime of Worthy's career:
1985-86 20.4
1986-87 18.4
1987-88 18.2
1988-89 19
1989-90 19.8

Compared to Odom's prime:
2003-04 18.5
2004-05 17.3
2005-06 17
2006-07 16.1
2007-08 (still pending)

I concede, Worthy's day to day production has been consistently better than Odom (only using his prime/best years from 85-86 through 89-90). However, Worthy is a HOF'r, and recognized as one of the better Forwards in the history of the game, just the fact that Odom and Worthy can be compared puts into context how important Odom's skill set is to this basketball team.

None of what you said addressed the fact that Worthy's game in the postseason was far, far superior than anything LO has done in the regular or postseasons, especially deep in the playoffs against elite defensive teams. Your PER comparison on its face is misleading considering Worthy's far superior playoff output and the fact that he was a 3rd option during many of the title runs while LO has been given 1st or 2nd option reins his entire career up until this season. So when you add in his far superior playoff success and intangibles, Worthy absolutely blows Odom out of the water. The fact that we're talking about them in a comparison says nothing about how important LO's skill set is; you are making this ludicrous comparison, no one else is.

Worthy's career accomplishments by 28 (LO's current age) included the following:

All Stars Games: 5
All NBA Teams: 2
Finals MVPs: 1
HOF probability: 83.3% (inducted in 2003)

Odom's career accomplishments by 28 (his current age) include the following:

All Stars Games: 0
All NBA Teams: 0
Finals MVPs: 0
HOF probability: <1%

This comparison is not close in terms of accomplishments, impact, OR statistical output when it matters (postseason). A seriously sad comparison.

[EHL]

Links for your reference:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... hja01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... mla01.html

[snaquille oatmeal]

-= original quote snipped =-



Quantify what makes Worthy a top 50 player all time. Statistically he's not much better than Odom.

If we can't use statistics to judge a players impact on a game, what do we use?

the ignore button