Lamar in a perfect situation now!

[PatrickBateman]

-= original quote snipped =-



I know my Lakers when I see them, and Odom is not half a player Big Game was.

100% true. But who cares? The questions is: Is Lamar Odom the right fit for the 2008 Lakers? I say yes.

[KobeFan]

You know whats funny, I never made an argument that Odom was better than Worthy. I credited him 100x's for his amazing and storied career with the Lakers. And valued everything he's done and the championships he was responsible for bringing to LA.

My whole argument was putting Odom's contributions (statistically) into context, and it turned into multiple pages of worthless rhetoric.

[EHL]

^ If you had been paying attention you would have seen that the relevant statistics in this thread were listed and showed that Worthy was significantly superior statistically. Check back a few pages if you're still confused.

[KobeFan]

Being a 3 time all star isn't a statistic, its an accolade.

I used PER which consolidates all major statistics; Worthy's prime was a notch a head of Odom's with similar seasons in between.

[Sedale Threatt]

James scored 36 points in Game 7 of a championship series.

Lamar's never scored 36 in eight seasons.

That's about the only stat I need to see to compare the two.

[KobeFan]

So then the discussion becomes an argument about what statistics should be weighted more in context of winning: Scoring or Rebs & Assists?

[Sedale Threatt]

It has nothing to do with scoring. It has to do with a hugely important intangible, clutch production, which makes any comparison between the two patently silly.

I appreciate the dirty work that Lamar does, and I sincerely hope he succeeds at the 3 once Bynum comes back. But come on. "Worthy's prime was a notch a head of Odom's"? You can't be serious.

[Sedale Threatt]

Check that. I took the time to read the previous four or five pages, and I guess you can be serious.

[KobeFan]

I enjoy a clutch shot as much as anybody.

However, I don't buy into the idea that a player has a hidden skill to elevate his game during clutch moments. I think you give the ball to the best scorer period, and try to get him an open shot when the game is on the line. If the same course of action was repeated 1,000x's I think the player would make the shot at the same rate of his career averages.

[Sedale Threatt]

Also, regarding PER, it's a very valuable tool to measure the overall impact a player has. But considering Cedric Ceballos (19.33) has a higher rating than Walt Frazier (19.12), Gary Payton (18.87), Chris Mullin (18.77) and Scottie Pippen (18.63), I would hardly consider it infaliable.

So the fact that Lamar and JW are pretty close doesn't mean as much as it might seem, especially when you consider their overall bodies of work -- which several posters took pains to do, but you unfortunately decided to belittle as "worthless rhetoric."

[KobeFan]

How many seasons did Ceballos out produce Payton, Frazier, Pippen and Mullin?

And I did my fair share of research and presenting data. I didn't exclude myself when saying it turned into several pages of worthless rhetoric.

[Milan24]

I enjoy a clutch shot as much as anybody.

However, I don't buy into the idea that a player has a hidden skill to elevate his game during clutch moments. I think you give the ball to the best scorer period, and try to get him an open shot when the game is on the line. If the same course of action was repeated 1,000x's I think the player would make the shot at the same rate of his career averages.

It is not necessary a hidden skill, the difference is during clutch moments there is the added pressure mentally that some people are able to handle and some are not. I guess you might be able to call mental strength a "skill" if you want. Some people thrive with that pressure and some collapse. That is the difference.

[Sedale Threatt]

I enjoy a clutch shot as much as anybody.

However, I don't buy into the idea that a player has a hidden skill to elevate his game during clutch moments. I think you give the ball to the best scorer period, and try to get him an open shot when the game is on the line. If the same course of action was repeated 1,000x's I think the player would make the shot at the same rate of his career averages.

I will respectably disagree. Plus, we're not talking about one specific shot here. We're talking about entire games, over the course of lengthy postseasons. The difference between JW's 17.6 regular-season average and the 21.1 he scored in the postseason is huge.

His 36-point game in 1988 was merely one instance of his very obvious ability to raise his performance when it counted most. If you think it's mere coincidence that this performance also happened to be the only triple double of James' career -- well, again, I'm just going to have to disagree with you.

[KobeFan]

Milan,

I think it makes for a good story when watching games, but in general I don't think there is an intangible of "mental toughness".

I think all players try instinctively to perform during the game whether the game is on the line, or whether a team is in the postseason.

Some times the shot falls some times it doesn't, sometimes players are hot, sometimes they're cold. I respect your different view, but I don't agree with it.

[blix]

Golf is a prime example of mental toughness.....can you measure it? Ultimately no, but to say that it doesn't exist or to pass it off off as coincidence is wrong IMO.

[KobeFan]

I worded that wrong. I know there is mental toughness, however, I don't think it has as significant of an impact on the game as one might lead to believe. I certainly don't rule out that I can be wrong, but I would need to see a study of some sort to change that belief.

Also, basketball and golf require two very different skill sets.

[blix]

Come on man, I know they require 2 different skill sets....John Daly isn't going to post up Farmar anytime soon. I was talking about the mental aspect and how it relates to the pressure of sports. Golf is a very good example. You sound like you have a very scientific view of sports and it goes way beyond that.

[Sedale Threatt]

How many seasons did Ceballos out produce Payton, Frazier, Pippen and Mullin?

And I did my fair share of research and presenting data. I didn't exclude myself when saying it turned into several pages of worthless rhetoric.

The bulk of your argument is based on PER. Again, as important and useful this measure is, it isn't perfect, and it certainly can't be treated as some sort of trump card that wins the argument.

Another example: David Robinson has the fourth-highest career PER in league history. I can think of about 20 players I'd rather build my team around, mainly because he often failed to sustain his regular-season standards in the postseason.

[KobeFan]

Can you see how your perception can be subjective (some Spurs fan might find him to be the guy they'd build a team around, because they saw him hit a game winning shot, or saw his defense step up in clutch moments, or he went on a stretch to lead the spurs to the playoffs when it mattered most..etc) but the numbers might give us a more objective view?

[blix]

Which is why observation doesn't tell the whole story.....as stats don't tell the entire story.